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  #1  
Old 10-10-17, 11:29 PM
steelboot steelboot is offline
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What is up with the reffing?

Just witnessed another God awful reffing job in a HS game. I am still in disbelief that a Center Ref can be that bad and still get games. He didn't know the HS rules, and quite honestly continuously tried to give one team every opportunity to get back in a game. These are the types of things that end team's seasons come tourney time. I'm starting to believe that far too many HS refs are only out there for the $$$. Repeatedly not enforcing HS rules or worse not understanding them. Sad when coaches/players/parents know the rules better than the guys hired to enforce them. SMH
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  #2  
Old 10-11-17, 04:17 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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I think all refs have to do some games as center ref.
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Old 10-11-17, 09:16 AM
phatneff phatneff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelboot View Post
Just witnessed another God awful reffing job in a HS game. I am still in disbelief that a Center Ref can be that bad and still get games. He didn't know the HS rules, and quite honestly continuously tried to give one team every opportunity to get back in a game. These are the types of things that end team's seasons come tourney time. I'm starting to believe that far too many HS refs are only out there for the $$$. Repeatedly not enforcing HS rules or worse not understanding them. Sad when coaches/players/parents know the rules better than the guys hired to enforce them. SMH
So what happened?
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Old 10-11-17, 09:25 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is online now
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Didn't LW win 4-3 on a PK ?
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  #5  
Old 10-11-17, 09:50 AM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
I think all refs have to do some games as center ref.
Incorrect / 'not necessarily'.

Some HS referees, who have years of USSF experience, might by permitted to take the Level 1 test and immediately enter the HS ranks as a Level 1. Many other referees complete the entrance level test, and begin as a Level 2 (which are not Playoff-eligible).......they wind up working on 2 Man/2 Whistle matches and as ARs on 3 man crews. There are some who choose to remain Level 2s, many others then decide to upgrade, which involves that test, along with being Assessed working several games as a Center, and likely a couple as an AR. This process can vary slightly between Local Associations (number of games Assessed for example).

Last edited by MJ_SoccerRef; 10-11-17 at 01:52 PM..
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  #6  
Old 10-11-17, 04:19 PM
steelboot steelboot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
Didn't LW win 4-3 on a PK ?
I'm not concerned that we won the game, I am concerned about the level of reffing on the HS soccer field, especially coming in to tourney time.

If a ref is bad and you win does that mean he gets a pass?

Last edited by steelboot; 10-11-17 at 04:57 PM..
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  #7  
Old 10-11-17, 04:24 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ_SoccerRef View Post
Incorrect / 'not necessarily'.

Some HS referees, who have years of USSF experience, might by permitted to take the Level 1 test and immediately enter the HS ranks as a Level 1. Many other referees complete the entrance level test, and begin as a Level 2 (which are not Playoff-eligible).......they wind up working on 2 Man/2 Whistle matches and as ARs on 3 man crews. There are some who choose to remain Level 2s, many others then decide to upgrade, which involves that test, along with being Assessed working several games as a Center, and likely a couple as an AR. This process can vary slightly between Local Associations (number of games Assessed for example).
Thanks for the clarification.
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  #8  
Old 10-11-17, 04:52 PM
steelboot steelboot is offline
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Originally Posted by phatneff View Post
So what happened?
First off he didn't understand the rule that any time the clock is stopped for an injured player the player must come off the field either by sub or until he is waved back on by the Center Ref. This happened 3-4 times during the game until midway thru the second half West's coach finally called him on it. This was after earlier in the half a West player was down, clock was stopped and West's coach even asked him if he could sub for the injured player. The player had gotten back up by this time and he restarted the game without awarding the sub.

Really didn't do a horrific job until after he awarded West a PK that put them up 4-2 with about 15 minutes remaining. IMO I think he felt like maybe he made the wrong call on the PK and he became hell bent on getting the goal back for East.
1. Gave them a free kick for handling on a clearly chested ball 20 yards from goal.
2. Gave them a corner (3rd goal came from this situation) when the AR 10 yards away correctly called a GK.
3. On East's third goal (not directly off the corner) the ball got cleared (just outside the 18) from the initial corner and an East player takes a shot that deflects off a West player that was a few yards away and right to an offside East player. AR raises his flag for offside but the play continued for a few seconds and the offside player played the ball back to another East player who scores. Center Ref stops the clock to go over and have a conversation with the AR which lasts all of maybe 10 seconds and points to the center awarding the goal. He tried to use the "excuse" that it hit off a West player and therefore the offside was waved off. Doesn't the defensive player have to reasonably be able to make a play on the ball to wave off the offside?
4. Then very late in the game (2 mins remaining) West player is dribbling into the East box on far left side with a defender on his back. West player takes a touch to go to goal in front of the East player and the East player hooks and turns him and they both fall to the ground. Everyone is thinking here comes a second PK call, he awards the FK to East.
There were a few other questionable calls in the last 15 minutes but those are the most egregious.

Can you please sign up to do all the West tourney games? Just don't have a lot of faith in the majority of the rest.
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  #9  
Old 10-11-17, 04:56 PM
steelboot steelboot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ_SoccerRef View Post
Incorrect / 'not necessarily'.

Some HS referees, who have years of USSF experience, might by permitted to take the Level 1 test and immediately enter the HS ranks as a Level 1. Many other referees complete the entrance level test, and begin as a Level 2 (which are not Playoff-eligible).......they wind up working on 2 Man/2 Whistle matches and as ARs on 3 man crews. There are some who choose to remain Level 2s, many others then decide to upgrade, which involves that test, along with being Assessed working several games as a Center, and likely a couple as an AR. This process can vary slightly between Local Associations (number of games Assessed for example).
Is having ever played a game of competitive soccer a factor for HS refs? I'm not being sarcastic just curious how many have played the game and how many have not. IMO having played the game at least for a few years helps them understand the game much better. Thoughts?
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  #10  
Old 10-11-17, 08:11 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelboot View Post
Can you please sign up to do all the West tourney games? Just don't have a lot of faith in the majority of the rest.
Lol. Didn't you say a month ago he basically cost you the game against Mason? I guess time heals all wounds.
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  #11  
Old 10-11-17, 09:24 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelboot View Post
Is having ever played a game of competitive soccer a factor for HS refs? I'm not being sarcastic just curious how many have played the game and how many have not. IMO having played the game at least for a few years helps them understand the game much better. Thoughts?
Depends upon the person, IMHO. Does being an official help some coaches be better coaches? My answer to that would be a resounding NO!. I’ve worked with some officials that didn’t play in high school, and they do very well........a some former players that need ‘a lot of development, to put it kindly. I thin officiating another HS post along with soccer might be of some benefit, as there are some factors that affect what is called, is a ‘no call’, etc. that translates across a variety of sports.
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  #12  
Old 10-11-17, 09:24 PM
phatneff phatneff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelboot View Post
3. ... Doesn't the defensive player have to reasonably be able to make a play on the ball to wave off the offside?
RUle 11.1.4....Player is offside and penalized if, at the time the ball touches or is played by a teammate, the player is involved in active play and interferes with play or with an opponent or seeks to gain an advantage by being in that position. A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent, who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save), is not considered to have gained an advantage.

That is the rule. I can't tell you what the CR saw in that instance or how he/she interpreted it.

Last edited by phatneff; 10-13-17 at 08:24 AM.. Reason: *
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  #13  
Old 10-12-17, 08:10 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelboot View Post
Is having ever played a game of competitive soccer a factor for HS refs? I'm not being sarcastic just curious how many have played the game and how many have not. IMO having played the game at least for a few years helps them understand the game much better. Thoughts?
a factor? in what way? making them better or worse? or do you mean a different style?
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  #14  
Old 10-12-17, 03:54 PM
soref soref is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelboot View Post
First off he didn't understand the rule that any time the clock is stopped for an injured player the player must come off the field either by sub or until he is waved back on by the Center Ref.
Actually in HS the ref can't waive the player back on during active play. If the ref stops the clock for an apparent injury then the player must leave the field. If the team plays short handed then the player is permitted back on at the next dead ball and does not need to be a substitution opportunity.
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  #15  
Old 10-12-17, 04:51 PM
Cincy_Futbol Cincy_Futbol is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Lol. Didn't you say a month ago he basically cost you the game against Mason? I guess time heals all wounds.
LOL I was thinking the same thing. Steelboot seems to complain about every ref whether he wins or loses. Human error is part of the game of soccer. Control what you can control and play the game.

Neither of these would have been causes of complaint if West didn't give away big leads in both games.
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  #16  
Old 10-12-17, 05:10 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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[QUOTE=phatneff;6867209]
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelboot View Post
3. ... Doesn't the defensive player have to reasonably be able to make a play on the ball to wave off the offside?

RUle 11.1.4....Player is offside and penalized if, at the time the ball touches or is played by a teammate, the player is involved in active play and interferes with play or with an opponent or seeks to gain an advantage by being in that position. A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent, who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save), is not considered to have gained an advantage.

That is the rule. I can't tell you what the CR saw in that instance or how he/she interpreted it.
I would also add that during several of our local association meetings, “deliberately plays the ball”, by our consensus, does not necessarily involve making contact with the ball. For example, a defender leaps to attempt to head the ball in an effort to keep the air-borne pass form reaching an attacker downfield. Likewise a ‘deliberate play’ must be evaluated as such, and not a deflection off a defender who made no attempt to make a play on the ball.

Also......"reasonably be able to make a play on the ball”......this wording sounds like attempting to understand a player’s ‘intent’, which is irrelevant except in handling (and under the NFHS Rules, ‘handling’ and ‘intent’ are BARELY related). We must evaluate what we actually SEE the player do / not do. IOW, what might be consider “reasonably able to do” will vary greatly from one player to the next, would it not, and also be VERY ‘subjective’.
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  #17  
Old 10-12-17, 11:10 PM
steelboot steelboot is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Lol. Didn't you say a month ago he basically cost you the game against Mason? I guess time heals all wounds.
Your reading comprehension is low. Go back and read the entire thread again and maybe a third time to let it sink in.
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  #18  
Old 10-12-17, 11:17 PM
steelboot steelboot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincy_Futbol View Post
LOL I was thinking the same thing. Steelboot seems to complain about every ref whether he wins or loses. Human error is part of the game of soccer. Control what you can control and play the game.

Neither of these would have been causes of complaint if West didn't give away big leads in both games.
Has nothing to do with wins or losses. Has to do with the lack of quality refs in the HS program. The good refs recognize that this is an issue. Yes human error will happen but not knowing the freakin' rules is unacceptable.

If you think that I just complain when West gives up leads you haven't been paying attention. When it happens to your team in the tourney and they are done I think your view will change. Just want the quality to improve.
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Old 10-13-17, 02:46 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by steelboot View Post
Two things: Ref screwed up and Mason was unsportsmanlike using that situation to their advantage...PERIOD!!!

Friend of mine talked to the refs after the game and the center ref told him that he thought Mason would play it back to their keeper on the restart. He could obviously see that Mason had no intention of that as they were setting up to take the kick (packing the West box, etc.). What he should have done as soon as Mason played the ball into the box is call a "phantom" foul on Mason and award West a free kick. I understand he was almost credited with the assist over the Mic by the PA from West.

Several questionable things occurred during that sequence. The Mason player that collided with West's Keeper and was injured was called offside by the AR but the Center Ref never even looked over to him. After the collision the Mason player stayed down (never tried to get back up or anything as he was honestly hurt) and the Ref should have stopped play right then with the West Keeper still holding the ball (Keeper actually looked back at the injured player and at the Ref as if waiting for the Ref to stop the play). Once Mason won possession of the punt they should have played the ball out of bounds (typical play when a player is injured) but with their own player laying in the box they continued to attack until Ref FINALLY blew his whistle. Once the trainers attended to the injury and Mason subbed the restart should have NEVER happened the way it did (read my two things above).

No way to sugarcoat this one, West got screwed. Whether it is an OHSAA rule or not, those of us that have played this game know that wasn't the correct way to restart. My guess is the OSHAA Individual that thought of this nonsense has never played a competitive game of soccer in his/her life!!

As for the rest of the game: It was a good game and actually reffed well IMO. But we all see how 79 minutes of a good job can be wiped out with one brain fart.

Kudos to Mason for playing an excellent 2nd half and fighting back to tie the game (which is how it should have ended). Shame on the West players for thinking they had the game won and taking their foot off the pedal. You've got to win 50/50 balls and not sure West won a single one in the second half. Additionally this is a contact sport and some of the West players seem to be afraid of contact (soft). Hopefully next week they will get back one of their best players (#10) who has missed the last 5+ games with an injury.

Let the rebuttals begin!!!
Yea......don't know where I got the idea that you said the ref cost you the game.
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  #20  
Old 10-13-17, 08:01 AM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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.....from Steelboot.....

"What he should have done as soon as Mason played the ball into the box is call a "phantom" foul on Mason and award West a free kick.”

What you are suggesting here is unethical & unprofessional. This sounds like a ‘makeup call’, which in reality exits only in the minds of ‘Armchair Officials’.

"After the collision the Mason player stayed down (never tried to get back up or anything as he was honestly hurt) and the Ref should have stopped play right then with the West Keeper still holding the ball (Keeper actually looked back at the injured player and at the Ref as if waiting for the Ref to stop the play). Once Mason won possession of the punt they should have played the ball out of bounds (typical play when a player is injured) but with their own player laying in the box they continued to attack until Ref FINALLY blew his whistle. Once the trainers attended to the injury and Mason subbed the restart should have NEVER happened the way it did (read my two things above)”

When / IF we stop play to check on an injured player is up to our discretion, as is whether we stop the clock for an injury (in which case the player must sub out of course). What you think the restart ‘should have been’ is irrelevant, unless you are the one carrying the whistle, wearing the green patch, etc. Without seeing the nature of said collision between this player & the Keeper, I cannot comment as to when / how this Center should have managed this injury any differently.

The only ‘issue’ I’d have with this Official(s) is the fact he / they ‘spoke' to anyone after the match, with regard to specific events within the game. For a variety of reasons, that should never occur.
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Old 10-13-17, 08:20 AM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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MJ: If I'm not mistaken, the only time stoppage occurs "immediately" for an injury is for head injuries. Correct?

Any other injury is discretion.
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Old 10-13-17, 08:31 AM
ammtd34 ammtd34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ_SoccerRef View Post
.....from Steelboot.....

The only ‘issue’ I’d have with this Official(s) is the fact he / they ‘spoke' to anyone after the match, with regard to specific events within the game. For a variety of reasons, that should never occur.
From your perspective, why not? I've had conversations with referees after matches I've coached and watched as a casual spectator. To be fair, I know a lot of referees. I'm not sure if I would have those same conversations with referees I wasn't familiar with.

Are you just avoiding what might be unnecessary complications?
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Old 10-13-17, 08:57 AM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Originally Posted by ammtd34 View Post
From your perspective, why not? I've had conversations with referees after matches I've coached and watched as a casual spectator. To be fair, I know a lot of referees. I'm not sure if I would have those same conversations with referees I wasn't familiar with.

Are you just avoiding what might be unnecessary complications?
I’m following the Directives from the OHSAA regarding our leaving games ASAP after their conclusion. Their (OHSAA) statement: "Officials to Leave Immediately at End of Match: All contest officials are to leave the field immediately at the conclusion of the match.”

If a Coach seeks clarification on an incident / call immediately after the final whistle, I’ll have that very brief discussion. But spectators? All I’ve ever said to them, in passing, is ‘Thank you’ & ‘Good night’.......including people I’ve known for some time ‘away from the game’. Same thing with before a game, when I see folks I know, even ‘friends’, in the crowd......not going to speak to them at all, as other spectators will find a way to mis-interpret that as ‘favoritism’, etc. Even talking to a HC beforehand for too long a period of time (length of time subject to the biased opinion of that specific spectator) can be mis-construed. Thus, speaking to any spectators, the media, etc. after a game, about specific incidents within that game, is a ‘Can of Worms’ I (and MANY of my peers) refuse to open.
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Old 10-13-17, 09:49 AM
ammtd34 ammtd34 is offline
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Originally Posted by MJ_SoccerRef View Post
I’m following the Directives from the OHSAA regarding our leaving games ASAP after their conclusion. Their (OHSAA) statement: "Officials to Leave Immediately at End of Match: All contest officials are to leave the field immediately at the conclusion of the match.”

If a Coach seeks clarification on an incident / call immediately after the final whistle, I’ll have that very brief discussion. But spectators? All I’ve ever said to them, in passing, is ‘Thank you’ & ‘Good night’.......including people I’ve known for some time ‘away from the game’. Same thing with before a game, when I see folks I know, even ‘friends’, in the crowd......not going to speak to them at all, as other spectators will find a way to mis-interpret that as ‘favoritism’, etc. Even talking to a HC beforehand for too long a period of time (length of time subject to the biased opinion of that specific spectator) can be mis-construed. Thus, speaking to any spectators, the media, etc. after a game, about specific incidents within that game, is a ‘Can of Worms’ I (and MANY of my peers) refuse to open.
Thanks, that's kind of what I figured, but I just wanted your perspective. I can see that it could be misconstrued but I didn't know if that was concerning to most referees or not.

I told a referee (that I knew) immediately after a top 10 college matchup two years ago that he missed a clear cut penalty late in the game. He said, "I know. I should have called it." I don't have a problem with that conversation but I can definitely see where people would.
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