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  #811  
Old 07-08-19, 12:18 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Can someone explain the new/additional DH rule for HS that OHSAA just announced was passed through after the NFHS passed it in June?

Having umpired for many years from around 1995 until 2010, I read the rule and just don't see what the difference is vs the existing rule.
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Old 07-08-19, 02:26 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Ruling on:

Batted ball hits the bat a second time (bunt came up and hit the bat).

RULING:
1. Batter was still in the batters box and the bat was in his hands.
2. Batter was still in the BB and the bat was NOT in his hands.
3. Batter was out of the BB and the bat was not in his hands.
4. Batter was out of the BB and the bat was IN his hands.


In all these insatnces the batter did NOT intentionally have any actions to hit the bat the second time. I presume if he did it would change the ruling?
  #813  
Old 07-08-19, 05:13 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmog View Post
Can someone explain the new/additional DH rule for HS that OHSAA just announced was passed through after the NFHS passed it in June?

Having umpired for many years from around 1995 until 2010, I read the rule and just don't see what the difference is vs the existing rule.
The existing rule has 9 defensive starters, but 10 starters overall as the DH is a starter. (for re-entry purposes). This existing DH requires the DH to be someone other than the 9 starters.

The new provision allows for any one of the 9 starters to also be the DH. For example. Abel is listed as the P/DH. Baker comes into pitch in the 6th for Abel, however is not the accomplished hitter that Abel is. Since Abel is also listed as the DH, Baker now pitches and Abel reverts to the DH. This keeps Abel in the game. Should Baker some to the plate later in the game, the DH will be terminated. (players may still re-enter if they have that available to them as a starter)

The head coach will declare which, if any, DH option is going to be at the plate conference prior to the game. Once his option is accepted along with the line-up card, he is bound by that decision for the remainder of the game.

The rule and case book plays, while already written will not be released until it is time for the rule books to go to publication, just like any prior rule change.
  #814  
Old 07-08-19, 05:59 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Ruling on:

Batted ball hits the bat a second time (bunt came up and hit the bat).

RULING:
1. Batter was still in the batters box and the bat was in his hands.
2. Batter was still in the BB and the bat was NOT in his hands.
3. Batter was out of the BB and the bat was not in his hands.
4. Batter was out of the BB and the bat was IN his hands.


In all these insatnces the batter did NOT intentionally have any actions to hit the bat the second time. I presume if he did it would change the ruling?
Based on no intent to contact the ball a second time....

1) Foul Ball
2) Depends on where the ball was in relation to the foul line when the ball hit the bat a second time. If fair, the contact is ignored and the ball is live. If foul, the ball is dead immediately.
3) Same as #2
4) If the ball was in fair territory and the ball came in contact with the bat, the batter-runner is out for interference. If the ball was in foul territory when the ball came in contact with the bat, it is a foul ball.

Based on the intentional act of the batter-runner contacting the ball a second time with the bat, the following ruling is the same for all four instances...

If the ball is fair, the batter-runner is declared out for interference If the ball is foul and has a chance to become fair, the batter-runner is declared out for interference. If the ball is foul and has no chance to become fair, you have a foul ball.

In all the instances where intent is involved, the ball is dead immediately and any runners return to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch.
  #815  
Old 07-08-19, 08:14 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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AllSports12,

Would one be correct to say that the DH rule change allows both use of the DH as it presently is used, or for utilization of the DH like in "college" with some of the position-playing pitchers that you see as starters on the mound?
  #816  
Old 07-08-19, 09:25 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
AllSports12,

Would one be correct to say that the DH rule change allows both use of the DH as it presently is used, or for utilization of the DH like in "college" with some of the position-playing pitchers that you see as starters on the mound?
That's exactly why the rule was changed. It gives managers more options with their better players. (many times they are the best pitcher as well)

All without the complexity of the college DH rule.
  #817  
Old 07-08-19, 09:44 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Based on no intent to contact the ball a second time....

1) Foul Ball
2) Depends on where the ball was in relation to the foul line when the ball hit the bat a second time. If fair, the contact is ignored and the ball is live. If foul, the ball is dead immediately.
3) Same as #2
4) If the ball was in fair territory and the ball came in contact with the bat, the batter-runner is out for interference. If the ball was in foul territory when the ball came in contact with the bat, it is a foul ball.

Based on the intentional act of the batter-runner contacting the ball a second time with the bat, the following ruling is the same for all four instances...

If the ball is fair, the batter-runner is declared out for interference If the ball is foul and has a chance to become fair, the batter-runner is declared out for interference. If the ball is foul and has no chance to become fair, you have a foul ball.

In all the instances where intent is involved, the ball is dead immediately and any runners return to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch.
Thank you.

Instance over the weekend as the HP umpire ruled the batter out saying he was out of the box (I don't believe he was).

Team A asked the HP if he would appeal and ask for help. He obliged and the base umpire said he as in the box and ruled in foul.

Team B didn't like that answer and talked to the umpires, in term they then changed it back to the original OUT call.


Now I don't know what they were discussing out there but I have never seen a double reversal before!

By your explanation it should have been a live ball as the HP umpire first stated it hit the bat and he wasn't in the batters box anymore.
  #818  
Old 07-09-19, 12:58 AM
CedarBuck92 CedarBuck92 is offline
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Piggybacking off the above questions. Does a batter being ruled out for interference result in an immediate dead ball or a delayed dead ball?

Example: Runner on first. Batter bunts, and drops the bat in fair territory where it contacts the ball pushing it further fair. Pitcher fields and air mails it to first. Runner from first scores. After ball returns to pitcher, HP rules batter interference and returns runner to 1st.

Should play have been stopped for the interference or is it correct to let it play out even though everything after the interference is erased?
  #819  
Old 07-09-19, 06:12 AM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The existing rule has 9 defensive starters, but 10 starters overall as the DH is a starter. (for re-entry purposes). This existing DH requires the DH to be someone other than the 9 starters.

The new provision allows for any one of the 9 starters to also be the DH. For example. Abel is listed as the P/DH. Baker comes into pitch in the 6th for Abel, however is not the accomplished hitter that Abel is. Since Abel is also listed as the DH, Baker now pitches and Abel reverts to the DH. This keeps Abel in the game. Should Baker some to the plate later in the game, the DH will be terminated. (players may still re-enter if they have that available to them as a starter)

The head coach will declare which, if any, DH option is going to be at the plate conference prior to the game. Once his option is accepted along with the line-up card, he is bound by that decision for the remainder of the game.

The rule and case book plays, while already written will not be released until it is time for the rule books to go to publication, just like any prior rule change.
So now a coach can start a game with 9 and no actual DH but label one of
his starts as also the DH. At any point the coach can pull said player out defensively and his replacement only plays defense while the original player is now the “normal” DH?
  #820  
Old 07-09-19, 09:12 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmog View Post
So now a coach can start a game with 9 and no actual DH but label one of
his starts as also the DH. At any point the coach can pull said player out defensively and his replacement only plays defense while the original player is now the “normal” DH?
Correct

The details will become more clear when the books are published and the official PowerPoints from the NFHS are released later on this year,
  #821  
Old 07-09-19, 09:20 AM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Correct

The details will become more clear when the books are published and the official PowerPoints from the NFHS are released later on this year,
I guess I don't hate it, but maybe being more of a traditionalist I like the "original" rule which is just like the MLB American League.
  #822  
Old 07-09-19, 09:28 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmog View Post
I guess I don't hate it, but maybe being more of a traditionalist I like the "original" rule which is just like the MLB American League.
Was the NFHS rule every exactly like the MLB rule where the DH had to hit for the pitcher?

If so, when did it change to the current version?

I admit I didn't know in MLB it HAD to be the pitcher until I looked up if Ohtani could hit and use the DH to a weaker offensive player when he pitched.
  #823  
Old 07-09-19, 10:16 AM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Was the NFHS rule every exactly like the MLB rule where the DH had to hit for the pitcher?

If so, when did it change to the current version?

I admit I didn't know in MLB it HAD to be the pitcher until I looked up if Ohtani could hit and use the DH to a weaker offensive player when he pitched.
My mistake, I always thought the American League rule was that the DH could be used for any position player just like in the old HS rule. I didn't know it was ONLY for pitcher until just now.

Back in HS we always used a DH for our catcher. Great defensive catcher, couldn't hit a lick. Our pitchers all came from the field except one and we didn't DH for any of them, just our catcher.
  #824  
Old 07-09-19, 03:06 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmog View Post
I guess I don't hate it, but maybe being more of a traditionalist I like the "original" rule which is just like the MLB American League.
The teams still have the option of using the DH as it has been used to this point in time.
  #825  
Old 07-09-19, 03:18 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CedarBuck92 View Post
Piggybacking off the above questions. Does a batter being ruled out for interference result in an immediate dead ball or a delayed dead ball?

Example: Runner on first. Batter bunts, and drops the bat in fair territory where it contacts the ball pushing it further fair. Pitcher fields and air mails it to first. Runner from first scores. After ball returns to pitcher, HP rules batter interference and returns runner to 1st.

Should play have been stopped for the interference or is it correct to let it play out even though everything after the interference is erased?
Based on your example, this is not interference as the batter-runner did not intentionally (drops the bat in fair territory) contact the ball with the bat.

Now, had this been the case, the ball is dead immediately on the interference and all runners return to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch. ( Rule 8-4-1d 1, 2)
  #826  
Old 07-10-19, 12:25 AM
CedarBuck92 CedarBuck92 is offline
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This was my thought too. I thought it was odd to let the whole thing play out just to call interference for something that happened within a few seconds of the play starting.
  #827  
Old 07-10-19, 07:40 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CedarBuck92 View Post
This was my thought too. I thought it was odd to let the whole thing play out just to call interference for something that happened within a few seconds of the play starting.
Mr. Allsports,

In a delayed dead ball instance does the team gaining the call have the opportunity to accept the penalty or the result of the play?

EXAMPLE: Rundown and there is intereference on the fielder. An instant dead ball results in the extra base, but with the delayed DB would the offense be able to possibly take the result of the play. For instance, rundown between 2-3, but the defense messes up so badly and throws it away and the runner ends up scoring and the batter makes it all the way to 2nd (or 3rd or home)

To caveat off of that.
Rundown between 2-3rd, defense interferes, delayed DB, runner ends up scoring on the play but the batter/runner then gets thrown out at second.

Does the offense have to accept either the run scoring and the out at second, or giving the first runner 3rd base due to the interference and the hitter/runner stays at first (presuming he was going to and got thrown out at second when a play was being made at the plate>
  #828  
Old 07-10-19, 04:23 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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thevoice,

In "delayed dead ball", there are clearly defined situations for when it becomes a dead ball, and for when there is no longer a dead ball.

In your specific example of a rundown, please note that the proper term is OBSTRUCTION for an infraction committed by the defense (offense interferes, defense obstructs). Obstruction is always a delayed dead ball (rule 5-1-2).

In the follow-up question, the delayed dead ball for obstruction is no longer in force once the offensive player that was obstructed achieves the base(s) that they otherwise would have achieved. The batter-runner is not involved in the obstruction scenario, so his out will remain on the books.
 

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