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  #31  
Old 07-03-17, 06:55 PM
coachwhitman coachwhitman is offline
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My understanding is that unless the athlete receives any athletic aid, then the academic aid would not count against the allowable total. Perhaps somebody with more current knowledge would be able to speak to that.


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Originally Posted by madman View Post
Everything you've said is consistent with what I've heard in the past.

However, I know that you've had some experience with NCAA regulations so I've got some questions for you regarding this:

Let's say you have an athlete that has competed for two years without a scholarship and that you have assigned all 12.6 scholarships for the upcoming year. If that athlete finds out in August that they've been given an academic scholarship based on outstanding performance in the classroom, would the coach then be in the position of:
  • Cutting that athlete
  • Terminating aid to/cutting another athlete
  • Telling said athlete they can't accept the award if they want to remain on the team

I understand the by-law is written to prevent less than scrupulous athletic departments from gaming the system, but it seems counter to the purpose of any university to force teams to cut athletes or reduce aid because they've been successful in the classroom.

I've heard it said the first requirement to be an OHSAA commissioner is to be born without a heart. I suppose the same could be true for NCAA officials, but I wonder if there isn't some type of grandfathering for athletes already on the team who happen to win academic $$$s after they've been on the team awhile.
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  #32  
Old 07-03-17, 07:33 PM
cincyrunner cincyrunner is offline
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Getting off topic, who do the Bucks look to right thie ship?
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  #33  
Old 07-03-17, 08:48 PM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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Originally Posted by cincyrunner View Post
Getting off topic, who do the Bucks look to right thie ship?
Is the answer Jesus?
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  #34  
Old 07-03-17, 09:33 PM
madman madman is offline
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Originally Posted by cincyrunner View Post
Getting off topic, who do the Bucks look to right thie ship?
The problem for distance runners is that I think they want to make wine out of water... so maybe Jesus is the answer.

I think Robert Gary could have been successful recruiting the best kids in the nation to OSU, but he almost refused to recruit anyone from outside Ohio's border. It's wishful thinking to believe you can compete with the best teams in the nation by recruiting from just one state.

A coach like Jerry Baltes (Grand Valley) has an incredible history of success at developing distance runners. He might be able to lure the kind of runners necessary to pursue National Championships at the DI level. They would need to offer that kind of coach good money to leave great situations. I don't see that happening. That coach would also have to be able to work as an assistant to Karen Dennis during track. I just can see them lining up to do that.

It might very well be that OSU continues to pursue T&F success through sprints and jumps and accept mediocrity in cross-country/distance events. There are worse sins.
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  #35  
Old 07-03-17, 11:10 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Originally Posted by coachwhitman View Post
My understanding is that unless the athlete receives any athletic aid, then the academic aid would not count against the allowable total. Perhaps somebody with more current knowledge would be able to speak to that.
I just sent an email to a coaching friend to ask this question. I know about the rules for freshmen, wherein academic aid can be exempted from the count under certain conditions (as I said in my earlier post), because I have had some kids I coached who were eligible for full or nearly full academic scholarships. There were a lot of hoops to jump through for that aid to be exempted but it boiled down to demonstrating that being an athlete played no part in their getting the merit based academic aid.As for attracting a top name coach, I can't see that happening both because such a coach would want to be the head coach and because they would have to pay that coach a ton of money. Likely more than the 160K they are paying Karen Dennis. Perhaps they could get a top tier D3 coach, someone with a recent reputation for developing good distance runners. On the other hand such coaches are often able to make a good living at the D3 level without all the job insecurity of D1 coaching.

Last edited by mathking; 07-03-17 at 11:20 PM..
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  #36  
Old 07-04-17, 09:56 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
As for attracting a top name coach, I can't see that happening both because such a coach would want to be the head coach and because they would have to pay that coach a ton of money. Likely more than the 160K they are paying Karen Dennis. Perhaps they could get a top tier D3 coach, someone with a recent reputation for developing good distance runners. On the other hand such coaches are often able to make a good living at the D3 level without all the job insecurity of D1 coaching.
They need a young version of someone like Malone's Jack Hazen.

Jason Maus of Ohio Northern and Kevin Lucas of Mount Union would be good candidates. Jerry Baltes of Grand Valley State is another good coach.
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  #37  
Old 07-04-17, 10:38 AM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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I think there are far too many inherent problems to think there is a quick fix or turnaround. With a sprint centered program distance coaches have to make a quick impact or they are gone. So long term development of good but not great talent is not explored. In contrast they recruit many athletes based upon times alone without thought to how many miles or how much speedwork went into achieving those times in high school. They seem to ignore athletes just a few seconds behind on limited training and go after the fastest no matter how used-up they may be. OSU seems to get a lot of fast high school times talent that does not continue to develop. There are exceptions but this seems to be the norm. We outsiders have hindsight but it seems easy to predict much of this with the backgrounds of many of the top recruits. An urban environment, limited roster size, and other things are also factors. OSU does not have the same pluses as Wisconsin, Michigan, PSU and most other Big 10 schools. There is not an easy fix to this.
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  #38  
Old 07-04-17, 02:28 PM
madman madman is offline
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I will argue a bit with your premise that a 9:10 guy who hasn't trained hard in HS is preferable to one who has, never mind that the former might be as likely as a unicorn. If you looked into the histories of every footlocker finalist for the last 10 years and sorted them on a metric based on some combination of volume and intensity in their high school training, I doubt that there would be an inverse relationship with college achievement.

If you had the ability to bring in that mythical 9:10 guy who has only run 30-35 mpw with just two hard days/wk, I think you're taking a huge flyer to do so. Will they be able to handle the demands of training for 10k on grass? Will they even have the desire to do the increased training required?

I would rather bring in that kid's twin who ran 8:55 on 50-65 mpw with 2-3 hard sessions/wk.

I might even choose their teammate that ran 9:03 on 60-70 mpw and is a bit more emotionally mature, self-motivated, and likely to thrive when mommy and daddy are no longer around.

I spent time as a Fortune 50 company's campus recruiter for engineers from the University of Michigan. There was a threshold on numbers (gpa). Once over that threshold it was never a deciding factor. There were too many other factors to consider in determining who would be the best fit and most likely to thrive in our environment.

I've got to believe any college coach worth their salt only looks at the numbers (times, mpw, etc) to gauge whether a prospect has the physical capability to be successful in their program. Once over that threshold, there are a whole host of other factors that will determine whether a kid will be the right fit and likely to thrive.

Even with hours spent reading through resumes and multiple rounds of subsequent interviews, there was no guarantee that any new hire was going to be a success. I think it usually came down to deciding on a gut level which candidate would I most want to work with.

My sense is that it's not much different in recruiting athletes to top level college athletics. Once you establish the kid has the basic capability to achieve at the right level, it's a gut level call based on many factors that may not be quantiable - do I want this kid on my team?

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Originally Posted by Newton's Third View Post
I think there are far too many inherent problems to think there is a quick fix or turnaround. With a sprint centered program distance coaches have to make a quick impact or they are gone. So long term development of good but not great talent is not explored. In contrast they recruit many athletes based upon times alone without thought to how many miles or how much speedwork went into achieving those times in high school. They seem to ignore athletes just a few seconds behind on limited training and go after the fastest no matter how used-up they may be. OSU seems to get a lot of fast high school times talent that does not continue to develop. There are exceptions but this seems to be the norm. We outsiders have hindsight but it seems easy to predict much of this with the backgrounds of many of the top recruits. An urban environment, limited roster size, and other things are also factors. OSU does not have the same pluses as Wisconsin, Michigan, PSU and most other Big 10 schools. There is not an easy fix to this.
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  #39  
Old 07-04-17, 02:54 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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I don't dispute anything you say. I am saying that without much distance money and even less of a great tradition OSU is not getting Andrew Jordan. They then reach for the 9:10 kid off of high usage tying up money instead of trying to bring in several 9:15-9:20 kids who have never been challenged in training and racing. With Ohio's depth couldn't OSU get 10 of these kids a year if they wanted to and there are not roster restrictions? The reach way hasn't been working. Because the coach has to produce quickly or lose their job they do not have the patience to develop long term talent. A boy from my area of the state wanted to walk on because he was 2 seconds slower in the 1600 than 2 or 3 others on double the training. Coach Allen did not ask one question about his training or racing history according to the boy's father, only how fast did you run. To change the current trend a coach is going to have to hustle in all areas including recruiting and even then it will be tough under the situation. If they keep doing what they have been doing shouldn't they expect the same result?
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  #40  
Old 07-04-17, 04:09 PM
madman madman is offline
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To ensure Title IX compliance, or at least reduce the likelihood of lawsuits, most universities impose very real roster restrictions and those aren't likely to go away.

I would be surprised if many B1G programs would believe that a 9:15-9:20 in high school establishes capability to become competitive in college at that level. There are several universities that publish standards for eligibility to walk on and for consideration for some scholarship money:

NC State: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/...pStandards.pdf

Florida State: http://seminoles.com/fls/32900//pdf/Walkonupdates.pdf

Ohio State: http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/osu/gra...-standards.pdf

University of Michigan: http://www.mgoblue.com/sports/2017/6...-recruits.aspx


Clearly Ohio State isn't even trying to recruit the same kids as programs seeking to get to the NCAA Div I Nationals in the fall, let alone those trying to win. Hoping that a 9:15-9:20 kid is going to progress enough to be competitive with their sub 9:00 peers is a stretch. It's possible, but how do you lay that bet?

Ohio State seems to be admitting that they're not going to be competitive recruiting against these schools in the distance events.
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  #41  
Old 07-04-17, 04:46 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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I agree completely, but the topic is that Brice Allen is out and how to rectify a distance situation at OSU that most feel is broken. I am trying to throw out some new ideas to see if others think they will stick. "They have to get the best talent" does not seem to be working and their development of the talent they are recruiting seems substandard with a few exceptions. Most do not think what they have been trying for many years is working. Are there any other ideas out there?
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  #42  
Old 07-04-17, 10:06 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madman View Post
I will argue a bit with your premise that a 9:10 guy who hasn't trained hard in HS is preferable to one who has, never mind that the former might be as likely as a unicorn. If you looked into the histories of every footlocker finalist for the last 10 years and sorted them on a metric based on some combination of volume and intensity in their high school training, I doubt that there would be an inverse relationship with college achievement.

If you had the ability to bring in that mythical 9:10 guy who has only run 30-35 mpw with just two hard days/wk, I think you're taking a huge flyer to do so. Will they be able to handle the demands of training for 10k on grass? Will they even have the desire to do the increased training required?

I would rather bring in that kid's twin who ran 8:55 on 50-65 mpw with 2-3 hard sessions/wk.

I might even choose their teammate that ran 9:03 on 60-70 mpw and is a bit more emotionally mature, self-motivated, and likely to thrive when mommy and daddy are no longer around.

I spent time as a Fortune 50 company's campus recruiter for engineers from the University of Michigan. There was a threshold on numbers (gpa). Once over that threshold it was never a deciding factor. There were too many other factors to consider in determining who would be the best fit and most likely to thrive in our environment.

I've got to believe any college coach worth their salt only looks at the numbers (times, mpw, etc) to gauge whether a prospect has the physical capability to be successful in their program. Once over that threshold, there are a whole host of other factors that will determine whether a kid will be the right fit and likely to thrive.

Even with hours spent reading through resumes and multiple rounds of subsequent interviews, there was no guarantee that any new hire was going to be a success. I think it usually came down to deciding on a gut level which candidate would I most want to work with.

My sense is that it's not much different in recruiting athletes to top level college athletics. Once you establish the kid has the basic capability to achieve at the right level, it's a gut level call based on many factors that may not be quantiable - do I want this kid on my team?
Madman, most of the college coaches I know (I can think of more than a dozen off the top of my head with whom I have had this conversation) consider the HS training of athletes. That included OSU under Gary and Allen. I think you are right that training isn't the only thing they look at. (How academically capable is definitely important, by the way.) On the other hand, most coaches understand that a kid who ran 4:10 while running 40, 45 or 50 miles per week is looked at differently than a kid who ran 4:10 on 65, 70 or 75 miles per week. I have also been told that almost as important is looking at a kids' improvement progression through high school. It is not an exact science to predict who is going to improve in college, but that is what they are trying to do. Because very few high school distance runners can jump right in at the HS performance level and be stars in college. And while gut instinct plays a part, the volume and intensity of training that an athlete did while in high school absolutely plays a part in recruiting decisions. Particularly in who gets money.

That doesn't always mean that they go with the kid with less training. I have had an athlete recruited by college coach who backed off because the coach was not sure a kid running 45 mpw would be able to jump to 80 mpw. (I will admit to some satisfaction that the kid in question won that conferences 5000 two years in a row, for a different school. Running 50-55-60-65.) I don't always get contacted by coaches who are recruiting one of my athletes, but I am thinking and looking back at the contacts I have had with college coaches about distance runners since the first one (in 1993) through this year. I can't think of one who did contact me that didn't ask me about the kids training volume.
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  #43  
Old 07-04-17, 10:33 PM
madman madman is offline
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I was a bit verbose, but my point - supported by your own experience - was that lower mileage isn't always preferred.

As a high school coach I want my athletes to run fast and, for those with the ability, to be prepared for the rigors of college training.

I have never considered having athletes run the kind of mileage Joe Newton did with his athletes at York. In 35+ years of coaching, I've had 3 athletes run as much as 70 mpw, only one of them was one of 4 individual state champions I've coached. However, I am always conscious of Newton's belief that you never know whether an athlete will ever run another competitive step beyond high school so it's ok to get them to perform as well as they can in high school.

I like to believe that I am always pushing my athletes to progress and that means increasing volume and intensity throughout their career as they are physically, mentally, and emotionally able. I would never consider "saving them" for college. I'm not even sure that's possible. There should be a natural, continual progression.
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  #44  
Old 07-04-17, 10:48 PM
madman madman is offline
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With regard to Newton Third's point, I think it's possible to dramatically improve OSU's distance program, but it will probably take bringing in a head coach that has a history of developing elite distance runners within their programs.

I have absolutely no inside information, but everything I've heard indicates that the athletic program at OSU is happy with Karen Dennis being in charge.

So what would I do if I were Czar at OSU and had to keep Coach Dennis in charge? I would look for a younger coach with an established history of developing elite distance runners who could also be groomed to eventually take over the program once Dennis decides to retire. To the point that was made by someone else earlier, if you bring in a young coach trying to make a name for themselves, there's too much pressure to have near immediate success and an over emphasis on times rather than ensuring a good fit with the program.

Last edited by madman; 07-05-17 at 01:30 AM..
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  #45  
Old 07-05-17, 09:15 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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I am very leery of Newton's ideas about it being OK to get them to run as fast as they can in high school because you don't know if they are ever going to race again. I actually had a good conversation about it with him and several others at a conference once, longer ago than I care to remember. I am leery first because it has always seemed to me to be used as a justification for hurting kids chances beyond high school. Almost as a defense mechanism as in "Yeah this might hurt their long term careers but who knows if they will have one so we should grab what we can now." That seems to me to uncomfortably close to saying my success as a coach is the most important thing. It also says that the kids personal goals don't matter as much as my goals as a coach.

It also bothers me because it reframes the high mileage vs. not high mileage argument in a dishonest way. Basically it seems to me to be an argument that of course really high mileage will always make kids run faster. If you look at the research (and I also look at 27 years of my own data) this is clearly not true. It is pretty clear if you look at available research that every athlete has a point of diminishing returns from training volume. It is also clear that increases in training volume lead to increased risk of injury and increased risk of burnout. So as a coach we should be trying to find the right point, and that is going to be different athlete to athlete. I just know I am not a good enough coach to have my kids do 75-80 (or more) miles per week and have the majority stay healthy.

A couple years ago we had a boy who finished in the top ten in the state for us as a sophomore and a junior, running 40 and 45 miles per week those two years. He would likely have been at 50 or 55 as a senior, but he moved to Texas to a school where he ran 75-80 mpw. His new coach could not believe that he ran as fast as he did here on that low a mileage. He did progress there, running two track and one XC season at the higher mileage and getting 8 seconds faster in XC. He was super rugged, and we felt it was likely he would be OK with the higher mileage. He had a teammate who would absolutely have broken down at anything close to 75-80 mpw (we struggled to keep him healthy at 40 mpw and he lost his senior track season) who improved more and was also top 10 in the state. They both had college careers.

Got an interesting response from a former college coach friend (now in administration): "Of course we look at the whole athlete. Every coach will try to determine if that kid can be successful as a person, as a student and as an athlete in our program and at our school. A lot of factors go into that decision. Any coach that tells you they don't look at HS training volume is a liar or an idiot. Take two kids with the same time. One running 45 miles per week and one running 65 miles per week. Assume that they both have a HS coach who is not an idiot and understands training cycles and periodization. Assume they have a similar number of races. Really what I mean is assume a similar number of top end races. Assuming all that the odds are good the lower mileage kid has more room to improve."
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  #46  
Old 07-05-17, 01:49 PM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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Mileage is an interesting topic, and there are lots of things that go into what's good and what's bad for a high school runner.

It is my experience that there are about as many stories of the 45 MPW high school kid who couldn't handle college-level training as there are about the 80+ MPW kid who just didn't get any better in college.

The fact is that some 45 MPW kids do gradually increase their mileage and perhaps get over 70 MPW during base phase within just a couple years in college and some who ran over 80 MPW in high school continued to get better in college and beyond (Dathan Ritzenhein and Ryan Hall were both mega mileage high school runners who had great college and post college careers).

Another thing to consider is how fast the runs were run. Pushing most runs at 60 MPW isn't the same as running 60 MPW much more slowly.

Having talked to several college coaches recently with "strength-based" programs, two of them said they have athletes currently running up to 110 MPW. A coach like that wouldn't be too concerned with a kid running 60-70 MPW in summer training in high school. Some kids are also more injury prone than others and simply can't ramp up the mileage too much. I think also that if you are going to run a ton of miles that you need to be prepared to get new shoes often. 500 miles on a pair of shoes can come quickly.
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  #47  
Old 07-05-17, 03:17 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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In my experience there are just not many kids who can thrive in high school above 60-70 miles per week. There are certainly some. And I think that coaches need to pay attention to their kids so that kids who can thrive get the chance. We tend to go up 5 mpw per year running for kids. But for some of our better runners they will go up 5 for track season and 5 for XC. (For slower runners who want to improve we really push for them to train a little faster rather than try to run more miles.) When we do that we pay close attention to how healthy they are. There are also kids who don't handle higher mileage well. I have a lot of respect for coaches who differentiate mileage based on the athletes past performance and response to training. Lovecrosscountry, my college coach made athletes who moved up a lot in mileage get two pairs of shoes and alternate runs with them. Each step compacts the shoe material and already compacted material is forced to absorb more stress. Alternating shoes extends their useful life span.

Back on the subject of OSU, it will be interesting to see who they get. I can't see any of the top D3 or non-NCAA coaches wanting to leave unless OSU were paying a lot more money than they have been. As others have said, OSU has chosen to focus on sprints and field events for points. I tend to think they could be smarter in terms of having more competitive teams, but then again that might make them less likely to produce All Americans. In any event, it's not a moral failing. Any more than Wisconsin choosing to focus on distance kids is. Honestly for distance development they would probably be better off (I know they can't really do this) hiring a well respected Ohio coach who could help them recruit Ohio. But who knows, the OSU name and a chance to coach in the Big Ten might attract some good young college coach. Even the great coaches were young and unknown at some time.
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  #48  
Old 07-05-17, 03:41 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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What should be expected of OSU's CC/Distance program? At a starting point, I would say top half of the B1G with a run in the National championship race every 3 years or so. Like anything in Distance running, it takes time and a systematic building. It's not about some big name, but a name that parents and kids are confident will be there all 4 or 5 years they attend the university. The Distance coach position at OSU should not be a stepping stone gig. It should be a position that is a 30 year position. It is going to take someone 12 years or so to gain the confidence and cooperation of HS coaches and to show some progress. New coach every 5 years will not build a program. It will get kids that have had parents that love OSU for other reasons than CC/track, but it won't get kids that are neutral.

There is no realistic way that OSU can become a top team in the conference or the Nation anytime soon. Wisconsin alone is too tough and has too much tradition. OSU might get one or two Blue chippers, but they aren't getting five, seven or even 10 like other schools will get. They need an alumnus that they can stick with and that will stick with them for years and years and build it one step at a time.

Would any of you distance coaches recommend that your top runners go to OSU strictly for the running program?
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  #49  
Old 07-05-17, 03:52 PM
madman madman is offline
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I think a lot of this is spot on; however, what alum has the right kind of credentials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
What should be expected of OSU's CC/Distance program? At a starting point, I would say top half of the B1G with a run in the National championship race every 3 years or so. Like anything in Distance running, it takes time and a systematic building. It's not about some big name, but a name that parents and kids are confident will be there all 4 or 5 years they attend the university. The Distance coach position at OSU should not be a stepping stone gig. It should be a position that is a 30 year position. It is going to take someone 12 years or so to gain the confidence and cooperation of HS coaches and to show some progress. New coach every 5 years will not build a program. It will get kids that have had parents that love OSU for other reasons than CC/track, but it won't get kids that are neutral.

There is no realistic way that OSU can become a top team in the conference or the Nation anytime soon. Wisconsin alone is too tough and has too much tradition. OSU might get one or two Blue chippers, but they aren't getting five, seven or even 10 like other schools will get. They need an alumnus that they can stick with and that will stick with them for years and years and build it one step at a time.

Would any of you distance coaches recommend that your top runners go to OSU strictly for the running program?
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  #50  
Old 07-05-17, 04:01 PM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
In my experience there are just not many kids who can thrive in high school above 60-70 miles per week. There are certainly some. And I think that coaches need to pay attention to their kids so that kids who can thrive get the chance. We tend to go up 5 mpw per year running for kids. But for some of our better runners they will go up 5 for track season and 5 for XC. (For slower runners who want to improve we really push for them to train a little faster rather than try to run more miles.) When we do that we pay close attention to how healthy they are. There are also kids who don't handle higher mileage well. I have a lot of respect for coaches who differentiate mileage based on the athletes past performance and response to training. Lovecrosscountry, my college coach made athletes who moved up a lot in mileage get two pairs of shoes and alternate runs with them. Each step compacts the shoe material and already compacted material is forced to absorb more stress. Alternating shoes extends their useful life span.

Back on the subject of OSU, it will be interesting to see who they get. I can't see any of the top D3 or non-NCAA coaches wanting to leave unless OSU were paying a lot more money than they have been. As others have said, OSU has chosen to focus on sprints and field events for points. I tend to think they could be smarter in terms of having more competitive teams, but then again that might make them less likely to produce All Americans. In any event, it's not a moral failing. Any more than Wisconsin choosing to focus on distance kids is. Honestly for distance development they would probably be better off (I know they can't really do this) hiring a well respected Ohio coach who could help them recruit Ohio. But who knows, the OSU name and a chance to coach in the Big Ten might attract some good young college coach. Even the great coaches were young and unknown at some time.
I agree that not too many HS kids can handle more than 60-70 MPW though most of the top national guys do at least 60 MPW in summer training (but that's a small group compared to the whole). I also agree that alternating shoes is a good idea.

As for OSU, I hope they find a way to turn it around.
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  #51  
Old 07-05-17, 04:09 PM
Castellan Castellan is offline
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Gentlemen, I can feel your distance biases permeating the discussion. There are 21 events in college. 15 of of which are power, short & extended quickness events (Jumps, Throws, Hurdles and Sprints). For the sake of argument, lets lump the 1500 with the 5K, steeple and 10K. Do you really think that OSU success or lack thereof is attributable to not developing distance talent? Where are the throwers? Where are the jumpers, sprinters? I saw this years NCAA's and Nationals. I saw Ohio athletes in the hurdles and sprints representing schools from other states. Quincy Downing, Desmond Palmer & Jamiel Trimble all went out of state. Chad Zallow chose Youngstown State. The schools that seems to do the best with hometown talent in Ohio are Akron, Kent State, Tiffin and Ashland. I wonder what approach those schools are taking.
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Old 07-05-17, 04:38 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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I think a lot of this is spot on; however, what alum has the right kind of credentials?
What credentials are needed? They have to know how to coach first and then build a reputation from there. The Distance program is not successful, so why do they have to go outside and find some smaller school successful coach that no one really knows? It doesn't really need to be an alum, but someone that they stick with and that bleeds OSU. Just like the program will be built on developing less than the top recruits, the coach almost also needs to be that diamond in the rough that develops. Most everyone of us is a much better coach 10 years into it than we were 1 year into it. How about 20 years? There is no lightening in a bottle for OSU. They should have developed someone over the past 15 years that can coach and that loves the place. If not, that is part of the perpetual problem.
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Old 07-05-17, 04:56 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Originally Posted by Castellan View Post
Gentlemen, I can feel your distance biases permeating the discussion. There are 21 events in college. 15 of of which are power, short & extended quickness events (Jumps, Throws, Hurdles and Sprints). For the sake of argument, lets lump the 1500 with the 5K, steeple and 10K. Do you really think that OSU success or lack thereof is attributable to not developing distance talent? Where are the throwers? Where are the jumpers, sprinters? I saw this years NCAA's and Nationals. I saw Ohio athletes in the hurdles and sprints representing schools from other states. Quincy Downing, Desmond Palmer & Jamiel Trimble all went out of state. Chad Zallow chose Youngstown State. The schools that seems to do the best with hometown talent in Ohio are Akron, Kent State, Tiffin and Ashland. I wonder what approach those schools are taking.
The men were 2nd in the B1G outdoor this year and the Women were 4th. They were real strong in the throws in 2016 from what I remember. They did not do well at the National meet this year, but there are ups and downs. Akron and Kent have established coaches. Fanger has been at Kent for at least 12 years that I know of and has their throws program working like a well oiled machine. Not sure it was at that point in his 3rd year. Lawson has probably been at Kent 12 years too. Mitchel has been at Akron 20 years or so. Labadie has to be getting close to 10 years at Akron. A lot of the assistants have been with the programs for some time and they develop athletes into coaches too.
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  #54  
Old 07-05-17, 05:04 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Originally Posted by Castellan View Post
Gentlemen, I can feel your distance biases permeating the discussion. There are 21 events in college. 15 of of which are power, short & extended quickness events (Jumps, Throws, Hurdles and Sprints). For the sake of argument, lets lump the 1500 with the 5K, steeple and 10K. Do you really think that OSU success or lack thereof is attributable to not developing distance talent? Where are the throwers? Where are the jumpers, sprinters? I saw this years NCAA's and Nationals. I saw Ohio athletes in the hurdles and sprints representing schools from other states. Quincy Downing, Desmond Palmer & Jamiel Trimble all went out of state. Chad Zallow chose Youngstown State. The schools that seems to do the best with hometown talent in Ohio are Akron, Kent State, Tiffin and Ashland. I wonder what approach those schools are taking.
Um, the Buckeyes had a bunch of All Americans this year, including shot put, 200 dash, 800 run, both 4x400 relays, men’s 4x100 relay and probably some others I don’t remember. Furthermore, a number of current and former Buckeyes have gone beyond NCAA competition recently. Christina Manning is representing the U.S. in the 100 hurdles (that is really hard to do, since so many of the top hurdlers in the world are Americans) at the World Championships this year. Maggie Barrie will be there representing Sierre Leone in the 400 meters. Michael Hartfield represented the U.S. at the Olympics last year. At the World U-20 Championship last year OSU had three athletes representing the U.S., Nick Gray, Karrington Winters and Sade Olatoye. At the recent U.S. championships OSU had nine current and former athletes competing: Michael Hatfield in the long jump, JC Murasky in the shot put, Christina Manning in the 100 hurdles, Nick Demaline in the shot, Rachel Weber in the 800 meters, Cory Leslie in the 1500 meters, Deshawn Marshall in the 200 dash, Champ Page in the 400 and Zack Bazile in the long jump. So I don't think a blanket condemnation of the program success is warranted.

psychodad, I think getting someone to want to stick around is part of the problem. At OSU, if a coach started to really be successful it might be hard to keep them from going someplace else that will pay more money and offer a chance to give more scholarships. I completely agree that we get better with experience, at least those of us willing to learn from our mistakes and others' successes. All that said, one thing that we tend to forget as HS coaches is how important it is to be a good recruiter. Which is not necesarily the same thing as being a good coach in terms of technical skill or motivation. I can think of a couple of college coaches off the top of my head that were good at some of those and bad at others.
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Old 07-05-17, 05:16 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Yeah, we can't really argue that in other areas besides the distance crews, OSU has had some pretty good success. The distance and CC has even been better in the last 10 years than in years past.
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Old 07-06-17, 05:02 AM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
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Have often wondered about Mark Crogan. Perhaps being from NE Ohio and the stability at Kent is too good a situation to leave . . .


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  #57  
Old 07-06-17, 06:11 AM
madman madman is offline
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Have often wondered about Mark Crogan. Perhaps being from NE Ohio and the stability at Kent is too good a situation to leave . . .


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My old-timers disease is kicking in so my memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to remember that Kent just moved him into an administrative role and out of coaching.
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Old 07-06-17, 06:19 AM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
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My old-timers disease is kicking in so my memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to remember that Kent just moved him into an administrative role and out of coaching.


I could easily be behind-the-times. Thanks for keeping me in the loop.


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  #59  
Old 07-06-17, 06:23 AM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
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My old-timers disease is kicking in so my memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to remember that Kent just moved him into an administrative role and out of coaching.


Yes, you are correct.

http://kentstatesports.com/coaches.a...430&path=cross



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  #60  
Old 07-06-17, 06:24 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Have often wondered about Mark Crogan. Perhaps being from NE Ohio and the stability at Kent is too good a situation to leave . . .


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Mark stepped down at Kent this past Spring, but He's still with the university in another capacity.
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