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  #31  
Old 03-10-19, 03:00 PM
Donkability Donkability is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
time and time again a pushout rule will only make for garbage wrestling and more confusion.

I disagree, it adds a pinch of excitement gives guys a incentive to keep things moving. Also will free up a bunch of the stalling issues and get some of these other rules relaxed more.

It's simple the wrestlers should determine the matches 100 percent of the time. The absolute main goal for the ref is to score the points correctly, make sure everything's legal and protect from injuries if possible.

Why make things more difficult on the ref, why add more bs, why not just let the kids wrestle? There are very few spots where kids are stalling and they are very obvious to the human eye, no other spots should be called and dictated ever!
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  #32  
Old 03-10-19, 03:05 PM
StillNeutral StillNeutral is offline
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I think that with a pushout rule, you will have many particularly upper weights that will just drive their opponnets to the line and shove them out, to me that isn't wrestling , that isn't execution of a wrestling move to me its a cheezy point
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  #33  
Old 03-10-19, 03:47 PM
CincyWrestler CincyWrestler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StillNeutral View Post
If I could provide a scenario, lets say 2 195lb are wrestling and for the first 1:50 there has been no shots maybe just a lot of Russian ties and crappy pommeling, and lets say ive verbaly warned them . That's almost 2 minutes of no action or shots why wouldn't both be stalling in this scenario, wouldn't a double stall call be warranted, even if I didn't call both at the same time, I would be bringing the other fist up when im bringing the other one down. Can I ask why you are against the double stall and your basis as to why it shouldn't be a rule?
I will agree sometimes a ref calls can drastically swing the momentum of a match
I'm against the double stalling rule because I feel, in nuetral, one wrestler has to be pushing the action for the other one to be stalling. There are some scenarios where both guys are doing nothing, mainly in the upper weights, and in those situations if you want to hit 1 guy then the other guy I'm not the biggest fan of it but I understand. Most of the time I see it hit against 2 good wrestlers who battle positions well and don't give many openings for the other guy to score. I saw double stalling hit at state and in the semis of districts at Kettering Fairmont, those should never happen. Also I hate that referees feel they need to create action, just as a principle. If 2 fat guys are both doing nothing and they feel better taking their chances in the ride outs of overtime then fine, who ever is the better rider will win and the next time the losing wrestler will take more chances. I also have a massive gripe with how much stalling is called on the top man but we'll save that for the next thread.
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  #34  
Old 03-10-19, 03:56 PM
CincyWrestler CincyWrestler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LucMurphy134 View Post
As a guy who wore the stripes for a few years, I know how difficult it is, and I try and to cut Refs slack where ever possible, but a few things that I saw over and over this weekend drive me crazy....

- Stalling should be called the same way in the first period as the third. The score and/or situation shouldn't dictate a stall call. 98% of the time, neutral and less than 15 seconds, the guy with the lead was hit with the obligatory stall call, a few times w/in 2 seconds after a whistle. Refs should recognize the difference between a wrestler avoiding action and a wrestler keeping position and defending attacks. You have 6 minutes to score, why reward the wrestler who waited until the last 13 seconds of the match to look busy?
I just want to say how much I appreciate this point. I feel this isn't the case with 90% of refs and it's unfair to the kids. You can dominate 5 minutes of the match and still lose or go to OT because refs reward the last 30 seconds of action far more than the rest. The rule isn't applied right at all. I now nominate LucMurphy134 to be the head of all officials in the state of Ohio. Well done sir, your knowledge and wisdom are unmatched in the Yappi world of officiating.
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  #35  
Old 03-10-19, 04:21 PM
miketyson miketyson is offline
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I am

glad that the majority of the people do not agree with the pushout rule. I also think that the new stalling rules with be better long term its not gonna be perfect year 1.
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  #36  
Old 03-10-19, 04:37 PM
Phaderus Phaderus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyWrestler View Post
I'm against the double stalling rule because I feel, in nuetral, one wrestler has to be pushing the action for the other one to be stalling. There are some scenarios where both guys are doing nothing, mainly in the upper weights, and in those situations if you want to hit 1 guy then the other guy I'm not the biggest fan of it but I understand. Most of the time I see it hit against 2 good wrestlers who battle positions well and don't give many openings for the other guy to score. I saw double stalling hit at state and in the semis of districts at Kettering Fairmont, those should never happen. Also I hate that referees feel they need to create action, just as a principle. If 2 fat guys are both doing nothing and they feel better taking their chances in the ride outs of overtime then fine, who ever is the better rider will win and the next time the losing wrestler will take more chances. I also have a massive gripe with how much stalling is called on the top man but we'll save that for the next thread.
I completely agree that double stalling is a bad call. In order for there to be staling the other kid needs to be working for advancement.

The majority of the times I have seent stalling, the ref allowed one kid to stall and to do nothing but counter. The other wrestler realizes that the only way the other wrestler is trying to score is off of counters and they will stop giving them something to counter. They are not going to take all the risk. The ref then calls double stalling to counter a situation that he created in the first place.
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  #37  
Old 03-10-19, 05:49 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaderus View Post
I completely agree that double stalling is a bad call. In order for there to be staling the other kid needs to be working for advancement.

The majority of the times I have seent stalling, the ref allowed one kid to stall and to do nothing but counter. The other wrestler realizes that the only way the other wrestler is trying to score is off of counters and they will stop giving them something to counter. They are not going to take all the risk. The ref then calls double stalling to counter a situation that he created in the first place.

These posts on the negativity of double stalling has me considering a couple points. Firstly, I'm getting the feeling that double stalling is being called more often outside of the NE. In the NE it is not called often, but when I've observed it being made it's been done by officials that I respect, have proven themselves under fire, and is a non issue with the coaches (usually obvious). If double stalling is being called quite often I would tend to believe that there might be an issue with the referee's officiating skills. Just as calls for caution sometimes make an official seem like he's looking for "boogers", so might double stalling. Secondly, I have never seen an admonishment, bulletin, or article by the National Federation or OHSAA discouraging the call of double stalling. Maybe it's called too often in your part of the state. Hate it all you want, but it's not going away.
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  #38  
Old 03-10-19, 08:02 PM
MPhillips MPhillips is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oubobcat1991 View Post


2 steal calls in the last 10 seconds of the match to send to overtime
My kid earned the win. The official decided he wasn’t not good enough to advance so he gave two quick calls to give the better kid on any other day the opportunity to win it.
I don't understand the, 'call' either? I too would be 'gutted' for my kid.

Last edited by MPhillips; 03-10-19 at 11:07 PM.
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  #39  
Old 03-10-19, 09:47 PM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Not gonna lie, I watched that video without audio and thought it was a bad call. Then I watched end with audio, and you literally were telling him to stall. Keep the Russian, we havenít been hit yet, etc...soooo

Guys at table were looking back at you...maybe ref heard you telling him to stall and thought ďok thenĒ.

That said, Iíd never have called the first one (second one he was backing and blocking). First one was crap as he had taken last shot (with the lead) seconds before, and was in middle of mat
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  #40  
Old 03-10-19, 09:49 PM
CincyWrestler CincyWrestler is offline
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Wow, that's awful. Page 1, rule 1....GET INVOLVED! That ref lives by that motto.
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  #41  
Old 03-10-19, 09:58 PM
szerszen szerszen is offline
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At a district tournament the week before, I did notice some officials that seemed to have the propensity to make matches closer by using the stall call in the 3rd period. If a kid is stalling, by all means, call it. But if we are calling stalling to send it to overtime to put on a show, that is bothersome.
We try to tell our kids and parents if they don’t like the other kid stalling, then don’t let him have the lead.
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  #42  
Old 03-11-19, 05:49 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oubobcat1991 View Post
This thread is called ask the ref. Ref, why did that official call stalling with 10-12 seconds lleft just after that same kid took a deep shot (taking more risk) while moving forward fighting for position?
Your wrestler should have been hit with fleeing the mat when you screamed oasis. Just saying.
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  #43  
Old 03-11-19, 05:52 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oubobcat1991 View Post
This thread is called ask the ref. Ref, why did that official call stalling with 10-12 seconds lleft just after that same kid took a deep shot (taking more risk) while moving forward fighting for position?
No, this thread is called "State Tournament Officiating".
You are posting so much that you don't even remember what, or where, you posted.

Earlier you stated "Officiating should be like a football long-snapper. You only know his name if he makes a mistake."
Do you know his name?

Is any of this going to change anything?
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  #44  
Old 03-11-19, 08:29 AM
HomeRun10 HomeRun10 is offline
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I think what needs to happen, is the state needs to find a better way to evaluate the officials. There was an official from our county there who has no business doing a state tournament, but if other schools put the names down because they know the official, then this is what you get. Right now, the state asks that each school recommend at least 5 officials for post season recommendation. If you go to all local tournaments and have the same officials almost weekly, it is easy to see how these guys get their names down.
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  #45  
Old 03-11-19, 10:22 AM
bulldowg_Wrestling19 bulldowg_Wrestling19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBone 22 View Post
The officials at this years state tournament were the most inconsistent I have ever seen. Undecisive, lost, too involved. The best referees in the state should be refereeing. Period! Not the current rotation, reward system that is in place. Too many unsure/bad/ no back point count calls were the direct cause of losses in this tournament.
I have seen this all year, guys just literally not counting or bothing to get down to count. Was there some emphasis put on not counting backs fast, or waiting for a second or two to start? Serious question, because that is what I have seen this year.
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  #46  
Old 03-11-19, 11:01 AM
Donkability Donkability is online now
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in most cases its not the officials, its the stupid rules. time for overhaul real easy nobodys listening.
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  #47  
Old 03-11-19, 11:27 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkability View Post
in most cases its not the officials, its the stupid rules. time for overhaul real easy nobodys listening.
I am all for making my life easier so I have to ask what those easy changes might be?
I love change that works and makes things better.
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  #48  
Old 03-11-19, 12:12 PM
SWOHWrestling SWOHWrestling is offline
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A couple observations when having a wrestler on deck.
One match ended in the 3rd overtime and the towel boy (official but not at this tournament) had the kids stay on the mat. He went and got Jim V. brought him over to the mat. and had him change a ruling.
Another match I saw the head official whom was in good position count a 1 count for near fall twice. The assistant official that was not in good position tell the head official he had a 2 count and then the head official gave 2 near fall points.
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  #49  
Old 03-11-19, 12:50 PM
2sportcoach 2sportcoach is offline
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Jim,
I'm not a big fan of the push out rule for stalling. I can't remember what match it was in the finals. The kid was playing the out of bounds real well, but as his opponent do you chase him and worry about being for stalling? Just doesn't make sense need to go to college rule or back to the old way.

2nd issue I have, can someone please explain the whole locking hands? I saw in the consi-semis were the ref awarded 4 points to a kid saying it was locking hands. I saw the first call and to me it looked like your normal scramble loss of control by top man and he was trying to get back in control.

3rd, I saw a few things down there as a coach that the refs would call out of bounds than the same thing happen and not (very inconsistent weekend). Even one of the boppers getting in the way of a takedown. I'm sorry but how does that not happen all year with kids and parents working a table but it does at the state tournament.
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  #50  
Old 03-11-19, 01:02 PM
LilPanda LilPanda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sportcoach View Post
Jim,
I'm not a big fan of the push out rule for stalling. I can't remember what match it was in the finals. The kid was playing the out of bounds real well, but as his opponent do you chase him and worry about being for stalling? Just doesn't make sense need to go to college rule or back to the old way.

2nd issue I have, can someone please explain the whole locking hands? I saw in the consi-semis were the ref awarded 4 points to a kid saying it was locking hands. I saw the first call and to me it looked like your normal scramble loss of control by top man and he was trying to get back in control.

3rd, I saw a few things down there as a coach that the refs would call out of bounds than the same thing happen and not (very inconsistent weekend). Even one of the boppers getting in the way of a takedown. I'm sorry but how does that not happen all year with kids and parents working a table but it does at the state tournament.


Great points. The issue with counting backs is that it seems the refs are waiting until they are down on the ground to start counting. I saw multiple times where refs would wait 1-2 second until they were on the ground to count or where they were in bad position and didnít count clear near fall until they got into better position hence the wrestler not getting points they deserve. I was really taken aback so I talked to my dad (a ref) about the referring and naturally I was assured refs wanna do their best and that you teach your kids to take the ref out of the match. He watched the finals and text me that I was right. Now there is this whole thread. Are we all crazy or is it highly possible the officiating needs a heavy examination and reconstruction. My heart broke so many times watching wrestlers loose matches they clearly won. I hate to take away from the people who benefitted from it but true competitors donít care to win that way. They would rather loose than win improperly. These refs are no longer competitors and thatís part of the problem. It would be nice if there was a directory of refs with pictures where once a week upvotes and downvotes could be cast by people who had them at their matches/tournaments. Then the guys with the largest upvote downvote differential wins. Makes the refs compete to be the best and helps them remember what is important when it comes to competition. Refs who involve themselves to much would be highly downvoted and never make the state tournament.


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  #51  
Old 03-11-19, 01:11 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilPanda View Post
Great points. The issue with counting backs is that it seems the refs are waiting until they are down on the ground to start counting. I saw multiple times where refs would wait 1-2 second until they were on the ground to count or where they were in bad position and didnít count clear near fall until they got into better position hence the wrestler not getting points they deserve. I was really taken aback so I talked to my dad (a ref) about the referring and naturally I was assured refs wanna do their best and that you teach your kids to take the ref out of the match. He watched the finals and text me that I was right. Now there is this whole thread. Are we all crazy or is it highly possible the officiating needs a heavy examination and reconstruction. My heart broke so many times watching wrestlers loose matches they clearly won. I hate to take away from the people who benefitted from it but true competitors donít care to win that way. They would rather loose than win improperly. These refs are no longer competitors and thatís part of the problem. It would be nice if there was a directory of refs with pictures where once a week upvotes and downvotes could be cast by people who had them at their matches/tournaments. Then the guys with the largest upvote downvote differential wins. Makes the refs compete to be the best and helps them remember what is important when it comes to competition. Refs who involve themselves to much would be highly downvoted and never make the state tournament.


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If you were to hear some of the real reasons that cause your complaints/concerns I suspect you would be stunned. The changes started about 2006 and I will let you figure out why that happened.
I was not there to see the event in person but I have watched a few videos. I have my own thoughts.
BTW, no longer being a competitor has nothing to do with one's ability to officiate a contest. If being a competitor was a requirement, we would have giant linemen officiating football and 7' tall monsters doing basketball. It takes a desire and ability to constantly listen and learn.
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  #52  
Old 03-11-19, 02:54 PM
LilPanda LilPanda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
If you were to hear some of the real reasons that cause your complaints/concerns I suspect you would be stunned. The changes started about 2006 and I will let you figure out why that happened.

I was not there to see the event in person but I have watched a few videos. I have my own thoughts.

BTW, no longer being a competitor has nothing to do with one's ability to officiate a contest. If being a competitor was a requirement, we would have giant linemen officiating football and 7' tall monsters doing basketball. It takes a desire and ability to constantly listen and learn.


No one said that they should be wrestling competitors just competitors in general. Those refs in football and basketball were vetted and are in highly sought after competitive positions. If they make mistakes they are fined and/or fired/suspended. It is not that way for our officials and they are not competing with each other to be at the state tournament. So I believe Iíve clearly refuted that part of your point.


After that I honestly have no idea what the rest of your comment means or is referring to. Please be more specific. But I am curious at your thoughts on the officiating and specific changes that could be implemented to help.


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  #53  
Old 03-11-19, 03:01 PM
Donkability Donkability is online now
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Originally Posted by StillNeutral View Post
I think that with a pushout rule, you will have many particularly upper weights that will just drive their opponnets to the line and shove them out, to me that isn't wrestling , that isn't execution of a wrestling move to me its a cheezy point

Its what they do any ways, why not make it worth something?
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  #54  
Old 03-11-19, 03:29 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by LilPanda View Post
No one said that they should be wrestling competitors just competitors in general. Those refs in football and basketball were vetted and are in highly sought after competitive positions. If they make mistakes they are fined and/or fired/suspended. It is not that way for our officials and they are not competing with each other to be at the state tournament. So I believe Iíve clearly refuted that part of your point.


After that I honestly have no idea what the rest of your comment means or is referring to. Please be more specific. But I am curious at your thoughts on the officiating and specific changes that could be implemented to help.


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I don't see it as refuting anything. More an example of how something can be written that is clear to one person but comes across differently to someone else. IOW, a misunderstanding of what was meant.

These officials are also highly paid, we are not. There is a shortage of officials now, do you think that would help? I doubt it but am willing to be proven wrong.

Regarding the other points, you mentioned that your Dad is an official? If so, ask him about the change made in 2006 concerning selections. If he has been paying attention, I would have to think that he would be able to explain it to you. Over the years,I have gotten in enough trouble for several officials.
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  #55  
Old 03-11-19, 10:14 PM
bad marriage bad marriage is offline
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going to have to give the ref's their due here. I saw three wrong calls, that were questioned, conferred between the two refs, and then corrected... they got it right each time... can't ask for more than that...
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  #56  
Old 03-11-19, 10:31 PM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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The slam call in 145 pound final I did not agree with. Andonian lifts Donathan begins to return him and then Donathan granbys on the way down. He put himself on his head
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  #57  
Old 03-12-19, 07:15 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
The slam call in 145 pound final I did not agree with. Andonian lifts Donathan begins to return him and then Donathan granbys on the way down. He put himself on his head
This gets brought up every year and almost weekly.

When a wrestler is lifted in the air, the lifting wrestler is responsible for his safe return. It does not matter if the lifted wrestler creates an action that aids in an unsafe return. That's exactly what happened in this match. Wrestler was clearly lifted, then returned to the mat on his head. Easy illegal move/ roughness call.
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  #58  
Old 03-12-19, 07:23 AM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
This gets brought up every year and almost weekly.

When a wrestler is lifted in the air, the lifting wrestler is responsible for his safe return. It does not matter if the lifted wrestler creates an action that aids in an unsafe return. That's exactly what happened in this match. Wrestler was clearly lifted, then returned to the mat on his head. Easy illegal move/ roughness call.
So you’re saying if I intentionally put myself in danger, it is now the top man who is ultimately responsible for controlling him while he’s doing such things?

Nothing about what Andonian did was unsafe, it was the bottom guy who engaged in an unsafe attempt and that makes it hard for me to punish the kid who was trying a simple mat return.

Last edited by TakedownFor2; 03-12-19 at 07:42 AM.
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  #59  
Old 03-12-19, 07:44 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
So youíre saying if I intentionally put myself in danger, it is now the top man who is ultimately responsible for controlling him while heís doing such things?

Nothing about what Andonian did was unsafe, it was the bottom guy who engaged in an unsafe attempt.
I was not there and did not see this happen so I have no interest in any way.
The first part we would disagree over is your idea that he "intentionally" put himself in danger. Things like this happen in a hurry.
That said, when a wrestler takes the opponent off the mat, he is always responsible for the safe return. What the man being lifted does is of no consequence. The rules do not give us the latitude to determine how or why someone changed position while in the air (and there really isn't time anyway).
Safe or unsafe is not part of the equation. The question is, was he returned with unnecessary force? If in the opinion of the official he was, it is a slam.
Additionally a slam can be called on either the offensive or defensive wrestler and it is to be called without hesitation.
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  #60  
Old 03-12-19, 07:52 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
So youíre saying if I intentionally put myself in danger, it is now the top man who is ultimately responsible for controlling him while heís doing such things?

Nothing about what Andonian did was unsafe, it was the bottom guy who engaged in an unsafe attempt and that makes it hard for me to punish the kid who was trying a simple mat return.
If he lifts him up in the air, yes. HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RETURN OF THE LIFTED MAN TO THE MAT! That rule has been in place for years. The only way that would be different is if the lifted wrestler pokes the lifting wrestler in the eyes or something. Even then, the ref would blow the whistle to stop action and the lifting man still couldn't drop him with any force. If the poke causes them to fall or something, I'm sure it could be looked at a little differently. Ask an official to be sure.


To be honest, if I'm a coach, we would practice safe returns, but I'm telling the kids not to lift. Crackdown, drive through like a football tackle, switch off and turn the corner, try anything but a lift. Lifts would be last resort.
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