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  #61  
Old 03-22-17, 11:22 PM
EagleGuy EagleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Like I said we are currently experiencing a "slow motion coup" and are engaged in a "cold" civil war. I think the "tit for tat" argument is to point out a possible spark that could turn a "cold" civil war into a "hot" one. The thing about tit for tat behavior is it rapidly escalates until it's out of control.

But I agree that the fault here lies almost exclusively on the left and their suicidal embrace of the "resistance" against Trump. They are breaking convention and creating a potential for damaging escalation. If it all goes to hell, they own it.
Glad you could read my mind.



My last "shorthand" line mirrors AL's concern, which was much better articulated: Moreover, will it become acceptable practice, especially considering we are not all held to the same standards?

To the line above, I should have added (see HRC).

Originally Posted by 19AL6
What? Tit-for-tat? That is what you are worried about. I am worried about the fact we now seem to have branches in our govt. that are suppose to enforce the laws and now it seems that they are the one's breaking and not enforcing the laws.



Regarding Comey, I may be proven wrong (I hope not for our country's sake), but I still have confidence in him. Patience is a virtue.

BTW, I hope this post makes sense; I'm not always patient when it comes to conveying a thought.
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  #62  
Old 03-23-17, 02:48 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
There are a couple of critical elements of this story that weaken your analogy IMO:

* There are very specific rules regarding how the NSA handles situations where the "Mayor" (aka, an American citizen) walks into the room while they are spying on a foreign nation. It is against the law for the NSA to "unmask" the American citizen let along "arrest" him. In fact Trey Gowdy pointed out that whoever "unmasks" the identity of a US citizen caught in an NSA surveillance faces up to 10 years in prison.

* You could not arrest the Mayor using information you obtained from an NSA surveillance.

* It would have been very easy for the Obama administration to instruct the Justice Department to investigate Trump & his campaign under the guise of investigating suspected Russian interference in our election. Since the "investigation" involves a foreign country the Obama Justice Department could simply solicit the help of the NSA and it's powerful suite of surveillance tools to conduct the actual investigation. There is plausible deniability to go around if the Obama administration & Justice Department were ever found out: "we didn't do anything wrong we were just investigating those nasty Russians messing with our election".

* Now with the Justice Department, FBI & NSA investigating whether the Russians are helping Trump they are free to spy on Trump & his associates. Information is POWER and with the Obama administrations connection to the NSA surveillance of Trump right up to JANUARY 20, 2017, they could gather all sorts of political info to first aid in defeating Trump in the election and then after the election aid the "resistance" in undermining Trump's legitimacy.
I believe your final two points are the crux of this whole thing.

Inadmissible evidence can often be very useful, and can easily be shared face to face. Lots going on below the waterline.

Last edited by cabezadecaballo; 03-23-17 at 07:35 AM.
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  #63  
Old 03-23-17, 08:00 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Here's a nice summary of what's at stake by Roger Simon and why Obama needs to be under investigation:

https://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2017...ot-just-trump/

Sure he is "pro Trump" and has an ax to grind but he makes several very strong points that are hard to dispute. His main point:


The facts are what they are.

What appears at this writing is that Trump transition team members and possibly Trump himself had their identities revealed, were “unmasked” in the parlance, while foreign diplomats were being surveilled. The identities of American citizens were not sufficiently “minimized,” as they are required to be by law. This is a crime one would assume would put the perpetrators in prison. So far it hasn’t. More than that, such behavior is a grave threat to a free society, to all of us.

In effect, Trump was wiretapped — if not in the corny, old sense of the word, something very close. Technologically, he was wiretapped, as were several (actually many) others.

A fair amount of this happened not long before Barack Obama suddenly changed the rules regarding raw intelligence, for the first time ever allowing the NSA to share its data with 16 other intelligence agencies, thus making the dissemination of said data (i. e. leaking) many times more likely. That was done on January 17, 2017, just three scant days before Trump’s inauguration. Why did the then president finally decide to make that particular change at that extremely late date, rather than on one of the previous seven years and three hundred fifty-three days of his presidency? You don’t have to be Sherlock Holmes or Watson to smell a rat.



I wonder who will be the first Democrat with the courage to call for an investigation of the Obama administration?

As usual this link comes from Instapundit (https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/) a site that actually covers the news properly.
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  #64  
Old 03-23-17, 08:06 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleGuy View Post
Regarding Comey, I may be proven wrong (I hope not for our country's sake), but I still have confidence in him. Patience is a virtue.

BTW, I hope this post makes sense; I'm not always patient when it comes to conveying a thought.
I hope you're right about Comey. To support your notion is the fact that Comey hasn't been fired yet.

As an aside, prosecutors will often try to throw their targets off by making them believe the investigation is going in an entirely different direction then it actually is.
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  #65  
Old 03-23-17, 07:29 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Oh my, Obama may be extending his French Polynesian vacation:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...urce-says.html

If this is true and it sure sounds like it is, then Obama did spy on Trump and his transition team between his election and inauguration making Watergate look like a preschool party in comparison.

The implications of this are profound.
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  #66  
Old 03-23-17, 08:32 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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It'll be interesting to see if the alleged "smoking gun" ends up being real tomorrow.
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  #67  
Old 03-23-17, 10:15 PM
EagleGuy EagleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I hope you're right about Comey. To support your notion is the fact that Comey hasn't been fired yet.

As an aside, prosecutors will often try to throw their targets off by making them believe the investigation is going in an entirely different direction then it actually is.
Yes. Comey is holding his cards close to his vest - as well he should. The truth is what we want - good, bad or mugly.
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  #68  
Old 03-24-17, 02:09 AM
nupanther nupanther is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
But it was a gift. I just got married. It was a wedding present from my mother in law. It's in my mother in laws name.
Could watch that movie all day long!
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  #69  
Old 03-24-17, 09:02 AM
19AL63 19AL63 is offline
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I do not know which way this investigation is going to go, but I think it is going to be fun to watch which ever way it go down. D's and R's are you ready to rumble? Right now it looks like the R's just might have a little bit of an advantage.
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  #70  
Old 04-03-17, 12:15 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Looks like Susan Rice done gone and stepped in it.

Both sides are in danger of biting off more than they can chew with this sht, IMO.
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  #71  
Old 04-03-17, 01:21 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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I think Comey is a decent guy and probably has more integrity than most when it comes to his job. I've heard people on both sides vouch for his character and from the times I've seen him testify before House Oversight, it's hard not to believe he really does try to stay middle of the road.

I think he's just in the unfortunate position of being stuck between the two most unreasonable groups of people in the Schumer/Pelosi Democrats and the establishment/Trump Republicans.
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  #72  
Old 04-03-17, 01:25 PM
Qcity Qcity is offline
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Rice is the 'unmasker' .........she ought to be heading to jail, along with whoever told her to do it.
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  #73  
Old 04-03-17, 01:32 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by fish82 View Post
Looks like Susan Rice done gone and stepped in it.

Both sides are in danger of biting off more than they can chew with this sht, IMO.
I've got to believe that the tide is turning against the Dems on this one, though. Their tenuous position in the '18 elections is going to lose another finger in the grip over this evolving story. It's going to take a bombshell that they likely would have used already to turn it. The only cards remaining to be seen are likely to hurt the Dems, I think. They and their allies in the intelligence community certainly aren't holding out anything else against Trump at this point. They've shot their wad.

Unless a bargaining chip is being held by some individualist, I don't expect the Dem/Obama postion to improve here.

Trump is seen as more a "satellite" of the 'Pubs by most. After the Hildabeast faceplant, Obummer is positioned in the public consciousness as Dem #1, and he may be losing his Magic.
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  #74  
Old 04-03-17, 03:49 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
I think Comey is a decent guy and probably has more integrity than most when it comes to his job. I've heard people on both sides vouch for his character and from the times I've seen him testify before House Oversight, it's hard not to believe he really does try to stay middle of the road.

I think he's just in the unfortunate position of being stuck between the two most unreasonable groups of people in the Schumer/Pelosi Democrats and the establishment/Trump Republicans.
Reflecting back to the moment at which Comey first entered the public consciousness, I am beginning to see him as a tight-rope walker on an ever-lengthening cable.
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  #75  
Old 04-03-17, 04:45 PM
gneiss rocks gneiss rocks is offline
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Now we know...8 min of lies and propaganda while preaching "world-stage integrity" and calling Trump a liar about the very things she is lying about...swamp creatures gasping for air, they better learn to hold their breath for 4 years.
So many laughable quotes in here...my personal favorite, "Syrian democratic forces" lol
http://freebeacon.com/national-secur...ump-officials/

Last edited by gneiss rocks; 04-03-17 at 05:16 PM.
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  #76  
Old 04-03-17, 05:21 PM
Irwin20 Irwin20 is offline
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I'm surprised I didn't see anything about Rice on CNN @ 5:30 or on its website. You'd think it would at least be worth a mention. Hmm
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  #77  
Old 04-03-17, 07:12 PM
bigkat bigkat is offline
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Originally Posted by Irwin20 View Post
I'm surprised I didn't see anything about Rice on CNN @ 5:30 or on its website. You'd think it would at least be worth a mention. Hmm
and u won't.....
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  #78  
Old 04-03-17, 07:14 PM
bigkat bigkat is offline
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Originally Posted by Qcity View Post
Rice is the 'unmasker' .........she ought to be heading to jail, along with whoever told her to do it.
maybe we will see Rice appear on the Sunday morning shows.....
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  #79  
Old 04-03-17, 07:44 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by fish82 View Post
Looks like Susan Rice done gone and stepped in it.

Both sides are in danger of biting off more than they can chew with this sht, IMO.
I'm with Cabe on this one Fish. Since Trump made his bombshell accusation that he was spied on the facts have steadily moved in his favor. This latest story that Susan Rice "unmasked" the American citizens caught in the surveillance is a big deal.

Rices participation further establishes the scope & timing of the surveillance and ties it back to Obama. It seems the likely folks involved here are Rice & Lynch with at least a dotted line, wink & nod connection to president Obama. And the timing looks like they were doing this from at least July, 2016. So it covered the campaign AND the transition.

It's clear the trajectory of this is heading towards real problems for the democrats and members of the Obama administration. The odds seem to be squarely in Trumps favor. Even Nunes is looking better in all this.

Bottom line is that Trump is POTUS & he now has his people in charge of the key departments - Justice & National Security. It was only a matter of time before their command of the immense Federal governmental powers exposed all the dirty little secrets of what Obama tried to do. I suspect that phase 2, which will switch from "defense & discovery" to investigation & offense, is about to be unleashed.
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  #80  
Old 04-03-17, 07:46 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irwin20 View Post
I'm surprised I didn't see anything about Rice on CNN @ 5:30 or on its website. You'd think it would at least be worth a mention. Hmm
And there are reports that a NY Times "journalist" sat on the story for 48 hours before others broke it.
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  #81  
Old 04-03-17, 07:50 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
I think Comey is a decent guy and probably has more integrity than most when it comes to his job. I've heard people on both sides vouch for his character and from the times I've seen him testify before House Oversight, it's hard not to believe he really does try to stay middle of the road.

I think he's just in the unfortunate position of being stuck between the two most unreasonable groups of people in the Schumer/Pelosi Democrats and the establishment/Trump Republicans.
I might have agreed with you a year ago but the fact that folks on both sides of the political ESTABLISHMENT vouch for Comey carries far less weight with me today. The corruption may be a lot more bipartisan than partisans on either side ever imagined.

For me the appearance is that Comey is a man who strives to please those in power. This of course requires him to walk a tightrope as Cabe points out but does not inspire any confidence that the man represents a moral high ground in the swamp of DC. Quite the opposite IMO.
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  #82  
Old 04-04-17, 06:41 AM
Irwin20 Irwin20 is offline
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Found this @ CNN.com this morning. Only mention of Rice situation and of course says it not legit:

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2...sciutto-ac.cnn
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  #83  
Old 04-04-17, 07:42 AM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I might have agreed with you a year ago but the fact that folks on both sides of the political ESTABLISHMENT vouch for Comey carries far less weight with me today. The corruption may be a lot more bipartisan than partisans on either side ever imagined.

For me the appearance is that Comey is a man who strives to please those in power. This of course requires him to walk a tightrope as Cabe points out but does not inspire any confidence that the man represents a moral high ground in the swamp of DC. Quite the opposite IMO.
I'm mostly going off of my opinion of him from watching some of his testimony before House Oversight. Also the people who are vouching for him are not the typical dopes you think of when we say "establishment politicians". It's more of the lesser known, real human beings from the House of Representatives I'm referring to.

People like Gowdy, Chaffetz, Jordan from the R side and Lynch from the D side. Lynch is one of the D Representatives I find reasonable, he was one of the two that voted against Obamacare.
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  #84  
Old 04-04-17, 07:52 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irwin20 View Post
Found this @ CNN.com this morning. Only mention of Rice situation and of course says it not legit:

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2...sciutto-ac.cnn
Interesting in light of this report with both Fox News AND Bloomberg reporting some sleazy actions on the part of Rice:

http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/03/su...volving-trump/

Some key parts:

Former President Barack Obama’s national security adviser Susan Rice ordered U.S. spy agencies to produce “detailed spreadsheets” of legal phone calls involving Donald Trump and his aides when he was running for president, according to former U.S. Attorney Joseph diGenova.

“What was produced by the intelligence community at the request of Ms. Rice were detailed spreadsheets of intercepted phone calls with unmasked Trump associates in perfectly legal conversations with individuals,” diGenova told The Daily Caller News Foundation Investigative Group Monday
.

Is this what we want the NSA doing to fellow Americans let alone the opposition party:

Also on Monday, Fox News and Bloomberg News, citing multiple sources reported that Rice had requested the intelligence information that was produced in a highly organized operation. Fox said the unmasked names of Trump aides were given to officials at the National Security Council (NSC), the Department of Defense, James Clapper, President Obama’s Director of National Intelligence, and John Brennan, Obama’s CIA Director.

Joining Rice in the alleged White House operations was her deputy Ben Rhodes, according to Fox.


Note the name "Ben Rhodes" pops up. He's involved with a lot of sleazy Obama administration stuff.

Finally:

Michael Doran, former NSC senior director, told TheDCNF Monday that “somebody blew a hole in the wall between national security secrets and partisan politics.” This “was a stream of information that was supposed to be hermetically sealed from politics and the Obama administration found a way to blow a hole in that wall.”

Doran charged that potential serious crimes were undertaken because “this is a leaking of signal intelligence.”

“That’s a felony,” he told TheDCNF. “And you can get 10 years for that. It is a tremendous abuse of the system. We’re not supposed to be monitoring American citizens. Bigger than the crime, is the breach of public trust.”

Waurishuk said he was most dismayed that “this is now using national intelligence assets and capabilities to spy on the elected, yet-to-be-seated president.”

“We’re looking at a potential constitutional crisis from the standpoint that we used an extremely strong capability that’s supposed to be used to safeguard and protect the country,” he said. “And we used it for political purposes by a sitting President. That takes on a new precedent.”


I got this link at Instapundit (https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/) and as Stephen Green notes on that site the question is soon going to be: "What did Obama know about this and when did he know about it".

Bottom line is read all of the Daily Caller article and judge for yourself how credible it is.
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  #85  
Old 04-04-17, 08:11 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Wow
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  #86  
Old 04-04-17, 08:11 AM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Pretty obvious by now that the only foreigner meddling in the election was Obama.

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  #87  
Old 04-04-17, 08:11 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irwin20 View Post
Found this @ CNN.com this morning. Only mention of Rice situation and of course says it not legit:

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2...sciutto-ac.cnn
Here's some background on the CNN "reporter" leading this story:

http://www.redstate.com/jaycaruso/20...ce-revelation/

Sure, this is from "Red State" but my goodness if this reporter is a former associate of Rice & member of the Obama administration should he really be involved in the reporting? Don't they have "ombudsmen" at CNN that look at this kind of stuff?
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  #88  
Old 04-04-17, 08:27 AM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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I remember when they used to joke about "Chicago politics" as if dishonesty and criminality were a joke and the moronic democrats lapped it up like like a thirsty pit bull drinking out of a toilet bowl. You know, when people say "If somebody lost friends or stopped associating with someone because of their politics that's ridiculous" I just shake my head. If you enthusiastically follow a group of people that spew almost nothing but lies and half truths, play games with our nations security as if it's a political football, appear to be half mentally r-tarded when it comes to the most basic of economics while telling anyone within earshot they're racist/islamaphobic/homophobic/misogynist or any combination of those because you disagree and won't blindly follow... then no, we aren't going to be friends. Democrats are scumbags. SCUMBAGS. And if you voted for Obama and his clown posse criminal organization... you owe everyone here an apology for bringing that freaking plague upon us.
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  #89  
Old 04-22-17, 11:01 AM
gneiss rocks gneiss rocks is offline
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CNN has been going nuts about this. It is seriously stupid funny to watch them keep trying to revive this non story. Watched this interview this morning as Carter Page turns the tables on the propagandist...
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  #90  
Old 04-22-17, 11:02 PM
EagleGuy EagleGuy is offline
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Enjoyed. Thanks for posting.
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