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  #1  
Old 03-11-19, 12:09 PM
Gamewrestler Gamewrestler is offline
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State Duals vs State Finish

I remember a post about D3 people not happy with seeding. So they gave the number 3 to Versailles. I didn’t see them anywhere on the leader board? What did they finish this weekend??
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  #2  
Old 03-11-19, 12:57 PM
Boro Fan Boro Fan is offline
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They tied for 81st with 1 point.
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  #3  
Old 03-11-19, 01:21 PM
Gamewrestler Gamewrestler is offline
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No way
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  #4  
Old 03-11-19, 01:28 PM
roverdad roverdad is offline
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  #5  
Old 03-11-19, 03:19 PM
BHiatt BHiatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boro Fan View Post
They tied for 81st with 1 point.
They had a solid TEAM but not a top end individual. Keep in mind also that they won their first dual at the state meet (beat Crestwood) and then lost to Edison 45-23 (but it was 8-6 individual matches) so they were very competitive. AND that at the Individual state tournament, they had one qualifier out because of skin issue.
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  #6  
Old 03-11-19, 07:33 PM
chidy chidy is offline
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Originally Posted by Gamewrestler View Post
I remember a post about D3 people not happy with seeding. So they gave the number 3 to Versailles. I didnít see them anywhere on the leader board? What did they finish this weekend??
Wasnít that the entire point of the Team Duals because you need solid guys at 14 weights to be competitive not just a few stud individuals. Sounds like Versailles is the exact reason why the Team Duals are important. The Monroeville 4 were absolutely amazing at the Individual tournament but their team would have never qualified under the Team Dual format.
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  #7  
Old 03-11-19, 09:09 PM
pcbuck pcbuck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BHiatt View Post
They had a solid TEAM but not a top end individual. Keep in mind also that they won their first dual at the state meet (beat Crestwood) and then lost to Edison 45-23 (but it was 8-6 individual matches) so they were very competitive. AND that at the Individual state tournament, they had one qualifier out because of skin issue.
Rootstown had a solid TEAM with 5 top end individuals. The fact that they outscored Versailles 79-1 last week magnifies that.
Versailles returned 8 District Qualifiers/1 Placer/1 State Qualifiers/0 Placers
Rootstown returned 7 District Qualifiers/6 Placers/5 State Qualifiers/4 Placers

Convince me that Versailles should have been ranked ahead of Rootstown at the Dual Team Tournament
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  #8  
Old 03-11-19, 11:01 PM
BHiatt BHiatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcbuck View Post
Rootstown had a solid TEAM with 5 top end individuals. The fact that they outscored Versailles 79-1 last week magnifies that.
Versailles returned 8 District Qualifiers/1 Placer/1 State Qualifiers/0 Placers
Rootstown returned 7 District Qualifiers/6 Placers/5 State Qualifiers/4 Placers

Convince me that Versailles should have been ranked ahead of Rootstown at the Dual Team Tournament
Why try? Your mind is made up. I don't care about the seeding. I'm just saying Versailles acquitted themselves very well at the State Dual tournament.

I think you switch the teams around, they both still lose in the semis. So
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Old 03-12-19, 11:15 AM
fireflyer7051 fireflyer7051 is offline
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Versailles won against a Crestwood team that forfeited heavyweight. Rootstown dominated that same team.

I have Rootstown winning 9 matches vs Edison
113 126 132 138 152 160 182 195 hvy
Boro how do you think it would have played out?
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  #10  
Old 03-12-19, 11:52 AM
rr23724 rr23724 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcbuck View Post
Rootstown had a solid TEAM with 5 top end individuals. The fact that they outscored Versailles 79-1 last week magnifies that.
Versailles returned 8 District Qualifiers/1 Placer/1 State Qualifiers/0 Placers
Rootstown returned 7 District Qualifiers/6 Placers/5 State Qualifiers/4 Placers

Convince me that Versailles should have been ranked ahead of Rootstown at the Dual Team Tournament
Convince everyone else that you have a better system for seeding.
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  #11  
Old 03-12-19, 11:55 AM
jmog jmog is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fireflyer7051 View Post
Versailles won against a Crestwood team that forfeited heavyweight. Rootstown dominated that same team.

I have Rootstown winning 9 matches vs Edison
113 126 132 138 152 160 182 195 hvy
Boro how do you think it would have played out?
To be fair, Edison did better against Genoa than Rootstown did. Not by a ton, but did do better.
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  #12  
Old 03-12-19, 03:38 PM
fireflyer7051 fireflyer7051 is offline
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The point isnít Edison vs Genoa. The point has always been that if seeding criteria that was PUBLISHED were to have been followed the semi would have been Rootstown vs Edison for a trip to the finals. Let the second and third best teams decide on the mat. Based on a body of work and head to head performance along with this years and many years past Versailles held lower criteria than Rootstown, plain and simple.
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  #13  
Old 03-12-19, 05:29 PM
pcbuck pcbuck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BHiatt View Post
Why try? Your mind is made up. I don't care about the seeding. I'm just saying Versailles acquitted themselves very well at the State Dual tournament.

I think you switch the teams around, they both still lose in the semis. So
This is the response of someone who has no answer for why Versailles was seeded ahead of Rootstown.
I think the point people are making is that if you publish criteria you should stick to it. Otherwise just make it a random draw.
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  #14  
Old 03-12-19, 05:46 PM
wrestling125 wrestling125 is offline
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I have all the state finals matches if anyone wants them
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  #15  
Old 03-13-19, 07:43 AM
chidy chidy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestling125 View Post
I have all the state finals matches if anyone wants them
I missed a few weights that I would like to see 145, 195, 220, HVY
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  #16  
Old 03-13-19, 10:24 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcbuck View Post
This is the response of someone who has no answer for why Versailles was seeded ahead of Rootstown.
I think the point people are making is that if you publish criteria you should stick to it. Otherwise just make it a random draw.
Can you prove that it wasn't followed?
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  #17  
Old 03-13-19, 10:26 AM
wrestling125 wrestling125 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chidy View Post
I missed a few weights that I would like to see 145, 195, 220, HVY
Would be nice if you could toss me some cheddar cheese for the matches.
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  #18  
Old 03-13-19, 12:59 PM
pcbuck pcbuck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Can you prove that it wasn't followed?
Versailles returned 1 point from the state meet in 2018. Ironically thatís the same number of points they scored this year.
Rootstown returned 50 points from last year and scored 79 points this year.

Based on the seeding criteria published I canít see how Versailles was seeded higher. I donít have the results to prove it but the eye test says Rootstown all day over Versailles.

Make your argument as to why Versailles should have been seeded over the Rovers. Based on a few responses here it should be very easy yet no one has made any yet.
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  #19  
Old 03-13-19, 01:42 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcbuck View Post
Versailles returned 1 point from the state meet in 2018. Ironically thatís the same number of points they scored this year.
Rootstown returned 50 points from last year and scored 79 points this year.

Based on the seeding criteria published I canít see how Versailles was seeded higher. I donít have the results to prove it but the eye test says Rootstown all day over Versailles.

Make your argument as to why Versailles should have been seeded over the Rovers. Based on a few responses here it should be very easy yet no one has made any yet.
What's the criteria? You always mention it, but you've never listed it. Was it scoring from the individual tournament?
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  #20  
Old 03-13-19, 01:51 PM
chidy chidy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestling125 View Post
Would be nice if you could toss me some cheddar cheese for the matches.
I don't want to see them enough to pay for them. I had no dog in any of those weight classes. They were just the ones I missed. Thanks anyways though
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  #21  
Old 03-13-19, 02:51 PM
pcbuck pcbuck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
What's the criteria? You always mention it, but you've never listed it. Was it scoring from the individual tournament?
This is from the OHSAA website:
Seeding criteria includes: number of returning District Individual qualifiers and placers, number of returning State Individual Qualifiers and placers, the teamís dual record, and the teamís success in regular season tournaments.

The coaches are supposed to vote based on these criteria.
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  #22  
Old 03-13-19, 02:56 PM
pcbuck pcbuck is offline
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Btw, I have nothing against Versailles. (Just like I would have nothing against Malik Heinselman if he was seeded ahead of Drew Mattin in the NCAA tournament.)
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  #23  
Old 03-13-19, 03:23 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcbuck View Post
This is from the OHSAA website:
Seeding criteria includes: number of returning District Individual qualifiers and placers, number of returning State Individual Qualifiers and placers, the teamís dual record, and the teamís success in regular season tournaments.

The coaches are supposed to vote based on these criteria.
Ok. I'll ask it again. How do you know they didn't follow criteria? I don't see anything that says certain criteria is valued more than another. Without any further details, there is no way to say they did or didn't follow the criteria.
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  #24  
Old 03-13-19, 03:57 PM
fireflyer7051 fireflyer7051 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Ok. I'll ask it again. How do you know they didn't follow criteria? I don't see anything that says certain criteria is valued more than another. Without any further details, there is no way to say they did or didn't follow the criteria.
Hereís your criteria and how it wasnít followed:

Division 3 State Duals seeding
There needs to be more transparency in the seeding criteria used by the OHSAA committee for the state duals. The criteria published isnít nearly as black and white as that used for sectional tournaments. Their criteria directly from the OHSAA website rules says: ďSeeding criteria includes: number of returning District Individual qualifiers and placers, number of returning State Individual Qualifiers and placers, the teamís dual record, and the teamís success in regular season tournaments.Ē
When comparing line by line the criteria for Division 3 I come up with the following:
Districts-
The 3 & 4 seed both return 7 qualifiers
The 3 seed returns 1 placer, the 4 returns 6 placers
State-
The 3 seed returns 1 qualifier, the 4 returns all 5 plus an alternate
The 3 seed returns 0 placers, the 4 returns all 4
The 3 seed placed 47th with 11pts, the 4 was 6th with 50pts
Record-
Unsure of the 3ís record, the 4 is 13-1 for 2018/19

I could continue but the point is that there is no clear criteria used and no process in place to appeal or discuss possible seeding errors. This is going to cause arguably the second and third best teams from competing head to head for a shot at the state finals.
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  #25  
Old 03-13-19, 04:07 PM
fireflyer7051 fireflyer7051 is offline
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To add to this post:
The 2 seed and 4 seed both return 7 district qualifiers
The 2 seed only returns 3 district placers, the 4 seed returns 6 placers
The 2 seed only returns 3 state qualifiers, the 4 seed returns all 5 plus an alternate
The 2 seed only returns 3 state placers, the 4 seed returns all 4 state placers

There needs to be clear criteria and transparency in this process and a process to protest, object to or question a possible seeding error. The OHSAA published criteria that doesn’t follow them as stated, illustrated by the above two posts.

That’s a direct breakdown of the OHSAA criteria and exact information, easily accessible and verifiable, on how it wasn’t followed.
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  #26  
Old 03-13-19, 05:21 PM
chidy chidy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcbuck View Post
This is from the OHSAA website:
Seeding criteria includes: number of returning District Individual qualifiers and placers, number of returning State Individual Qualifiers and placers, the team’s dual record, and the team’s success in regular season tournaments.

The coaches are supposed to vote based on these criteria.
This is for the Regional level. Coaches don't vote on the state final seeds. There is a committee at the State level and they may use this criteria as a guideline but I have a feeling it's not the end all be all for their decisions on seeds. I'm fine with more transparency on the state seeding.
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  #27  
Old 03-13-19, 06:41 PM
pcbuck pcbuck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Ok. I'll ask it again. How do you know they didn't follow criteria? I don't see anything that says certain criteria is valued more than another. Without any further details, there is no way to say they did or didn't follow the criteria.
Iíll just make it simple, what criteria would you use that would put Versailles ahead of Rootstown? Can you think of 1?
Rootstownís argument has already been made in this thread and itís much more than 1 criteria.
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  #28  
Old 03-13-19, 06:44 PM
FirestoneFan FirestoneFan is offline
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I figured R-Town would be the #2 seed at the State duals (but what do I know). Genoa was definitely the best team.
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  #29  
Old 03-14-19, 07:35 AM
slicehead slicehead is offline
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Perhaps the committee saw the results of the Versailles/Genoa dual a couple of weeks prior to the State Duals in which Genoa beat Versailles 43-29??
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  #30  
Old 03-14-19, 08:14 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcbuck View Post
I’ll just make it simple, what criteria would you use that would put Versailles ahead of Rootstown? Can you think of 1?
Rootstown’s argument has already been made in this thread and it’s much more than 1 criteria.
I would look at the match ups more than anything else when judging a dual. Unfortunately, there isn't really a good way to judge the matchups other than looking at a base line of items and making a gut decision. If there was a better way, Josh Lowe would be as good as Brankman when predicting the state tournament. Only Brankman knows that formula and it will never be revealed.

Scoring at the state tournament and individual tournaments is much different than dual scoring. As someone mentioned earlier, Monroeville won a team title with 4 kids. Their dual team would have struggled to make it out of the opening round of the regional dual. Comparing the two isn't comparable.

It's been over a month since that event ended and complaining about the seeding of 2-3 closely matched teams is beyond silly at this point. It wasn't like Genoa wrestled Rootstown/Milan/Versailles in the opening round of the 3 round event. The football forum doesn't cry this much over the semi-final pairings for their tournament.
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