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  #31  
Old 12-10-17, 06:19 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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As an FYI regarding the number of Class/Divisions in tournament history.

1908-1920 - No divisions - State meet conducted with no divisions, primarily made up of northern and central Ohio schools with limited participation. Some southern schools involved, but not many. Cincinnati-area was a non-participant until 1921 according to best info to date.

1921-1925 - Class A (large school) / Class B (small school)

1926-1928 - Class A (large school) / Class B (small school) / Class C (county schools winner) - Note, you won't find any reference to the Class C division on OHSAA's website results, but those meets did in fact happen with state champions in Class C being awarded. I have many of those results, and am compiling more as time goes by. Class C teams were conducted as county vs. county, with most teams being compiled by small schools who had won their county championships. Class A teams, as far as my research has taken me, never took positions in the Class C championships.

1929-1956 - Return to Class A / Class B format

1957-70 - Class A & Class B re-named to Class AA & Class A, respectively.

1971-1989 - Class AAA / Class AA / Class A 3-tier system comes into effect.

1990-present - Current Division I / Division II / Division III system comes into effect.

The size & number of schools required for participation in various classifications has varied through the years. I don't see the sports reg. 16.2 mentioned earlier as being a major stumbling block. That can always be changed. The biggest challenge will always come down to money, period.

CCRunner609's comment regarding OHSAA's inability to run deficits in the state tournament are spot-on.
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  #32  
Old 12-11-17, 07:58 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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I would be interested to see how many actual schools have kids that participate with an actual school paid coach. Not how many have 9 on the team, but at least one. How many had at least someone participate at the District. Are there more or less schools that in the 80's. I know a lot of school systems have merged or just closed. Just seems the sport is growing, but number of "teams" is not.
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  #33  
Old 12-11-17, 10:22 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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My AD and principal both voted yes.
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  #34  
Old 12-11-17, 10:48 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I would be interested to see how many actual schools have kids that participate with an actual school paid coach. Not how many have 9 on the team, but at least one. How many had at least someone participate at the District. Are there more or less schools that in the 80's. I know a lot of school systems have merged or just closed. Just seems the sport is growing, but number of "teams" is not.
100% agree. You watch some of the mega schools in Columbus in track or watch some of the larger teams in Southwest Ohio and their numbers are gaudy. Mason I heard has close to 400 on the track team. Centerville with over 300 and many Columbus D1 suburban schools with over 250. Numbers are very high in the large school districts where around 10% of the school participates in track and field.

Unfortunately, this does not equate to a better team. After a certain point you are just getting participation credit or a social experience.
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  #35  
Old 12-11-17, 11:09 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
100% agree. You watch some of the mega schools in Columbus in track or watch some of the larger teams in Southwest Ohio and their numbers are gaudy. Mason I heard has close to 400 on the track team. Centerville with over 300 and many Columbus D1 suburban schools with over 250. Numbers are very high in the large school districts where around 10% of the school participates in track and field.

Unfortunately, this does not equate to a better team. After a certain point you are just getting participation credit or a social experience.
super large numbers actually hurt some events and real talent from developing. You cant have 60 kids at HJ/PV/SP etc..... the real talent doesnt get the reps they need
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  #36  
Old 12-11-17, 12:18 PM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
super large numbers actually hurt some events and real talent from developing. You cant have 60 kids at HJ/PV/SP etc..... the real talent doesnt get the reps they need
Yea I would think a schools would want to have JV team and freshman team that practice at different times to give everyone time to develop their talents. But that would mean more coaches which means the sport cost more money.
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  #37  
Old 12-11-17, 12:35 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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While track and field is growing, it is mostly growing amongst the established teams, like the big d1 suburban schools. My own Coventry, which is a suburb of Akron, has seen the number of boys grow from 25 to 60 over the last 4 years. And that number will likely continue to grow. The tiny rural schools, however, are not seeing the same kind of growth.

I also agree with some of the other posters here who say that bigger is not necessarily better. The optimal number of kids on a track team, to me is 60-80. Once you get more than that, each additional athlete starts to bring diminished returns. And too many athletes prevent a team from effectively developing some of its talent.

I for one would like to see an increase in JV/Freshmen meets, because it would be nice to have opportunities to give the kids who are not good enough to run varsity invitational events, opportunities to experience the team aspect of track, the putting points together and trying to win the team victory at invitationals aspect to track. My own Coventry might start to be able to benefit from that if its track numbers continue to grow. Either that, or the OHSAA should allow teams to split up each week, and not have it count towards it's meet allotted total. Or, actually, Id like to see the ohsaa get rid of the regulation on the maximum allowed meets a team can run in a season. If they have to have a regulation on the matter, have there be a maximum amount of meets a individual can compete at instead of team. (to be eligible for postseason).

Last edited by CoventryTrackXCguy; 12-11-17 at 03:46 PM..
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  #38  
Old 12-11-17, 06:35 PM
madman madman is offline
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There is no practical way to verify the number of meets for each athlete in the state. An entry and participation are not the same thing. Even participation would be almost impossible to verify. Meet results are often not updated with who actually participated in relays. Many dual meets have only hand written results and some of them only record the top 3 individuals.
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  #39  
Old 12-11-17, 08:33 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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content://media/external/file/12234
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  #40  
Old 12-11-17, 08:39 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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D4 130 and below
D3 131 to 221
D2 222 to 379
D1 380 and above

Boys proposal
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  #41  
Old 12-11-17, 08:41 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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D4 133 and below
D3 134 to 208
D2 209 to 366
D1 367 and above

Girls
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  #42  
Old 12-11-17, 09:15 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Looking at results over the years for State Champions in both CC and Track and Field. I think the best way to add a 4th Division is to Divide it just like they do now by thirds and then divide the top third in half. So, 1/6, 1/6, 1/3, 1/3.
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  #43  
Old 12-11-17, 09:36 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Looking at results over the years for State Champions in both CC and Track and Field. I think the best way to add a 4th Division is to Divide it just like they do now by thirds and then divide the top third in half. So, 1/6, 1/6, 1/3, 1/3.
The numbers for cutoffs posted from the email that was sent doesnt even solve the problens in D1.

Schools with 380 schools are still competing with 1,000 in enrollment.
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  #44  
Old 12-12-17, 07:50 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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I owuld have presented a model they have already adopted for football (more likely to say yes) with about 65 schools in a D1 model. Add more teams to a pretty small pool of talent in D4.
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  #45  
Old 12-12-17, 12:21 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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FWIW, just did a quick count of numbers for boy's schools and there are 15 schools with enrollment of boys in the upper 3 grades at 750 plus boys.
There are 38 schools with less than 50 boys in the upper 3 grades. True, some of the small schools do not offer track, so we can say there are about twice as many (30) very small progams as there are "mega" schools (15).

To me, it is just as unproportional for a school with 30 boys to compete against a school with 130 as it would be for a school or 350 to go against a school with 1000. Strictly by the numbers, DIII is tougher as more schools are competing against schools with 4-times the enrollments whereas, DI is only about 3-times the enrollment for the "smaller" schools to go against AND there are more schools on the extreme low than the extreme high.

I don't think they should add to the numbers of those smaller schools in DIII as that will not be good for the sport in smaller communities and could "shut down" the smaller programs. I know that the good athletes could transfer to bigger schools, but we cant affort to lose any more programs. I think we should encourage those programs to get more paricipants at the District meet.

Just some things to think about.
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  #46  
Old 12-12-17, 09:39 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Yeah, What is now D3 should not change. Not much can be done for schools that are very small to make the size difference less of a factor. The good thing for those schools is that it only takes 2 or 3 really good athletes to score well in the championships. You can get 3 kids from 30 kids and compete.

Seems to me that something like this break down would work for Divisions.

D4 = 1-150
D3 = 151-300
D2 = 301-600
D1 = 601+

However, with OSAA adding the additional qualifiers to the state meet, there will not be a 4th Division added until the mythical number of teams to auto trigger it is hit.
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  #47  
Old 12-13-17, 06:32 AM
Napcat2000 Napcat2000 is offline
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when would this go into effect, if passed? 2018-19 school year?
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  #48  
Old 12-13-17, 08:21 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Probably at the earliest.

The state and regional meets could be ready but we are adding 16 districts that need officials, locations and timing systems
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  #49  
Old 12-13-17, 08:40 AM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Yeah, What is now D3 should not change. Not much can be done for schools that are very small to make the size difference less of a factor. The good thing for those schools is that it only takes 2 or 3 really good athletes to score well in the championships. You can get 3 kids from 30 kids and compete.

Seems to me that something like this break down would work for Divisions.

D4 = 1-150
D3 = 151-300
D2 = 301-600
D1 = 601+

However, with OSAA adding the additional qualifiers to the state meet, there will not be a 4th Division added until the mythical number of teams to auto trigger it is hit.
I like that breakdown. There is no way the mythical number of 750 will be hit unless OSHAA changes what they define as a team down to 3 or less at districts.
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  #50  
Old 12-14-17, 09:36 AM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Track Fan View Post
I like that breakdown. There is no way the mythical number of 750 will be hit unless OSHAA changes what they define as a team down to 3 or less at districts.
Then we should work to change that. (I especially like that idea when my royal blue and gold glasses are on-more small schools having teams, the more likely Coventry stays D-2 in a given season).
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  #51  
Old 12-14-17, 10:38 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napcat2000 View Post
when would this go into effect, if passed? 2018-19 school year?
No gonna happen. 100% failure rate of passing in how OHSAA worded the document. No AD would want to spend money when they have the choice.

Especially for track.
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  #52  
Old 12-15-17, 10:47 AM
Running Man 101 Running Man 101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Yeah, What is now D3 should not change. Not much can be done for schools that are very small to make the size difference less of a factor. The good thing for those schools is that it only takes 2 or 3 really good athletes to score well in the championships. You can get 3 kids from 30 kids and compete.

Seems to me that something like this break down would work for Divisions.

D4 = 1-150
D3 = 151-300
D2 = 301-600
D1 = 601+

However, with OSAA adding the additional qualifiers to the state meet, there will not be a 4th Division added until the mythical number of teams to auto trigger it is hit.
If you are referring to number of boys/girls per school in each division, generally agree as well. Maybe push D1 down to 550ish, but that is just getting picky
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