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  #61  
Old 03-12-19, 07:54 AM
rr23724 rr23724 is offline
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I have seen some situations where the man being returned tried something crazy and it caused an injury even when the top man did not return with excessive force. I have seen flying Granby's and other things that are just dangerous. I am pretty sure a few years back they outlawed guys doing back flips when his opponent has his leg up in a high single situation for safety. Why haven't they outlawed the Granby in the middle of a mat return or similar moves that make it impossible for the top man to stay under control and put him in a situation where he can be penalized while doing nothing wrong?
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  #62  
Old 03-12-19, 10:10 AM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
I was not there and did not see this happen so I have no interest in any way.
The first part we would disagree over is your idea that he "intentionally" put himself in danger. Things like this happen in a hurry.
That said, when a wrestler takes the opponent off the mat, he is always responsible for the safe return. What the man being lifted does is of no consequence. The rules do not give us the latitude to determine how or why someone changed position while in the air (and there really isn't time anyway).
Safe or unsafe is not part of the equation. The question is, was he returned with unnecessary force? If in the opinion of the official he was, it is a slam.
Additionally a slam can be called on either the offensive or defensive wrestler and it is to be called without hesitation.
In my opinion the bottom guy was not returned with excessive force. In the ref's opinion he was. It's all good. I have no dog in the fight I just did not like the call.

The reason it looked worse than it did was because as the lift occurred and the wrestler started to return the wrestler to the mat, on the way down and close to the return the bottom guy granby rolled and ended up on his head/neck/shoulder region.
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  #63  
Old 03-12-19, 10:20 AM
BigArlie8 BigArlie8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bad marriage View Post
going to have to give the ref's their due here. I saw three wrong calls, that were questioned, conferred between the two refs, and then corrected... they got it right each time... can't ask for more than that...
This is all I have ever asked for when questioning a call, but all you get 90% of the time is "you have been warned" or the I'm god syndrome sit down peasant. If a ref makes a mistake just tell me, hey coach I made a mistake I am sorry. I have umpired enough baseball to know that coaches would much rather have you admit the mistake instead of trying to be made to look stupid because an ump or ref or official cant admit that they made a mistake.
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  #64  
Old 03-12-19, 10:46 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
In my opinion the bottom guy was not returned with excessive force. In the ref's opinion he was. It's all good. I have no dog in the fight I just did not like the call.

The reason it looked worse than it did was because as the lift occurred and the wrestler started to return the wrestler to the mat, on the way down and close to the return the bottom guy granby rolled and ended up on his head/neck/shoulder region.
I agree, there are times when it looks like nothing happened and yet the kid can't get up. Other times there is a lot of noise but no damage is done. It is a moment is time and a call that is never popular if it is/was close.
The problem is that if we deviate from the way it is handled now, I am 100% sure that every time a slam is called, the coach of the "lifter" is going to be at the table saying the wrestler in the air did this or that to cause the problem. IOW, it should not be called.
Heck, I still have coaches plead to me that his man's knee was on the mat before the slam occurred. In all my years (and that is a long time) that has never been part of the rule book. Still gets quoted as gospel though.
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  #65  
Old 03-12-19, 11:08 AM
Cjlewis01 Cjlewis01 is offline
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I thought the officials at state did a great job this year. I thought they were better than what I saw at districts and exponentially better than what I saw at sectionals.

My guy had two calls not go his way in both of his 1 point losses. They weren't blown calls, more a 50/50 call that didn't go our way. I questioned one, was quickly dismissed but not given a warning. In the same match the other coach approached on a stall call, and the ref emphasized that this is close to questioning judgement. Didn't warn him if I recall correctly.

Another call was questioned in our blood round match. No warning.

So it looks like we were 2 for four on close calls. Which is about right.

Like I said... sectionals was a disaster from my point of view, and there were plenty of issues at districts... but that's a different story for a different thread.
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  #66  
Old 03-12-19, 11:46 AM
CBHS.net CBHS.net is offline
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Is this an Escape (Bottom guy had control)
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  #67  
Old 03-12-19, 11:50 AM
TBone 22 TBone 22 is offline
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I wanted to post this thread to see what was said. In most cases consistency from one ref to another is what everyone is asking for. Are the rules too non descriptive? Can the rules be interpreted differently? In watching this weekend it seemed like it. In one match the wrestler was running off the mat with not 1 stalling call. In the very next match on the same mat with a different ref, stalling was called immediately. The only problem with that was the wrestler continued to stall but was never called for it again? Why? Better consistency is all anyone can ask for. If 98% of the refs were on the same page it would make it a lot easier. Why were many refs not getting down on the mats to count? Why do they not look for defensive pins? Lot of questions. I guess we don't deserve answers unless we ref, according to refs on here. If your a ref, be the best at your profession. Rules need to be 95% black or white. No judgement. No interpretation of the rule. It's either this or that. This year the new rule said to continue to wrestle near the edge. That new rule was followed 25% of the time. It's tough to change something as crucial as this, when the refs have been calling out of bounds all of their career. It's that simple. why change it if it won't be called the way the rules call for. Again, too much interpretation for the referee.
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  #68  
Old 03-12-19, 11:51 AM
speedthatkills speedthatkills is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjlewis01 View Post
I thought the officials at state did a great job this year. I thought they were better than what I saw at districts and exponentially better than what I saw at sectionals.

My guy had two calls not go his way in both of his 1 point losses. They weren't blown calls, more a 50/50 call that didn't go our way. I questioned one, was quickly dismissed but not given a warning. In the same match the other coach approached on a stall call, and the ref emphasized that this is close to questioning judgement. Didn't warn him if I recall correctly.

Another call was questioned in our blood round match. No warning.

So it looks like we were 2 for four on close calls. Which is about right.

Like I said... sectionals was a disaster from my point of view, and there were plenty of issues at districts... but that's a different story for a different thread.
I agree. i think you see with all of the different opinions on this forum there is no way that officials are going to be able to walk away from a match and have everyone in the stands saying what a great job they did. Too personal of a sport, so depending on the decision someone is not going to be happy.

Personally I thought there was not enough stalling, but that is because my son was the pace pusher and a stalling call would have changed the outcome of the match. Regardless the tourney was an overall great experience and the officials were a big part of that. No Ram/Saints type of issues. Just loads of different opinions an what happened and should have happened.
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  #69  
Old 03-12-19, 12:07 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBHS.net View Post
Is this an Escape (Bottom guy had control)

If we were watching this match in one of our officials meetings, and this degree of separation existed for at least 2 seconds, I think I would be hard pressed not to believe there was a loss of control.
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  #70  
Old 03-12-19, 12:14 PM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBHS.net View Post
Is this an Escape (Bottom guy had control)
When I watched the match live, I felt as if they should have awarded 1. After rewatching the match, I do not think he was separated long enough to warrant the 1 as bottom guy is right on his leg the second he breaks free.
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  #71  
Old 03-12-19, 01:21 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBone 22 View Post
1- Are the rules too non descriptive?
2- Can the rules be interpreted differently?
3- The only problem with that was the wrestler continued to stall but was never called for it again? Why?
4- Why were many refs not getting down on the mats to count?
5- Why do they not look for defensive pins?
6- I guess we don't deserve answers unless we ref, according to refs on here. If your a ref, be the best at your profession.
7- This year the new rule said to continue to wrestle near the edge. That new rule was followed 25% of the time.
1) In a nutshell, yes. Take the definition for takedown. It can be found on multiple sites. It's very vague and open interpretation.
2) Read #1. The SRI's try and get everyone on the same page. Ultimately, it's very tough to get 700+ people to see vague language the same.
3) Who knows. How do we know what you describe is accurate? Maybe the wrestler appeared to be doing the same thing or less, but actually wasn't? Lots of little things go un-noticed from the stands.
4) Really? I didn't notice that at all during much of the post season. Not all situations really require a referee to be down on the mat to see 45.
5) Typically, if there is a chance for a defensive pin, they are also looking at back points for the scoring wrestler. Some things take priority, defensive pin isn't always the biggest priority, especially when it's not clearly in the vision of the official. Also, a majority of the time, defensive pins, are not pins. They wouldn't qualify as a pin if it were offensive.
6) The refs would give you guys answers and you'd still complain or tell them they were wrong. Why bother with this forum? It happens all the time with Behrens, JK, Refman, etc...
I've seen many officials explain things to coaches, kids, and even fans when they are off the mat and the person asking is kind. These guys do an extremely tough job. The majority really do put the time in, but this job is more of a hobby than profession. None of these guys, including refman, do this as a full time job.
7- This wasn't a new rule. It's always been a thing to wrestle at the edge. The rule book just added language to justify a stall call at the edge. It was extremely aggressive to start the year. It faded a bit, possibly too much by the end of the year. It's still a process. Many guys have called it a specific way for a long time. Jim Behrens can correct me, but I don't think they were ever officially told to call it like college OB. Just to be more aggressive with the call.
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  #72  
Old 03-12-19, 01:34 PM
snakenbake70 snakenbake70 is offline
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Keep Jim Vreeland up at the head table! He just so happened to be at our mat and went out of his way to make my wrestler remove his knee pad.....meanwhile we counted 4 other wrestlers wrestling with the same knee pad at that time. Totally ruined my wrestler's focus!
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  #73  
Old 03-12-19, 01:43 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Just checked in and I see that I am mentioned.
I can address what I know from the meetings I attended.
First, I think the reason you saw fewer edge stalling calls as the season went on was because the wrestlers were adapting and staying more toward the center. My personal experience was that they got used to the new rule very quickly and it made life better for everyone. The clock keeps going and the fans see wrestling instead of a dance to get near the edge.

Regarding the rule itself, stalling is covered by Rule 5-24 and this was added under stalling in the neutral position.
5-24-3e) backs off the mat, out of bounds or
f) pushes or pulls their opponent out of bounds.

The hardest part is in determining who is doing what. There are signs we look for and they aid in making the call.

Keep in mind that fleeing is no longer what it once was so it is called differently than in the past.

This was emphasized in every early season meeting I attended. They wanted the call made. Like everything new, there is a period of adjustment but overall I think it worked out pretty well. Can we make mistakes or see it differently than a coach or fan? Certainly.

I never had any of the SRI's tell us to call it like the NCAA does. In fact, I never heard that mentioned in any way.
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  #74  
Old 03-12-19, 02:17 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedthatkills View Post
I agree. i think you see with all of the different opinions on this forum there is no way that officials are going to be able to walk away from a match and have everyone in the stands saying what a great job they did. Too personal of a sport, so depending on the decision someone is not going to be happy.

Personally I thought there was not enough stalling, but that is because my son was the pace pusher and a stalling call would have changed the outcome of the match. Regardless the tourney was an overall great experience and the officials were a big part of that. No Ram/Saints type of issues. Just loads of different opinions an what happened and should have happened.
Was thinking just about all of this and I agree. Very well said.

WAY TOO MANY OPINIONS. I'm reading I don't think it was a slam at the 145 final because... Too many opinions. It was a slam. Period.
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  #75  
Old 03-12-19, 03:08 PM
lwikel lwikel is offline
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I suppose I will add my two cents to the conversation.

Stalling is a problem, so we have been told, and the NFHS added some new language and asked the officials to enforce the new rule regarding stalling near the edge. It took about a round to get into the flow of that new rule, but I have usually called more stalling than most. Nothing else in the book regarding stalling changed. All those other instances are still stalling and needed to be called. As we adapted to the rule, the instances became fewer for me. I was beginning to penalize the action being taken to the edge more, and the kids stayed closer to the center. As officials, we have to develop a philosophy of what is stalling and call it according to that philosophy every time. Hopefully, that philosophy is very close to what the norm is for the state ref in Ohio.

There was another change to the wrestling on the edge, as was alluded to earlier. Any two points inbounds became the rule rather than two points of either wrestler. This took more for me to adapt but the rule made it clear to administer, and I don't think most officials adapted the same philosophy. The ref needs to not look at what is out of bounds, but what remained inbounds. Count what's in and let action continue so long as we have two in. It changed everything for me.

Like I said, not everyone looked at that rule the same and you could see in every meet, refs blowing their whistle when action was still inbounds. I know this was an inconsistent call amongst the crew statewide.

The fact is, some refs are better than others. Its that way in every walk of life and in every profession. Not everyone sees enough mat time to improve, not enough high-level action to see every situation that he will encounter as the season progresses into post-season. Leg passes and shin whizzers are old school now but there are refs that have no idea of when to award control or how to control his own hands to not award too quickly.

There are a few things that I believe we can do better. First, I think we all, every single one of us, can be better at the table. However, every single coach can be better there too. This should involve a mutually respectful interaction where the coach asks a question, he receives the officials response and either there is a change or we go back to wrestling. Short, direct and we wrestle. The issue is, the coach is rarely calm and has his wrestlers interests in mind. The officials have to make a call on criteria and judgment. The last part of that is the issue. Not every ref has the same experiences and the same judgment as the next guy.

I have officiated a couple of state tournaments and I have been fortunate to call some high level action every year. If I show up at the Hilljack JV classic, and the teams competing are prepared for young, less experienced JV refs, I will be the outlier and likely I will be at the table all day long and I will probably be making calls that every coach will think is wrong. So this isn't just an experience thing for the officials. What sort of officiating has each coach seen all year? If the coach sees the quick two-count for near fall and a lack of stalling warnings, he might think these sort of calls are "bad" when they are called properly.

There is really no way to make officiating consistent so long as there is judgment involved. We all have our jobs and family obligations. This is truly an advocation for all of us. As we improve, we have opportunities to officiate better competition and those experiences make us better. The top level guys are so much better than the average ref that it is glaring. In a crew of 30 at the state tournament, there are vast differences in ability and experience. The 10 crews of three are all from different districts and therefore you will see differences in style, interpretation and mechanics. The mechanics can be corrected easily but the other two are what makes the differences.

As has been stated here several times, two things that seem to be universally regurgitated by the officials are: "If you can do better, come join us"; and "Sit down Coach or you will get a warning." I hate the second one so much. The coach has a right to ask a question at the table and I won't warn a coach so long as its respectful. That would always be my advice for a coach. Just ask a question. "What was that call sir?" "What did you see?" Ask the ref to explain the call or explain what it is he saw that resulted in the score or no-call. You will know quickly what sort of ref you have on your mat and then, know how to coach based on that.

The other statement is what got me to start officiating 20 years ago. I was coaching and I was that idiot young coach, not even in the chair. I was all over Gary Berkowicz, who is excellent, and I was so wrong in every way. After a match, he calmly walked over and asked if I had an interest in getting a license and maybe I could benefit from that as it could make me a better coach since I surely was passionate about the sport. I am the one guy that took him up on the offer...and he regrets it to this day!

Sorry I rambled on and I hope this makes sense.
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  #76  
Old 03-12-19, 04:35 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Very well said and honest. I concur on most of this.

In 17 years I have only dissed out 4 warnings to coaches, took a team point away from a coach at a Jr High State and ejected a coach at a youth tourney this year for the first time. Coaches very rarely get under my skin.

I think partly is that whenever I coach a sport I am probably 5 times more intense than any coach that I ever deal with. Coaches, fans, athletes, and even refs to a degree are bias. I do the best that I can to never be bias. Doesn't matter if the coach is obnoxious, not going to penalize a kid for that.

But fans for the most part have no clue and are bias. I used to be one of them. I think that me not penalizing coaches may hurt other officials. I pride myself in being able to handle a situation well enough that I don't have to penalize them. As long as the coach isn't disrespectful I'm fine with being questioned. No issues with it.

However, most coaches know me and do not push it. I've seen where a coach can tell that a ref is newer, maybe not as confident, whatever and push it. Everyone's hot button is different.
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  #77  
Old 03-12-19, 04:46 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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There are a lot of factors into situations when someone thinks a bad call happens. People do not understand. If you have a little patience I'll go over a call that the world got upset over in the Rams/Saints game:

I used to ref college football too. The controversial no call on pass interference would have been my call. The Field Judge and Side Judge start 20 yards down field past the line of scrimmage on the sideline. However, once the offense gets inside the 20 yard line up to the 6 yard line the FJ starts on the goal line.

The FJ's initial key is the widest receiver on their side of the field. Once that receiver leaves his zone they pick up the player coming into their zone. On this specific play it is now the Running Back. He gets hit at the 6 yard line. The FJ's view and angle are not the greatest as he is too close and gets straight lined view between the receiver, DB, and the ball.

Once the ball is in the air all of the official's eyes need to go to the ball. The Line Judge is on the line of scrimmage an reaches for his flag. But keeps it in his pocket because his eyes probably come late and he can't throw a flag unless he sees the whole play. He has to be certain. The Back Judge (he's in the middle of the field) can help but he is watching to make sure the Tight End isn't being held or creating Offensive Pass Interference.

So the Field Judge misses the call. The LJ and BJ know that the FJ is right there close and they either didn't see the whole play or didn't have the stones to make that huge call at that point of game.

PLUS, they get one look at it and it is a bang bang play. He gets hit less than a second before the ball arrives. A lot going on and it goes down as the worse missed call in NFL history. Why?

Because there are a million cameras, million fans, million social media posts, and lack of understanding. These calls get missed unfortunately sometimes. Look how often a call in this situation of this magnitude doesn't get missed. Unfortunately, it happens and in a weird way makes all of this become legend.
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  #78  
Old 03-12-19, 06:38 PM
jfide650 jfide650 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBHS.net View Post
Is this an Escape (Bottom guy had control)
The Wrestling Case Book And Manual, you know the OTHER book OHSAA sends out every year, definition of an escape can be found on page 25. Rule 5.10 Situation B "When the bottom wrestler is able to stand, turn break the locked hands and separate them to the point that THEY BOTH CROSS THE MIDLINE OF THE BACK, control is lost and an escape shall be awarded.

Hand on the back doesn't appear to have crossed the midline of the defensive wrestlers back, so per 5.10(B) NO escape.
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  #79  
Old 03-13-19, 08:36 AM
lwikel lwikel is offline
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We all know every official knows this and uses that exact explanation when questioned at the table.

Truth is, this is such a feel call. I would look closer to whether the bottom wrestler gained a neutral position and whether awarding that escape and allowing the top wrestler to shoot back underneath so quickly would be just allowing the top wrestler to score again.

The bottom man must be able to defend the neutral position. Same could be said for the escape plus takedown for the bottom man, in lieu of just awarding a reversal. Can he defend the neutral position?

That's why we hold the escape and show control in scramble positions such as this. If the situation stops for OOB or end of period, we can call a loss of control and award the point.
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  #80  
Old 03-13-19, 08:43 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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In combination with lwikel's statement, this photo is a moment frozen in time by the camera. The motion is never this defined. We have to take into account what got us to this moment as well as what might happen a moment later.
It all matters. There is no need to rush the awarding of points in a case like this.

In a similar vein, you could show me a photo of a wrestler flat on his back and ask, why is this not a pin? The answer is that this is but a moment of the required two seconds needed for a fall. I have no idea from the picture whether all the criteria for a fall were met.
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  #81  
Old 03-13-19, 09:11 AM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
In combination with lwikel's statement, this photo is a moment frozen in time by the camera. The motion is never this defined. We have to take into account what got us to this moment as well as what might happen a moment later.
It all matters. There is no need to rush the awarding of points in a case like this.

In a similar vein, you could show me a photo of a wrestler flat on his back and ask, why is this not a pin? The answer is that this is but a moment of the required two seconds needed for a fall. I have no idea from the picture whether all the criteria for a fall were met.
This
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  #82  
Old 03-13-19, 10:38 AM
pete pete is offline
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edge of mat

My objection to wrestling the center is if I am given a 30' circle, let me wrestle the 30'. Is this equivalent to the hash mark in football. But recievers and runners aren't told to run between the hashes if they are downfield! You don't have officials running down the field telling the receivers - hashmark!
If I am playing the edge to avoid a score hit me for stalling. I like the new stall calls. Would have probably called the push out more if I were wearing stripes again.
The lightweight mats and 6' sections set up the 30' circle, but if all I need is 5-feet beyond the line, the next mat I buy for the school will be 32' diameter!
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  #83  
Old 03-13-19, 10:50 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete View Post
My objection to wrestling the center is if I am given a 30' circle, let me wrestle the 30'. Is this equivalent to the hash mark in football. But recievers and runners aren't told to run between the hashes if they are downfield! You don't have officials running down the field telling the receivers - hashmark!
If I am playing the edge to avoid a score hit me for stalling. I like the new stall calls. Would have probably called the push out more if I were wearing stripes again.
The lightweight mats and 6' sections set up the 30' circle, but if all I need is 5-feet beyond the line, the next mat I buy for the school will be 32' diameter!
No one has to wrestle in the center but the idea is to keep them on the wrestling surface. No one is stopping you from using the whole circle but that means to use it, not to play it.
If you think about it, you now have a much larger area to to work with for a couple of reasons.
1) The area where a NF or pin can occur now extends outside the line and
2) Only two points of either or both wrestlers has to be inbounds for wrestling to continue.
As long as the man with his butt toward the line is attempting to stay (or work back) inbounds, nothing should be called.
However, think back over the last few years. There were lots of guys who wanted to work the edge and if something went wrong, they used the line as a safety net. I saw a lot less of that this year.
If you go OOB's to avoid a score, you are fleeing and not stalling.
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  #84  
Old 03-13-19, 10:51 AM
BigArlie8 BigArlie8 is offline
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If all these guys would just wrestle FS/GR more there wouldn't be an issue with edge wrestling. We always teach kids they have to circle or you lose points.
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  #85  
Old 03-13-19, 11:29 AM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
2) Only two points of either or both wrestlers has to be inbounds for wrestling to continue.
I think this needs to be consistent around the state. I feel like this was not implemented all that well this year. It's new so I understand allowing it to progress, but as someone mentioned earlier, focus on what's inbounds and not whats out of bounds. I think the rules were a step in the right direction and I really think it has helped to continue action. Just think it needs to be more consistent.
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Old 03-13-19, 11:43 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
I think this needs to be consistent around the state. I feel like this was not implemented all that well this year. It's new so I understand allowing it to progress, but as someone mentioned earlier, focus on what's inbounds and not whats out of bounds. I think the rules were a step in the right direction and I really think it has helped to continue action. Just think it needs to be more consistent.
Not having seen it all around the state, I certainly would not disagree.
I will say that, especially with the wrestlers on their feet, this change was a lot harder to adjust to than I expected. I was rather surprised that it was not as easy as I would have thought.
That said, I hope it gets better as we go forward.
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Old 03-13-19, 02:46 PM
lwikel lwikel is offline
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As I stated above, it is so much easier to just count what's inbounds than everything out. Game changer for me.

With regard to wrestling in the center vs using all 30', I understand what your argument. However, the rule book states each wrestler shall make an honest attempt to wrestle aggressively within the ten foot circle regardless of time, score or position. The idea is to attempt to wrestle in the middle and only deviate from it if wrestling action takes you there. It is my obligation to administer the rules and part of that is to remind the wrestlers to work in the center. Our commands we use are "center, action and contact"

I have seen enough wrestling this year where the action is taken to the edge by one wrestler backing without penalty, circles in and pushes out and the wrestler getting pushed gets warned. This is wrong and the solution is to recognize how we got there. Without considering the rulebook's statement to wrestle aggressively within the ten foot circle, this sort of action will continue until it is penalized. Usually I am the one who will give that warning in the next match and I look like the bad guy. Warn the guy as he backs away from the center.

Think about the rule. I have never seen a guy who is backing toward the edge who is also wrestling aggressively. On the other side of the coin, I will have a difficult time warning a wrestler who stays in the center and is engaging action in the middle. Wrestling not blocking.

That definition of stalling is our guide and I will repeat it at the table. If asked what I saw, I will describe the action and how I did not feel that the wrestler was making an honest attempt at being aggressive. It usually is accurate. Remember aggression. Backing up is never an honest attempt at being aggressive.

Its not a difficult concept.
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Old 03-13-19, 05:09 PM
Gamewrestler Gamewrestler is offline
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Here’s the problems I see

Number 1 if A gets screwed if he is winning 5-1 in the third. Wrestler A worked the first two periods while wrestler B did very little. Now wrestle A gets now stop stealing calls.

Number 2 the second official knows official 1 made wrong call. Any half of them will fix it.

Number 3 the buddy system brings bad officials to states.
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Old 03-14-19, 09:11 AM
lwikel lwikel is offline
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I will try to answer this, if I am understanding your confusing post.

Wrestler A is leading 5-1 into the third period. If I understand your complaint, the refs have a tendency to warn A for stalling. I listened to some radio for the state tournament the first two days when I was at work. One of the announcers said the refs have a tendency to warn wrestlers for leading. I thought that was funny but is there some truth to it, and if that is the impression of Ohio officiating, that isn't good.

Now why would A get warned. I would warn him if he stops wrestling and starts evading chances to score. The rulebook says "...regardless of time, position or score." When starts to protect and not working to score, he needs to be warned. For B to have chances to score, A needs to engage action. Now, I am not saying he needs to be reckless, only that he needs to engage. Try to advance his position. Work up on bottom, break the man down on top.

Second item. If the assistant ref know the ref made a bad call, why doesn't he change the call? Many variables here to discuss. First, it is the refs call. No one, not even the rules interpreters can make a ref change a call. The only things that can be done, as an assistant, is bring what he saw to the attention of the ref. The ref will decide who had the better view of the action in question, and make the best decision based upon all of this information. Are there egos at play? Sometimes there might be. But most of the guys on the state mats know they can't see everything and value the assistant. As an assistant, if I say that I have a two points in and I have the takedown, the ref doesn't have to change his call. He can decide to stay with his call. The crowd has no clue that we don't agree, but if the call stands, everyone will think we agreed.

Ah...the good old buddy system. I am not sure how to address that. Are there people who get assignments because they are liked more than others? That happens in every walk of life so to think it doesn't happen in the officiating world is nave.

Here is brief explanation of how refs get state assignments. There is a rating and a ranking system. After every meet, someone from each school present must rate the refs. That gives each ref a rating that is multiplied by the number of votes each ref gets from assigners, rules interpretors, AD's, district board members, association votes, and some votes from other sources (instructors, etc.). That gets you into a pool.

There are 30 refs at the individual tournament. Each district gets their refs to the state meet based upon the ratio of class 1 refs in the district to the number of class 1 refs in the state. That is why there are a larger number of NE refs at the state meet compared to other areas. There is a larger portion of refs in the NE compared to say the NW.
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Old 03-14-19, 09:22 AM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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All of this is accurate with the exception of 'After every meet, someone from each school present must rate the refs.'

It's true to a degree. However, a lot of them do not rate the officials until after the season is over. I would like to see a time limit added. I'm sure most coaches/ADs do not remember well enough what happened Week 1 to rate an official at the end of the season.
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