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  #91  
Old 08-16-18, 02:09 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just a fan View Post
If it weren't for the voucher program, these schools would be closed or in serious financial distress.
Private schools lose money on voucher kids. Hence SB 85 in 2017 that increases dollar amount and lets them charge the difference between scholarship dollars and total cost of education.
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  #92  
Old 08-16-18, 02:12 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by thecoachmoore View Post
And that’s the thing people aren’t understanding. They think public school districts own kids that live within an arbitrary border and have all rights to those kids. Well, at least the talented ones. I’m pretty sure they’re ok with the private schools bringing in the non-athletic kids.


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They further think that somehow private schools have something to do with public school districts. So if a kid comes to a private schools from a public school district that isn't where the private school is located, even if there isn't a private school in that kid's district, somehow that's a major crime.

At Alter, most kids actually come from the Centerville School District, but from Incarnation School. Centerville School District doesn't have a Catholic high school within its boundaries. But somehow they think Alter is recruiting in an unholy way. People who don't know better think that Alter "poaches" all the best players. Anyone who knows anything about Centerville knows that's not true.

The situation at Fairmont describes exactly what's really happening. Alter beat Fairmont 13 years running, until last year. Prior to that, it was very competitive between them. Now, however, Fairmont has new coaching, which is more effective at the high school level. Nothing wrong with the prior coaches, but they didn't have effective high school programs. Maybe they would have been better somewhere else, at college level, etc. Anyway, Fairmont is an example of the difference coaching makes. Then there's the culture of the school, the town, the parents, admin., etc.

IMO, the difference between the average public school and private school the same size is all those things. The actual players who are brought into the school make a difference, of course, but the total picture works together to make a sports team competitive. For example, the kids at Fairmont haven't really changed. They're still the kids from Kettering. The kids, especially in a high school team sport that relies heavily on attitude, coaching, off-season work and focus over talent, make much less difference than all the other factors.

Recruiting at high school is so much less prevalent and less important than most of the public school folks realize. Level 1 shows that they have to call recruiting kids from Catholic grade schools to Catholic high schools a problem in order to make a difference in where teams are placed for championship divisions.
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  #93  
Old 08-16-18, 02:12 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
In the Complaint, Roger Bacon claims to have had some 36 traditional feeder schools for more than 50 years, so kids from 35 Catholic feeder schools are counted as at least 2 kids. A school Roger Bacon's size is significantly impacted by that rule alone.
The fact that it hasn't been addressed and accounted for for over 50 years doesn't mean it shouldn't finally be.


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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
Public schools can have as many grade schools, middle schools or junior high schools as they want, and students from those schools who attend their district's high school are not multiplied.
You're comparing apples to oranges
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  #94  
Old 08-16-18, 02:13 PM
parkhaven parkhaven is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
His conclusion may be faulty, but not so much his logic. You are right that our country is built on the principle that all men are created equal. But it is also built on the reality that some people are more equal than others!
And, you will have to take that up with the communists who are currently trying to seize control of the country. Hobbling opponents to create equal outcomes is not the answer.
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  #95  
Old 08-16-18, 02:15 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
There are some private schools that this is a fair system. There are others that it's not quite as fair.

Remember, we have used previous year 9-11 enrollment for as long as I remember and that is completely unfair to most inner-city public school districts. The difference is those schools have much bigger issues to deal with than going to court to make things fairer for them. Many inner-city schools have played up a division for decades.

The reality is that school enrollment is an outdated standard for assigning divisions. The dropout rate and student movement to alternative schools make it highly unreliable.
Then fix the real problem. How about lowering the division of an inner city public school with a low graduation rate? How about excluding kids who are academically ineligible or handicapped? Instead, they allow home schooled kids to play for their public school but not a private school.
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  #96  
Old 08-16-18, 02:16 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
The fact that it hasn't been addressed and accounted for for over 50 years doesn't mean it shouldn't finally be.




You're comparing apples to oranges
Exactly. But Level 1 is a pretty unfair way to compare.
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  #97  
Old 08-16-18, 02:17 PM
the green fog the green fog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Great post IVCguy!

I think the future solution will have to be dividing divisions based on a ladder system. You keep winning, you keep moving up year-to-year. You keep losing, you keep moving down.

I know plenty disagree with me but I've never agreed with a team winning back-to-back titles in the lower divisions. If you win one year, you move up the next year. The divisional format was the original competitive balance proposal. If you are fortunate enough to win a championship, understand that the next year you will move up.
that is a great post . And I, the green fog, agree. Much like in soccer . If you win you 're division , you move up(promotion) . If you finish 0-10 ,then maybe you move down (relegation)
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  #98  
Old 08-16-18, 02:26 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
The fact that it hasn't been addressed and accounted for for over 50 years doesn't mean it shouldn't finally be.
As a general statement, of course that's true. But 50 years ago there weren't state championship playoffs. So the fact that there are multiple grade schools in the private system, which feed into larger private high schools, should not be used to bludgeon the private high schools. Reality should be part of the solution - not artificially skewed punishments.

How about dividing the state into private school districts, the way the government divided the state into public school districts? Then anyone coming outside the private school's district would be multiplied. Alter and Carroll would divide Kettering and Bellbrook. In addition, Carroll would include Beavercreek, Xenia, part of Dayton, Fairborn, etc. Alter would include Centerville, part of Oakwood, West Carrollton, Moraine and Miamisburg. Fenwick would include Warren County and the northern part of Butler County. CJ would include the balance of Oakwood and Dayton, Englewood, Trotwood, New Lebanon, Brookville, Vandalia, etc.
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  #99  
Old 08-16-18, 02:28 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by parkhaven View Post
And, you will have to take that up with the communists who are currently trying to seize control of the country. Hobbling opponents to create equal outcomes is not the answer.
This is a high school football forum. If you want to argue this political nonsense, do the rest of us a favor and take it to the debate forum.
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  #100  
Old 08-16-18, 02:37 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
How about dividing the state into private school districts, the way the government divided the state into public school districts?
The suggestion that the state also create districts for the privates when they've already separated the state into PUBLIC school districts (which the state has domain over) seems like evidence for the complete separation of public and private.
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  #101  
Old 08-16-18, 02:38 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
This is a high school football forum. If you want to argue this political nonsense, do the rest of us a favor and take it to the debate forum.
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  #102  
Old 08-16-18, 02:39 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Bacon did the right thing by quitting the GCL-Coed for football. They can't compete there. It's a D-III schedule for them. Let them play schools with similar enrollment.

Bacon did the wrong thing by filing this lawsuit. In the end, it won't accomplish anything.

Tier 1 CBP multiplier is completely arbitrary and wrong and unfair. It should be tossed.

Alter and Hartley and DeSales and SVSM all belong in D-III. They're all playing D-III+ regular season schedules. I have no problems with making teams who dominate the post-season year after year move up until they don't. Even if it's a load of communist social engineering or whatever private defenders normally say. What self-respecting team doesn't want a stronger challenge? Hoban and LaSalle need to be D-I.

D-I can't be fixed. Create a smaller D-0 Champions Division or whatever and make it opt-in and let those with real advantages and those who really cheat slug it out. Let Mentor have D-I.
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  #103  
Old 08-16-18, 02:44 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
The suggestion that the state also create districts for the privates when they've already separated the state into PUBLIC school districts (which the state has domain over) seems like evidence for the complete separation of public and private.
If the legislature gets involved and exercises it's domain, you will certainly not like the outcome.
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  #104  
Old 08-16-18, 02:45 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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I think this thread shows that there are vast differences between public and private schools. Most public schools get 95+% of their students from one feeder school. Most private schools get their kids from a large variety of schools. There are some private middle schools that are considered feeders for multiple private high schools.

When sports plays a role in a student's decision where they will attend school (public or private), then it changes the athletic landscape. That is why divisional alignment should not be based solely on enrollment.
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  #105  
Old 08-16-18, 02:50 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I think this thread shows that there are vast differences between public and private schools. Most public schools get 95+% of their students from one feeder school. Most private schools get their kids from a large variety of schools. There are some private middle schools that are considered feeders for multiple private high schools.

When sports plays a role in a student's decision where they will attend school (public or private), then it changes the athletic landscape. That is why divisional alignment should not be based solely on enrollment.
Uh,all this is a last ditch effort to regain the decades old competitive advantage held by the private schools in the state.They all recruit and create phony schollys to load their teams up.
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  #106  
Old 08-16-18, 02:51 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
How about dividing the state into private school districts
I generally like the idea. It's how the Columbus Diocese does things. In reality though, it's not entirely fair or perfect. Especially to Fisher who loses Fairfield County kids to Hartley and Newark Catholic who loses Licking County kids to both Hartley and DeSales. It only works in areas where all the schools are Diocesan. The Orders are notorious for not taking orders.
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  #107  
Old 08-16-18, 02:51 PM
parkhaven parkhaven is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
This is a high school football forum. If you want to argue this political nonsense, do the rest of us a favor and take it to the debate forum.
Apparently, you didn't get the memo. There is nothing that is untouched by politics anymore. The personal is political. Boris Pasternak addressed the problem in detail in his masterpiece, "Dr. Zhivago". You should read it some time and educate yourself.
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  #108  
Old 08-16-18, 02:54 PM
tom 48 tom 48 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh,all this is a last ditch effort to regain the decades old competitive advantage held by the private schools in the state.They all recruit and create phony schollys to load their teams up.
Yawn.
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  #109  
Old 08-16-18, 02:59 PM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2h View Post
How are they going to build a program when their best are continuously poached...or they have to compete against All Star teams.

Division placement should be based in some part on drawing area. If you are located in a large metro area you should be playing teams with a similar reach. To ignore that distinct advantage in roster building is naive.

It's like saying Mount Union can't offer scholarships but should still be expected to compete in the Big Ten.
There’s many reason why parents choose to send their children to certain schools and most of them go far beyond sports. Meanwhile, Hilliard Davidson beat Cleveland Glenville, Marion Local beat Ursuline, Coldwater beat Mooney twice, etc. There was also a day when Canton McKinley owned private schools in state title games, but the balance of power shifted for reasons that, again, go beyond sports. Certain communities breed & attract athletes for different reasons. Every formula isn’t the same, but competitive balance pampers schools that don’t have one. That’s my issue. I
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  #110  
Old 08-16-18, 03:00 PM
parkhaven parkhaven is offline
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Equal Outcomes.

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Originally Posted by tom 48 View Post
Yawn.
First and foremost, it must be recognized that the goal of competitive balance is to achieve equal outcomes and has nothing to do with insuring equal opportunity. That in and of itself is alien to our Constitution and way of life.
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  #111  
Old 08-16-18, 03:00 PM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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Originally Posted by Summa View Post
So St. Edward should welcome the chance to play college D3 football?
Oh, I did not know that these GCL coed schools have to play against 20-24 year olds....

I think the better argument would be for St. Ed's to play some of the bigger schools in Texas or other states that have huge schools.... and I am sure they would welcome that challenge.
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  #112  
Old 08-16-18, 03:00 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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To what degree are private schools associated with the Ohio Department of Education? There is no information available for these schools on the ODE's web site is there? Why is the OHSAA associated with them?
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  #113  
Old 08-16-18, 03:06 PM
parkhaven parkhaven is offline
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The politicization of the public school systems.

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Originally Posted by Worm02 View Post
There’s many reason why parents choose to send their children to certain schools and most of them go far beyond sports. Meanwhile, Hilliard Davidson beat Cleveland Glenville, Marion Local beat Ursuline, Coldwater beat Mooney twice, etc. There was also a day when Canton McKinley owned private schools in state title games, but the balance of power shifted for reasons that, again, go beyond sports. Certain communities breed & attract athletes for different reasons. Every formula isn’t the same, but competitive balance pampers schools that don’t have one. That’s my issue. I
I think that a primary reason for many parents sending their kids to private schools is that they do not want their kids indoctrinated with leftist propaganda and want to escape the moral depravity that has become so much a part of the public school curriculum. Sadly, some of the private schools are as bad as the public schools when it comes to leftist indoctrination. Buyer beware.
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  #114  
Old 08-16-18, 03:08 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Most private schools get their kids from a large variety of schools.
Because most private school systems don't have the money or numbers to put a feeder and high school in each public school district. As an example, there are about 800 eighth graders at Pickerington's two junior high schools. It would take about 25 Catholic eight grade feeder classes to put up those kinds of numbers. Pickerington Central Catholic high school would have about 40 kids tops and 24 of them would be girls. If the 16 boys were able to pull off one D-XIX football state championship in a hundred years there'd be an unholy uproar about unfair advantages.

Last edited by sapientia et veritas; 08-16-18 at 04:11 PM.
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  #115  
Old 08-16-18, 03:09 PM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
Just read the Complaint.

The Plaintiffs allege that the Level 1 penalty is arbitrary and capricious. That means that it has no connection to the stated purpose, which is to make state championship competitions more competitive.

Level 1, for purposes of calculating the number of students for placement in divisions, multiplies any student in a private school who came into the school from any elementary school, middle school or junior high school which is not the single private elementary school which must be designated as the high school's "feeder school", is arbitrary and capricious.

They further allege that Level 1 stifles competitiveness and renders the divisions less competitive, because it focuses on penalizing private schools and favoring public schools, rather than accounting for competitiveness.

Level 1 requires each private school to choose one private elementary school (most private schools don't have middle or junior high schools) as its "feeder schools". For example, at Alter, with which I'm most familiar, Incarnation School has been designated as Alter's "feeder school". So every student who comes into Alter from St. Charles School (which is on the same physical site as Alter), St. Albert the Great School or Bishop Leibold School (all traditionally Alter feeder schools) are considered outside Alter's system. Why did Alter choose Incarnation? Because about 40% of Alter's students come from Incarnation. The other 60% are divided among the other three feeder schools, and the Level 1 rule requires Alter to choose only one.

In Alter's case, that means that about 60% of Alter's football players count for at least two players, even though they come from traditional Catholic grade schools that have sent their graduates to Alter for 50 years. If Alter has 80 kids in its 9-12 grade football program, that means that the number of boys in the first three grades, which is usually, say, 230, now is counted as 278, for no reason other than Level 1 not recognizing more than one Catholic elementary feeder school. That moves Alter from DIV to DIII. That was the intended result. But if you count only football players that come from outside Alter's traditional four feeder elementary schools, it is highly likely that Alter would stay in DIII.

In the Complaint, Roger Bacon claims to have had some 36 traditional feeder schools for more than 50 years, so kids from 35 Catholic feeder schools are counted as at least 2 kids. A school Roger Bacon's size is significantly impacted by that rule alone.

Level 1 has nothing to do with kids from public schools going to Catholic schools to play sports.

Public schools can have as many grade schools, middle schools or junior high schools as they want, and students from those schools who attend their district's high school are not multiplied.

That's the only thing the Complaint claims. Getting rid of the Level 1 factor would seem to be more fair, but it wouldn't get to where the public schools want to be, which is to move all Catholic schools up at least one level, regardless of competitiveness.
So, Alter just wants to stay away from Trotwood.... I get it now.
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  #116  
Old 08-16-18, 03:10 PM
parkhaven parkhaven is offline
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Fairness.

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Originally Posted by sapientia et veritas View Post
I generally like the idea. It's how the Columbus Diocese does things. In reality though, it's not entirely fair or perfect. Especially to Fisher who loses Fairfield County kids to Hartley and Newark Catholic who loses Licking County kids to both Hartley and DeSales. It only works in areas where all the schools are Diocesan. The Orders are notorious for not taking orders.
Fairness is an emotion and not any sort of standard. Just saying.
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  #117  
Old 08-16-18, 03:12 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by parkhaven View Post
Sadly, some of the private schools are as bad as the public schools when it comes to leftist indoctrination.
Some of them Jesuit schools have darn good football teams though, so there's always that.
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  #118  
Old 08-16-18, 03:15 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
There is no information available for these schools on the ODE's web site is there?
There is. Obviously, it's categorized under the Quality School Choice topic:
http://education.ohio.gov/Topics/Quality-School-Choice
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  #119  
Old 08-16-18, 03:17 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapientia et veritas View Post
Because most private school systems don't have the money or numbers to put a feeder and high school in each public school district. As an example, there are about 800 eighth graders at each of Pickerington's two junior high schools. It would take about 25 Catholic eight grade feeder classes to put up those kinds of numbers. Pickerington Central Catholic high school would have about 40 kids tops and 24 of them would be girls. If the 16 boys were able to pull off one D-XIX football state championship in a hundred years there'd be an unholy uproar about unfair advantages.
While that may be true, it emphasizes the fact that private schools and public schools are very different. There are even significant differences between various public schools. Enrollment was a great way to assign divisions when it was originally started (almost 100 years ago) but things are different now.

It is time to re-think the variables to assigning districts. The CBP was one of the first steps but they made the mistake of using enrollment as the starting baseline and all these schools cried foul when they believed they were being punished by moving up to a different division than their enrollment indicated.
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  #120  
Old 08-16-18, 03:34 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Originally Posted by sapientia et veritas View Post
There is. Obviously, it's categorized under the Quality School Choice topic:
http://education.ohio.gov/Topics/Quality-School-Choice
Right where every other public/charter/vocational school is mentioned. What about in terms of Ohio School Report Cards? http://reportcard.education.ohio.gov/Pages/default.aspx
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