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  #91  
Old 03-14-19, 09:27 AM
#Hashtag #Hashtag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjjsj View Post
All of this is accurate with the exception of 'After every meet, someone from each school present must rate the refs.'

It's true to a degree. However, a lot of them do not rate the officials until after the season is over. I would like to see a time limit added. I'm sure most coaches/ADs do not remember well enough what happened Week 1 to rate an official at the end of the season.
What would be nice is if Arbiter implemented a "how was your service" rating system after each contest is completed (all sports).

Host school will give a rating 1-5 stars upon paying the officials for the contest completed. These can then accumulate and have a small impact or at least a guidance for when officials are selected for post-season.
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  #92  
Old 03-14-19, 09:33 AM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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I like that idea. However, Arbiter is their own entity. That could be an easier fix though if both entities could get in agreement and incorporate this.
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  #93  
Old 03-14-19, 09:35 AM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Except for just having the host school though. All the schools at the event rate.
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  #94  
Old 03-14-19, 10:26 AM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwikel View Post
I will try to answer this, if I am understanding your confusing post.

Wrestler A is leading 5-1 into the third period. If I understand your complaint, the refs have a tendency to warn A for stalling. I listened to some radio for the state tournament the first two days when I was at work. One of the announcers said the refs have a tendency to warn wrestlers for leading. I thought that was funny but is there some truth to it, and if that is the impression of Ohio officiating, that isn't good.

Now why would A get warned. I would warn him if he stops wrestling and starts evading chances to score. The rulebook says "...regardless of time, position or score." When starts to protect and not working to score, he needs to be warned. For B to have chances to score, A needs to engage action. Now, I am not saying he needs to be reckless, only that he needs to engage. Try to advance his position. Work up on bottom, break the man down on top.

Second item. If the assistant ref know the ref made a bad call, why doesn't he change the call? Many variables here to discuss. First, it is the refs call. No one, not even the rules interpreters can make a ref change a call. The only things that can be done, as an assistant, is bring what he saw to the attention of the ref. The ref will decide who had the better view of the action in question, and make the best decision based upon all of this information. Are there egos at play? Sometimes there might be. But most of the guys on the state mats know they can't see everything and value the assistant. As an assistant, if I say that I have a two points in and I have the takedown, the ref doesn't have to change his call. He can decide to stay with his call. The crowd has no clue that we don't agree, but if the call stands, everyone will think we agreed.

Ah...the good old buddy system. I am not sure how to address that. Are there people who get assignments because they are liked more than others? That happens in every walk of life so to think it doesn't happen in the officiating world is naÔve.

Here is brief explanation of how refs get state assignments. There is a rating and a ranking system. After every meet, someone from each school present must rate the refs. That gives each ref a rating that is multiplied by the number of votes each ref gets from assigners, rules interpretors, AD's, district board members, association votes, and some votes from other sources (instructors, etc.). That gets you into a pool.

There are 30 refs at the individual tournament. Each district gets their refs to the state meet based upon the ratio of class 1 refs in the district to the number of class 1 refs in the state. That is why there are a larger number of NE refs at the state meet compared to other areas. There is a larger portion of refs in the NE compared to say the NW.
Couple things to comment here...

I appreciate your feedback and have had a few conversations with you at tables during tournaments. You are always respectful and easy to talk to which is a testament to you. We had an altercation 6-7 years ago at the state wrestling tournament where you were the AR and a questionable call happened. You presented your view and the official kept his call. I got on you quite a bit as the call was obviously wrong and your explanation of how you explained to him what you saw and that it was ultimately up to him helped clear things up for me on what the AR role actually is so I appreciate you taking the time to share that at the time.

Could you speak a little bit more to the ratios? Do you happen to know them? Or where one could go to find them? Being from the NW, I saw a few guys that represented our area down there and as a team we travel to a few of the larger tournaments so I have seen a good deal of officials across the state. I did not recognize or see a lot of familiar faces this year outside those of NW Ohio.

To be honest, I did not see anything blatantly wrong with the officiating at the state tournament. Are there going to be missed calls or bad calls? absolutely, but not enough that I was continuously hearing things or even saw myself.
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  #95  
Old 03-14-19, 10:57 AM
Psychoff Psychoff is offline
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No offense on how officials are rated, but the MULTIPLIER process went out a few years back. Now, an official can earn a perfect score of 60.
15 pts from the association vote.
15 pts from the administrative group.
15 pts combined from the mean, median and mode of the coaches' ratings.
15 pts from AD votes which is usually influenced by the head coach.
Then you are in a pool based on Class 1 officials in Ohio, how many are in your District, your points and then your percentile ranking, I think.
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  #96  
Old 03-14-19, 11:40 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjjsj View Post
All of this is accurate with the exception of 'After every meet, someone from each school present must rate the refs.'

It's true to a degree. However, a lot of them do not rate the officials until after the season is over. I would like to see a time limit added. I'm sure most coaches/ADs do not remember well enough what happened Week 1 to rate an official at the end of the season.
I agree with your exception. I am not aware of any coach who rates officials after every contest and most wait until their AD reminds them that they have to do it at the end of the season.
In reality, most coaches know guys by sight but very seldom by name. That is a problem when they want to vote.
Contrary to the way it was done when the head coaches were the only vote that counted, we now have people voting that do not know wrestling or would not know a good official from a bad official. That is the reality of it.
Furthermore, if you read the criteria for selection, it would make your head explode.
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  #97  
Old 03-14-19, 12:08 PM
madmaxrockatansky madmaxrockatansky is offline
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Wrestler A has Wrestler B (basically in starting bottom position and does not have a single) locked in a cradle, with the cradle leg studded with Wrestler A's knee.

Was not a take down at the State Tournament. Reason given was that Wrestler B was not showing signs of going to his back.
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  #98  
Old 03-14-19, 12:24 PM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madmaxrockatansky View Post
Wrestler A has Wrestler B (basically in starting bottom position and does not have a single) locked in a cradle, with the cradle leg studded with Wrestler A's knee.

Was not a take down at the State Tournament. Reason given was that Wrestler B was not showing signs of going to his back.
unless he drive him over to his hip or buttocks I would agree no TD there...
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  #99  
Old 03-14-19, 12:32 PM
wrestlfan wrestlfan is offline
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officials should not be on an open public forum complaining to or about coaches.
Very unprofessional
only furthers the opinions of bias among officials
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  #100  
Old 03-14-19, 01:50 PM
jfide650 jfide650 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
unless he drive him over to his hip or buttocks I would agree no TD there...
Agree 100%. Contrary to what coaches yell from the chairs, a cradle does not automatically show restraint and control until the defensive wrestler is off base and onto his hip. The same with a merkle. There is no restraint and control until the offensive wrestler extends the arms of the defensive wrestler out. Until that time the wrestlers are in a merkle like position.
Both restraint and control must be demonstrated before the 2 can be awarded.
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  #101  
Old 03-14-19, 02:19 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Originally Posted by jfide650 View Post
Agree 100%. Contrary to what coaches yell from the chairs, a cradle does not automatically show restraint and control until the defensive wrestler is off base and onto his hip. The same with a merkle. There is no restraint and control until the offensive wrestler extends the arms of the defensive wrestler out. Until that time the wrestlers are in a merkle like position.
Both restraint and control must be demonstrated before the 2 can be awarded.

Well put JF.
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  #102  
Old 03-14-19, 06:55 PM
Ohio Blast Ohio Blast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
I agree with your exception. I am not aware of any coach who rates officials after every contest and most wait until their AD reminds them that they have to do it at the end of the season.
In reality, most coaches know guys by sight but very seldom by name. That is a problem when they want to vote.
Contrary to the way it was done when the head coaches were the only vote that counted, we now have people voting that do not know wrestling or would not know a good official from a bad official. That is the reality of it.
Furthermore, if you read the criteria for selection, it would make your head explode.
For the life of me I can not understand why the coaches aren't 100% responsible for the selection of the postseason officials.
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  #103  
Old 03-14-19, 08:12 PM
StillNeutral StillNeutral is offline
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Originally Posted by #Hashtag View Post
What would be nice is if Arbiter implemented a "how was your service" rating system after each contest is completed (all sports).

Host school will give a rating 1-5 stars upon paying the officials for the contest completed. These can then accumulate and have a small impact or at least a guidance for when officials are selected for post-season.


Along with being a an ohio official , I am also an official of another state, and we use this rating system. Now if you rate an official a 4or 5 (1 being the best) you must provide how that official is misapplying a rule and quote it. Now this is truly a double edged sword. If certain coaches like an official they may give him 1 or 2 and if they see this official a lot they may get a lot from this school. Doesn't mean they are a bad official but doesn't mean they are good either, maybe team a stalls and this official doesn't call stalling a lot, so they like them, other teams may not feel the same way. Officials sometimes see schools a lot over a season, so it may not be the best representation of an official, then again he may be very good and just keeps seeing the same teams a lot.
I myself have made some tight and tough calls, and been blasted on my rating for it, but I felt they did not understand a rule or didn't like the call , and its in a way an open market to beat on an official. There was even a case where I was wrote up by a coach who wasn't even a coach of either competitor in that particular match. That I felt was very very wrong, but I also have to way to rebut their rating I have to eat it. In talking to some other officials this year. there were some that were wrote up at the post season event where they were at, funny thing is they were not at those events,they were at completely different tournaments.
this rating system can be good and bad, but has offered more bad than good imo. As the adage says if it aint broke
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  #104  
Old 03-14-19, 09:13 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Blast View Post
For the life of me I can not understand why the coaches aren't 100% responsible for the selection of the postseason officials.
I agree with you 100%.
The way it is structured now, the coaches vote means very little.
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  #105  
Old 03-15-19, 07:07 AM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Blast View Post
For the life of me I can not understand why the coaches aren't 100% responsible for the selection of the postseason officials.
That doesn't work. I know for a fact that before coaches would just vote for their buddies. For example there was a ref that got votes for wrestling because he would do the coaches peewee football games. They could do a bad job but still get votes.

This still happens. Difference is that now the coaches do not have all the influence.

A lot of schools wait until the end of year to rate and can rate officials they have never even seen EVER. At least I know that happens in football. I'm guessing it's across all the sports. So I will take the current system over the old because some of that nonsense gets canceled out.
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  #106  
Old 03-15-19, 07:16 AM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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In the employment world there are policies and things that can be improved upon and the ratings systems are no different.

However, this is why rules are changed and added in sports. Sometimes as a lot of you know (or have opinions about) make things worse and sometimes things improve.

Kind of like the freestyle rules. They kept changing them and it was awful, from the ball grab to the clinch, etc. But the current rules are awesome!
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  #107  
Old 03-15-19, 08:06 AM
Campolongo Campolongo is offline
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Originally Posted by wjjsj View Post

A lot of schools wait until the end of year to rate and can rate officials they have never even seen EVER. At least I know that happens in football. I'm guessing it's across all the sports. So I will take the current system over the old because some of that nonsense gets canceled out.
The way the rating system is in place makes it difficult to rate. You have to type in the name of the official for it to be displayed and then vote. You could have an official who was excellent but either can't remember or don't know there name. So they miss out on your vote.

Though time consuming (initially), OHSAA could make for a much easier process if they were to list out all officials (section off by district/area) and have each name accompanied by a photograph. Make it much easier and user-friendly for any coach. Do this, and you'll likely see an increase in coaches participation in this capacity. OR link that district/area referee website at top of the section to allow users to visit the local chapter's site to potentially view photos as displayed on those sties.
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  #108  
Old 03-15-19, 08:07 AM
wash.c.h.legend wash.c.h.legend is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campolongo View Post
The way the rating system is in place makes it difficult to rate. You have to type in the name of the official for it to be displayed and then vote. You could have an official who was excellent but either can't remember or don't know there name. So they miss out on your vote.



Though time consuming (initially), OHSAA could make for a much easier process if they were to list out all officials (section off by district/area) and have each name accompanied by a photograph. Make it much easier and user-friendly for any coach. Do this, and you'll likely see an increase in coaches participation in this capacity.


Very good idea


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  #109  
Old 03-15-19, 08:38 AM
Ohio Blast Ohio Blast is offline
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Originally Posted by wjjsj View Post
That doesn't work. I know for a fact that before coaches would just vote for their buddies. For example there was a ref that got votes for wrestling because he would do the coaches peewee football games. They could do a bad job but still get votes.

This still happens. Difference is that now the coaches do not have all the influence.

A lot of schools wait until the end of year to rate and can rate officials they have never even seen EVER. At least I know that happens in football. I'm guessing it's across all the sports. So I will take the current system over the old because some of that nonsense gets canceled out.
And you think that was worse than what is currently happening under the current system with weighted voting by district boards and association officers?
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  #110  
Old 03-15-19, 08:56 AM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campolongo View Post
The way the rating system is in place makes it difficult to rate. You have to type in the name of the official for it to be displayed and then vote. You could have an official who was excellent but either can't remember or don't know there name. So they miss out on your vote.

Though time consuming (initially), OHSAA could make for a much easier process if they were to list out all officials (section off by district/area) and have each name accompanied by a photograph. Make it much easier and user-friendly for any coach. Do this, and you'll likely see an increase in coaches participation in this capacity. OR link that district/area referee website at top of the section to allow users to visit the local chapter's site to potentially view photos as displayed on those sties.
I like this. Anything that makes it more user friendly and balanced I'm for.
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  #111  
Old 03-15-19, 09:00 AM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Originally Posted by Ohio Blast View Post
And you think that was worse than what is currently happening under the current system with weighted voting by district boards and association officers?
Yes.

When an AD or Coach can call someone and say, "Hey, I don't know whom to vote for on refs. Whom do you suggest and I'll put them down.", I do not want that to be the only entity determining whom gets to officiate in the post season.

This is not a hypothetical. That happens. So they can vote/rate for people that they have never had officiate their event and never even heard of. I absolutely want their to be ratings from other entities as well such as officials, associations, assigners, etc.

If a better system is developed I am all for it. I have some suggestions that could better it but doesn't mean my way is right.
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  #112  
Old 03-15-19, 09:26 AM
lwikel lwikel is offline
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Here is the info on myohsaa for my ratings. I have included my ratings as a guide...I assume they re good but I truly have no idea because I have no context of how I compare with my peers. That information would be valuable to a person trying to improve.

The first number if the Coach's total and the second is my composite.

Wrestling Boys 14.57000 57.57000

The information displayed is a result of the rating and voting from the previous school year. Average Ratings and Composite Scores are updated annually on July 1.

The tournament selection process utilized for the sports of baseball, basketball, football, soccer, softball, volleyball and wrestling are outlined below. All other sports operate under a somewhat different system, and are outlined in the OHSAA Handbook for Officials under Tournament Selection.

The maximum Composite Score is 60 and is determined by four groups; head coaches, schools (athletic administrators and coaches), officials (local officiating associations), and officiating leaders. Each of the four groups have an equal weight in the process.

1. Coaches rate officials on a 1 to 5 scale for each Varsity game. If an official receives fewer than 15 ratings, the official receives a rating of 2.5 for each rating fewer than 15. The officialís highest 3 and lowest 5 ratings are deleted and the officialís remaining ratings are used to determine the mean, median and mode of the officialís ratings. Those three are totaled for a possible maximum score of 15.
2. Schools (athletic directors are responsible for submitting the ballot, preferably after consulting their coach) vote for a maximum of 15 officials. The maximum number of votes an official could receive from athletic directors is capped at 15.
3. Officials vote through their Local Officials Association. The selection procedure must be conducted in an open and transparent fashion and must be determined by a vote of all members, including Class 2. All Class 1 officials are eligible for consideration and may not be excluded for any reason (except if they voluntarily withdraw). Officials are not voted for by position. An official belonging to more than one local association is eligible for consideration from all associations in which a member, but receives the vote from only the association in which the official ranked highest.
a. Associations vote for 25% of their active membership divided into 5 groups, each representing 5% of membership. Based on 1-5 grouping, with 5 being the highest, group 5 receives 15 votes, group 4 receives 12 votes, group 3 receives 9 votes, group 2 receives 6 votes and group 1 receives 3 votes.
4. Select assigners, local association secretaries and interpreters, instructors currently teaching a class, directors of officiating development, OHSAA administrators, and select OHSAA assigned tournament observers and others as determined by the Assistant Commissioner may vote. A person serving in more than one of these categories may vote from only one of them. The maximum number of votes an official could receive from assigners, secretaries, interpreters, et al. is capped at 15.
a. Assigners of varsity sports and have an evaluation/observation program in place may vote for 25% of the number of varsity officials they assign. Assigners vote on a 3-point scale with one being the lowest and three being the highest.
b. Local Association secretaries vote for 25% of their Local Association membership and may vote for officials outside of their association.
c. Interpreters vote for 25% of their Local Association membership and may vote for officials outside of their association.
d. Instructors currently teaching a class may vote for 30 officials in the sport they teach.
e. Directors of officiating development may vote for an unlimited number of officials. They will vote on a five-point scale with one being the lowest and five being the highest.
f. OHSAA administrators may vote for an unlimited number of officials. They will vote on a five-point scale with one being the lowest and five being the highest.
g.. OHSAA assigned tournament observers and others selected by the Assistant Commissioner may vote for a maximum of 30 officials.
The rankings determine the level of tournament at which an official is eligible. There is a pool of officials eligible for the state tournament and all levels below. There is a pool of officials eligible for the regional tournaments and below. And there is a pool of officials eligible for the sectional/district tournaments and below. Lastly, there are a number of officials listed as alternates for sectional tournaments. The pool of officials is approximately 3 times larger than the number of officials needed to work at any given level or tournaments.

All sectional and district tournament assignments are made under the supervision/direction of the district athletic boards. The regional and state tournament assignments are made under the supervision/direction of the OHSAA Commissionerís Office. Actual assignments are made after considering additional factors such as diversity (geographic location, race, gender, and years of experience), type of regular season schedule, availability, and some sports, position officiated. State rules interpreters and other who are knowledgeable about officials are consulted and assist in the assigning process.
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  #113  
Old 03-15-19, 09:32 AM
lwikel lwikel is offline
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With regard to the ratios, lets say there are 600 class 1 officials in the state. Let's say there are 200 of them in the NE and 100 of them in the NW. So 200/600 (1/3) of the state refs will come from the NE and 1/6 will come from the NW. There are 30 refs at the state individual meet, so 10 of them will be NE. These numbers are not entirely accurate, but it gives you and idea. The SW and NW have been close in the last couple of years, with the Central one or two refs behind. The E/SE is usually two or three refs combined.
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  #114  
Old 03-15-19, 10:17 AM
Imareftoo Imareftoo is offline
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I have been an official for a long time, and "the powers that be" still control who officiates in the post season. The ratings are not always used to determine assignments, (I am sure they take part in it) but that is not how all are chosen. "Observations" have a lot to do with the choosing as well.
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  #115  
Old 03-15-19, 11:27 AM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Originally Posted by Imareftoo View Post
I have been an official for a long time, and "the powers that be" still control who officiates in the post season. The ratings are not always used to determine assignments, (I am sure they take part in it) but that is not how all are chosen. "Observations" have a lot to do with the choosing as well.
This!!!!!! With the old system it was nice to actually know that the number next to your name meant something. You could see how you were ranked against your peers (good, bad, or ugly). Today's ranking numbers mean nothing because you're unable to see how you compare to your peers. I disagree with the wide variety of input. Regardless of how one is evaluated there will always be some degree of bias, but I see coaches (not AD's, assigners, or peers) as being the most accurate source of evaluating officials. Why not peers? There are numerous issues that are better left alone. But as the above quote alludes to, the THREE "powers to be" are the only real deciders.
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  #116  
Old 03-15-19, 12:48 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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A lot of what has been stated is true. Everyone has their own thoughts and that's why we are free to have opinions.

I stand by my current feelings. I definitely do not see coaches as the most accurate and probably see them as the least. I had a coach say to me (more than one by the way), "I only rate officials when they make me mad." I asked, "So you don't rate if the official does a good job." His reply, "No. I don't rate anyone unless they make me mad and then I rate them low as possible."

This same coach complained about better officials not being at the Sectionals and Districts that year. I told him you cannot complain when you are part of the problem utilizing the rating system like that. He is a cool guy and we have always gotten along great. He just doesn't find that to be at the top of his importance list.

So, NO!!!!!! I do not want the bulk of the rating and voting coming from the coaches. Powers that be pick whom they want with some input from the ratings system in the other sports too.

From the old system I heard there were guys that hadn't even done a sectional that were rated high enough to be in the state pool. I had a ref that was in that situation that was overwhelmed at the thought of officiating a district. A different official overwhelmed at during a state placement type match in a regular season tournament.

Last edited by wjjsj; 03-15-19 at 01:54 PM.
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  #117  
Old 03-15-19, 01:02 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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I also know this won't be a popular post, but the quality of officiating sure differs by geographic districts. There are excellent officials in each district, but there is a sharp contrast in the percentage of quality in different districts. This becomes an important factor when you consider the recent emphasis on rotating officials every 2 yrs.
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  #118  
Old 03-15-19, 01:58 PM
lwikel lwikel is offline
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The only rotation I am aware of is the 2 out of 3 rule. You can only ref two state tournaments before having to sit the next one out. You can only do one of the two in a season...duels or individual. I had duels this year, so I also had to sit out the Regional duels. I am not sure the reasoning for that, but that's how things worked in the NW.

The only way to gain that assignment to the state meet is to improve. Just keep getting better. Perfect your mechanics and get someone you trust to have a critical eye on your mechanics and positioning. Talk through situations just after the match when they are fresh. Admit that you need to improve and ask for help. Even ask the coaches if they have any advice without regard to the close calls.

Just be better and admit you can't be perfect but try like hell anyway. When you make a mistake, admit it, fix it, and move forward.

Lastly, I thought I was ready for a state meet about five years before I really was. I know now that I had no clue what the hell I was really doing but I surely thought I was better than some of those guys down there. Get on a crew and on a team with two very high level guys and you will improve if you can just pick up a fraction of what it is they are doing well. I worked the entire Ironman this year with Kevin Linich and I let him pick me apart. I fixed things I didn't even think I was doing incorrectly. But when you see the preciseness of his mechanics and positioning, you either get closer to his level or you look like a novice next to him.
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