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  #91  
Old 11-02-18, 08:30 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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Maybe....Just Maybe.... this IS the contingency plan, and the best plan.
This is NOT a defense that NTR is the best site for the State Meet or that the course could not be improved, but maybe the "powers that be" did the right thing in this case.
- One big complaint is that coaches/schools/parents all had reservations at hotels, resturants etc. and they had to cancel. That would have been true if it moved to Dayton, Cedarville or anywhere else. If they moved the site now, everyone would still be put out.
- Another compaint is how it effects training or the peaking process... well, if they moved it to a different (more or less challenging) course that would mess things up too as most have "trained" to run well at National Trail...Also, many top kids are still trying to get better for post-season races (footlocker, nike, AAU )later anyway, so this should not be a big deal for those kids and another way to look at it is the kids that are a little "beat up" after the tough regional races have another week to recover and be better.
- Another factor is what is best for the kids... and safety is Always best.
If they raced through standing water, and a top kid got hurt becuase they could not see their footing, many would be more than critical of the OHSAA and NTR. So, no matter what they did, many would turn on the OHSAA/NTR etc. because the State meet is not the IDEAL race that many have in their minds.
- NTR and the Meet organizers may be working all weekend and next week to ensure that the meet is good to go on the 10th. a lot can be done, with the right equipment, in a week to move out water (ditches, kitty litter, wood chips).
NOTE: I do think that Scioto Downs was better than NT as a course and a facility.... and think that there is probably better places out there that may be willing to work with the OHSAA and the OATCCC., but in this situation, the right decision may be what has taken place. We will see.

Last edited by ENA2; 11-02-18 at 08:37 AM.. Reason: typo
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  #92  
Old 11-02-18, 09:43 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
As far as running it somewhere else, there has to be contracts involved that none of us really know about. NTR would be stupid to just allow it to be held somewhere else. Wasn't there a story last year about extending the contract for so many years? Concessions, Law enforcement and other helpers for parking, Ticket sales, Restrooms. You just don't rent restrooms for one site on one day and have it moved 100 miles away for the same day. There was not enough time to move something this big to another site in a day. Just crowd control alone at a new facility would be impossible to plan for in a day. As soon as something went wrong at the new facility, the same people demanding it be moved and run on short notice, would be calling for someones head. Just the awards ceremonies and figuring out where to put the crowd for that at Cedarville would be rough.

I agree, there should be a plan in place for this. I think it is to move it to the following week. Now, if that does not happen, then there are big problems.

Has it been raining in Troy? Would they have been able to have the Regional there if this were last week and they got this amount of rain? I know here in the NE, we have moved the Regional from Boardman to GlenOak, so they could probably pull that off in a day. Could the other Regionals?
Flooding at Troy is not uncommon. They have an alternate layout that they have used that avoids the lowest parts of the floodplain. Hard to believe the state meet managers had not considered the possibility of heavy rain.

Find a better facility. This should be unacceptable.
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  #93  
Old 11-02-18, 11:19 AM
mcm.1019 mcm.1019 is offline
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A decent amount of football teams were forced to move their games this weekend from grass fields to facilities that had turf, and it's not like XC has that sort of option. So you either run in the slop or you postpone.
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  #94  
Old 11-02-18, 11:28 AM
oncearunner oncearunner is offline
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Why must they run all divisions on the same day (both genders)? This is likely why NTR is considered "the only viable option" according to OHSAA's line of thinking.

If you split the race over two days (with, say, Div 1 running on Friday, and then 2/3 on Saturday), the crowd/parking demands for a facility are cut in half.

Doing it this way would allow other venues to come into play. Heck, even Lancaster HS could host such a meet. As could Worthington or Watkins Memorial. Their Invitationals approach crowds of 5000.

With the multitude of possible venues now out there, having a traditional location and a crowd-friendly course becomes realistic, and a developing an emergency backup plan (ideally, something close to the original - to preserve hotel plans) becomes much more feasible.

So c'mon OHSAA. Give up on the "all in one day at one place" approach. It doesn't work for football, basketball, or wrestling - so apply the same logic to XC.

Last edited by oncearunner; 11-02-18 at 11:41 AM..
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  #95  
Old 11-02-18, 11:32 AM
XCFan98 XCFan98 is offline
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options

Lots of options exist outside of postponement.

1. Cedarville on Sunday (Saturday was booked) - stretch out schedule for parking. 9:00am - 1:00pm - 4:00pm etc.
2. Clark County Fairgrounds
3. Hilliard Darby etc.
4. Sunday at NTR - muddy but okay. (3 days to dry out)
5. Monday at NTR - less muddy (4 days)
6. many other options

Bottom line - it can never be at NTR again after this year's debacle.
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  #96  
Old 11-02-18, 11:55 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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I don't like that idea even a little bit. The state meet needs to be big and grand. It should not be split into little meets. Do you want the Regional meets to be bigger than the State meet? Do you want the Tiffin Carnival or Galion or Boardman invites to be the highlight meets of the year? Back in the 80's, we ran 12 races at the state meet. 6 races is doable. There would be a big decrease in attendance. I will go and watch all the races at one location in one day. I would not go watch just D1. If my team is not there, I'm not going to watch D2/D3 either.

You think your way is ideal. I think it's junk. The OHSAA cannot make all of us happy.

I'm thinking of where I usually park. It cannot be good right now. They have had trouble right near the stands in the past with much less rain than this. It can't be good.

There needs to be some money spent on drainage and grading, so that this can't happen. Anyone that used to run at Perry (near lake Erie) has run in much worse conditions than this. So, you can run in it. Making it fair for a state meet is another thing. It's one thing to have fun and come in third when you should have won an invite in the middle of the season. It's another when you lose a state championship and have to pay $100 to have your car towed out of a mud pit.

It will be there again. They have a contract. You just can't walk from contracts.
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  #97  
Old 11-02-18, 12:07 PM
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Lancermania Lancermania is offline
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I got my parking pass in the mail today and it made me ponder what could have been tomorrow. Our kids train all year to for this event, and to put them at NTR is a travesty. We can and should do better than this. In a lawsuit filed by Roger Bacon against the OHSAA, the OHSAA countered that they are a private organization with policies voted on by member schools.

Our kids deserve better than NTR. Can't the member schools take a vote on where they would like this meet to be.
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  #98  
Old 11-02-18, 12:08 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Someone needs to post pics from the grounds tomorrow so we can all access the conditions. I had pics sent to me yesterday evening. Lower parking was a mess. Course was runnable but not ideal.
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  #99  
Old 11-02-18, 12:23 PM
oncearunner oncearunner is offline
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[QUOTE=psycho_dad;7167534]I don't like that idea even a little bit. The state meet needs to be big and grand. It should not be split into little meets. Do you want the Regional meets to be bigger than the State meet? Do you want the Tiffin Carnival or Galion or Boardman invites to be the highlight meets of the year? Back in the 80's, we ran 12 races at the state meet. 6 races is doable. There would be a big decrease in attendance. I will go and watch all the races at one location in one day. I would not go watch just D1. If my team is not there, I'm not going to watch D2/D3 either.

You think your way is ideal. I think it's junk. The OHSAA cannot make all of us happy.

I'm thinking of where I usually park. It cannot be good right now. They have had trouble right near the stands in the past with much less rain than this. It can't be good.

There needs to be some money spent on drainage and grading, so that this can't happen. Anyone that used to run at Perry (near lake Erie) has run in much worse conditions than this. So, you can run in it. Making it fair for a state meet is another thing. It's one thing to have fun and come in third when you should have won an invite in the middle of the season. It's another when you lose a state championship and have to pay $100 to have your car towed out of a mud pit.

It will be there again. They have a contract. You just can't walk from contracts.[/QUOTE

If it needs to be "big and grand" and "centrally located" and "easy in/easy out" and "full of parking options" then we're stuck with NTR. So pick your poison, I guess.

I'd argue that it's automatically big and grand by virtue of it's championship nature. If it's a crowd of 10,000 but that crowd is confined to grandstands, then is that so great? I'd take a more fan-friendly course, one lined beginning to end (for the most part) with screaming, passionate fans. NTR isn't this. That woods loops is dead silent. The new "far field" loop will be dead silent too.

Not so big and grand.

Splitting it over two days does the following:

1. Gives more options for courses - meaning the fans get on the course while accommodating huge crowds.
2. Gives more options for courses - meaning a backup plan, like oh I don't know, perhaps if it rains a ton - is more feasible.
3. Gives more options for courses - meaning the runners don't run on a pancake flat, boring course in the biggest meet of the year.
4. Gives more options for courses - meaning you could rotate the finals through a variety of finals courses (Centerville one year, ___ another year, etc., and then back to Centerville), if that's what consensus wanted to do. You'd have the option, is what I'm stressing.

And for the record, I'd go to both days. Multiple day passes are available for the basketball and football finals. The same could be done here.
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  #100  
Old 11-02-18, 12:24 PM
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Lancermania Lancermania is offline
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This is one of the drawbacks for NTR, parking on the grass. We need a facility with parking on paved surfaces. At Cedarville, there are 1,000 spots at the site and campus parking elsewhere. I might take a trip there just to see what other nearby parking is there.
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  #101  
Old 11-02-18, 01:01 PM
CatchKokopelli CatchKokopelli is offline
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Splitting dates for races

[QUOTE=oncearunner;7167578]
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I don't like that idea even a little bit. The state meet needs to be big and grand. It should not be split into little meets. Do you want the Regional meets to be bigger than the State meet? Do you want the Tiffin Carnival or Galion or Boardman invites to be the highlight meets of the year? Back in the 80's, we ran 12 races at the state meet. 6 races is doable. There would be a big decrease in attendance. I will go and watch all the races at one location in one day. I would not go watch just D1. If my team is not there, I'm not going to watch D2/D3 either.

You think your way is ideal. I think it's junk. The OHSAA cannot make all of us happy.

I'm thinking of where I usually park. It cannot be good right now. They have had trouble right near the stands in the past with much less rain than this. It can't be good.

There needs to be some money spent on drainage and grading, so that this can't happen. Anyone that used to run at Perry (near lake Erie) has run in much worse conditions than this. So, you can run in it. Making it fair for a state meet is another thing. It's one thing to have fun and come in third when you should have won an invite in the middle of the season. It's another when you lose a state championship and have to pay $100 to have your car towed out of a mud pit.

It will be there again. They have a contract. You just can't walk from contracts.[/QUOTE

If it needs to be "big and grand" and "centrally located" and "easy in/easy out" and "full of parking options" then we're stuck with NTR. So pick your poison, I guess.

I'd argue that it's automatically big and grand by virtue of it's championship nature. If it's a crowd of 10,000 but that crowd is confined to grandstands, then is that so great? I'd take a more fan-friendly course, one lined beginning to end (for the most part) with screaming, passionate fans. NTR isn't this. That woods loops is dead silent. The new "far field" loop will be dead silent too.

Not so big and grand.

Splitting it over two days does the following:

1. Gives more options for courses - meaning the fans get on the course while accommodating huge crowds.
2. Gives more options for courses - meaning a backup plan, like oh I don't know, perhaps if it rains a ton - is more feasible.
3. Gives more options for courses - meaning the runners don't run on a pancake flat, boring course in the biggest meet of the year.
4. Gives more options for courses - meaning you could rotate the finals through a variety of finals courses (Centerville one year, ___ another year, etc., and then back to Centerville), if that's what consensus wanted to do. You'd have the option, is what I'm stressing.

And for the record, I'd go to both days. Multiple day passes are available for the basketball and football finals. The same could be done here.

Other states will split the date for races. Many of my friends that coach in those states wish they followed our date and have tried yearly to get all races on the same day.

We also have the issue of being the sport that OHSAA seems to care the least about. Imagine hosting the meet at multiple sites and having to pay multiple timing companies, site rentals, port-a-lets, etc. We are already one of the lowest grossing events in the OHSAA.. The last thing we would want to do is create a less valuable option.

NTR isn't the best site, but where do we have a better location? People scoff at the NTR bleachers as unnecessary - I would bet most people don't go to a XC meet to just spectate like our basketball and football tournaments. Grandparents and your non-traditional fans of XC are coming and only know to spectate from bleachers. This is convenient and a great way to provide an awesome finish area.

I am certain the meet manager has exhausted all possibilities for the course. So aside from us creating a GoFundMe and building our own Terra Haute I am not sure we have a better option with all that NTR offers. (I would prefer something different, but simply don't have a viable alternative at the time).
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  #102  
Old 11-02-18, 01:45 PM
ringer2 ringer2 is offline
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When a tough decision has to be made people love to gripe and complain and act like the people making the decision are idiots. In truth, the complainers know about 10% of everything that goes into running such a meet and act like they have all the answers. Do you really think Jerry Snodgrass and Dale Gabor woke up this morning morning, looked at their email and said, “Wait, we coulda just moved it to Cedarville?” Of course not. I’m sure they had long discussions over such options. These things are NEVER as simple of forum boards make them out to be.
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  #103  
Old 11-02-18, 01:47 PM
oncearunner oncearunner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancermania View Post
This is one of the drawbacks for NTR, parking on the grass. We need a facility with parking on paved surfaces. At Cedarville, there are 1,000 spots at the site and campus parking elsewhere. I might take a trip there just to see what other nearby parking is there.
What about the Mid-Ohio race facility near Lexington? If you're looking at big ole places to have it as "All in one, all on the same day," then could we take a cue from Michigan (state meet at a NASCAR track) and hold it at Mid-Ohio?

Just a thought. That facility is enormous, and one could easily design a course there - with some rolling hills thrown in for good measure.
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  #104  
Old 11-02-18, 01:48 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Would it be better to run on asphalt or in slippery mud?



Why not move the course to street level and finish in a stadium?
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  #105  
Old 11-02-18, 02:05 PM
cdm.402 cdm.402 is offline
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I’ve always liked the idea of hosting a major meet at the Legend Valley concert venue. It could serve as a decent alternative to NTR, if not a primary OHSAA site. Being just down the road, nobody would have to change hotel arrangements. They have 230+ acres and parking that has served 37,000+ crowds with camping. There are no grandstands, but more opportunities for fans to line the course. After September the place goes unused for months and the owner seems to be interested in community involvement (mostly in reparation to the locals who are disgruntled by the excessive noise). Does anyone know if this has been considered?
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  #106  
Old 11-02-18, 02:55 PM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
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NWDAB posted this picture of the course.

If picture doesn't work here is link.

https://twitter.com/nwdabsports/stat...29234643980291
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  #107  
Old 11-02-18, 03:45 PM
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Lancermania Lancermania is offline
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Thanks for posting this picture, just more evidence why we need to get out of there, the sooner the better.
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  #108  
Old 11-02-18, 04:40 PM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
Would it be better to run on asphalt or in slippery mud?



Why not move the course to street level and finish in a stadium?
Can't believe you'd even ask. This is cross country. Slippery mud is a part of our sport.
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  #109  
Old 11-02-18, 05:08 PM
madman madman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Track Fan View Post


NWDAB posted this picture of the course.

If picture doesn't work here is link.

https://twitter.com/nwdabsports/stat...29234643980291
I get that there is a big puddle at NTR, but the puddle shown isn't even on the course. We've run muddy, water logged courses at some point in nearly every season. I would hope that mud on the course wouldn't be a concern that would ever lead to a postponement.

I completely agree with earlier posters who indicated they thought the danger of hundreds/thousands of cars getting stuck was the reason they postponed the meet.
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  #110  
Old 11-02-18, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madman View Post
I get that there is a big puddle at NTR, but the puddle shown isn't even on the course. We've run muddy, water logged courses at some point in nearly every season. I would hope that mud on the course wouldn't be a concern that would ever lead to a postponement.

I completely agree with earlier posters who indicated they thought the danger of hundreds/thousands of cars getting stuck was the reason they postponed the meet.
Picture is the finish area, chute area and first aid area.
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  #111  
Old 11-02-18, 08:10 PM
madman madman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panott View Post
Picture is the finish area, chute area and first aid area.
It's hardly relevant, but the finish line is on the other side of the white tent (first aid area). In the age of chips, I'm not sure what a chute area is.
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  #112  
Old 11-02-18, 08:30 PM
lane4 lane4 is offline
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FWIW - more rain due Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday next week.

https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l/USOH0403:1:US
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  #113  
Old 11-02-18, 08:33 PM
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So 90% chance of rain in Columbus area on Tues and 60% chance of rain on Fri. Sat the high is calling for 42, low of 28. I really hope they are looking into their options.
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  #114  
Old 11-02-18, 10:05 PM
billcarson billcarson is offline
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One would hope there is a back-up plan to move it, and
it would be nice to know if this is the case. By Thursday the course should be thoroughly inspected and a decision made. If it's as bad or worse and they move it, we should already be prepared to go to Galion or Tiffin. These are large meet venues, that have lots of experience parking busses, some of the course is roped off, they are District and Regional sites. They handle water pretty well(Galion maybe better). No grandstand, but the crowds very likely would be smaller. Move the starting times back an hour to allow for schools to travel Saturday morning.

Nothing will be perfect, but I would like to hear a back up plan
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  #115  
Old 11-03-18, 02:35 AM
gatornation gatornation is offline
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I do not believe one of the options can include pushing the time back an hour, they could be running in the dark. 3pm becomes 4pm which is actually the old 5pm with the time change tomorrow.
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  #116  
Old 11-03-18, 09:10 AM
gatornation gatornation is offline
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SO, if a kid who qualified for State wanted to stay shape for next week, they could run a road race this weekend as long as it was all on pavement, CORRECT??
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  #117  
Old 11-03-18, 03:03 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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Why would you want a kid to run a road race to "stay in shape"? Why couldn't they have some solid training...and rest.
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  #118  
Old 11-03-18, 03:55 PM
gatornation gatornation is offline
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I am under the belief that kids should race once a week, if not twice, or they become stale and race poorly after a break. Why not get out and run fast on the road at this point in the year. They surely wont be running fast next Saturday at NTR.
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  #119  
Old 11-03-18, 04:54 PM
starcatcher8 starcatcher8 is offline
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I don't agree with gatornation. Are you a coach? How many teams/individuals have you had qualify for the state meet?
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  #120  
Old 11-03-18, 06:22 PM
gatornation gatornation is offline
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Not going to post my resume, yes I coach and yes I have coached at the State Meet. Twice a week may be an exaggeration, even though when I began coaching it was required of us in our league if you chose to race on Saturday. I just believe there will be some who run flat next week because they did not race this weekend.
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