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  #301  
Old 07-12-17, 11:46 AM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Pretty sure it was Russian adoption not abortion laws lol.
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  #302  
Old 07-12-17, 11:55 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
There's delusional then there's
Do you read any history or check out current affairs? Because how could you possibly dispute that the Russian economy isn't a whole lot stronger when oil is at $100 per barrel then when it's at $50 per barrel? This one FACT alone should convince anyone with even half a brain that Putin would not want Trump to beat Hillary.

Trump as POTUS results in policies that keep oil at around $50 per barrel or less. Trump was very public in telling everyone how he would handle energy during the campaign.

Hillary as POTUS results in policies that keep oil at or above $100 per barrel.

Gee who do you think Putin prefers as POTUS?

Now don't get me going on how Putin & Russia must have viewed Trump's promises to rebuild the American military and revitalize the USA's strategic nuclear arsenal. Because according to your thinking Putin would rather deal with Trump's military buildup than subject his diplomats to the embarrassing spectacle of pushing another giant fake cardboard red button prop as part of a grand diplomatic effort. Talk about delusional!
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  #303  
Old 07-12-17, 11:56 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Pretty sure it was Russian adoption not abortion laws lol.
Gotcha!
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  #304  
Old 07-12-17, 11:58 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
As both the incumbent AND the head of a new party.

This has been my hope since mid-October.
I'm with you here Cabe. I suspect as much as 2/3 of the elected republican party members would tag along to. You would also see substantial democrat defections. Of course it won't happen but it's always nice to dream.
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  #305  
Old 07-12-17, 11:58 AM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Gotcha!

I just thought it was funny lotr, quit being so sensitive.
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  #306  
Old 07-12-17, 12:06 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
This is a very generous way of putting it. He was contacted by someone claiming they represented "the Russian government's ongoing support for Mr. Trump."



Lots of people given the context?



All the dumber they didn't disclose it, and then continued to lie about the details of the meeting. As usual, the cover-up may be worse that the 'crime."

The worst case scenario of this whole thing is that an inexperienced Donald Trump Jr, who a year earlier was probably wondering why his father was wasting his time running for POTUS, blundered. And IMO it doesn't even rise to that level.

What I do find interesting though is the passive aggressive reaction of so many "principled" republicans. Falling all over each other to make a mountain out of a mole hill while virtue signaling everyone in sight that conservatives are better than this. It's sad how you guys never got over that against all your predictions of doom Trump won the election and the GOP emerged stronger than its ever been.
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  #307  
Old 07-12-17, 12:13 PM
zeeman zeeman is offline
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NYT just posted that Baron's real name is Boris. This just keeps getting better
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  #308  
Old 07-12-17, 12:13 PM
domi domi is offline
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The GOP sure doesn't seem to be getting much done for being as strong as they have ever been.

Just saying...
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  #309  
Old 07-12-17, 12:36 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Or Trump connecting Obama to Kenya? Or Cruz to JFK? Or millions of voters to fraud? Or thousands of muslims cheering? Or Obama to wire tapping? Or releasing his taxes after the election? But I get your drift. Alex Jones is a boob.
Well that went over your head. I know Alex Jones is a performance artist. I was putting CNN on his level since they are the Fake News Network now.
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  #310  
Old 07-12-17, 12:41 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
The worst case scenario of this whole thing is that an inexperienced Donald Trump Jr, who a year earlier was probably wondering why his father was wasting his time running for POTUS, blundered. And IMO it doesn't even rise to that level.
You can say what you will. You and I both know if Hillary was President and the exact same thing was revealed about Chelsea, you'd have a very different reaction. I'm sure you'll deny this, or write a novel about why your bias is okay in this instance, but we know it's true.

Quote:
What I do find interesting though is the passive aggressive reaction of so many "principled" republicans. Falling all over each other to make a mountain out of a mole hill while virtue signaling everyone in sight that conservatives are better than this. It's sad how you guys never got over that against all your predictions of doom Trump won the election and the GOP emerged stronger than its ever been.
You're projecting a label and backstory on to those who disagree with you, par for the course.

I mostly like what Trump has done. But this shows some highly questionable judgement from those around him. First in even accepting the meeting given the line about it being a Russian government effort, second in not disclosing the email, and third in lying about it. I would hope, and believe, the vast majority of conservatives, including the President, are better than that.
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  #311  
Old 07-12-17, 02:15 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
You can say what you will. You and I both know if Hillary was President and the exact same thing was revealed about Chelsea, you'd have a very different reaction.
Not Chelsea, but operatives of the Clinton campaign did meet with representatives of Ukraine who claimed they had damaging information on Trump.

Where's the outrage and claims of Treason?
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  #312  
Old 07-12-17, 02:20 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
Not Chelsea, but operatives of the Clinton campaign did meet with representatives of Ukraine who claimed they had damaging information on Trump.

Where's the outrage and claims of Treason?
Ben Shapiro covered this sort of behavior^^^ pretty well in his column today: http://www.dailywire.com/news/18511/...ds-ben-shapiro
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  #313  
Old 07-12-17, 02:26 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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It's legitimate to question the outrage over this when it was non-existent concerning Hillary possibly having been aided by a foreign government. Pointing out hypocrisy is perfectly acceptable. What isn't OK is saying "since Hillary's campaign did it, Trump's campaign should get a free pass." I think that's the sort of whataboutery Shapiro is talking about.
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  #314  
Old 07-12-17, 02:31 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
Pointing out hypocrisy is perfectly acceptable. What isn't OK is saying "since Hillary's campaign did it, Trump's campaign should get a free pass." I think that's the sort of whataboutery Shapiro is talking about.
Correct. There are times when whataboutism is justified, to point out leftist double standards is one. It is not justified if your only goal is to reverse engineer an excuse for your own bad behavior.
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  #315  
Old 07-12-17, 03:13 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Ukraine is an ally, pro-democratic, did not attack us, and we have no sanctions against them. And they are defending against pro-Russian pro-Putin anti-EU and NATO policies coming from Trump, so they do have a stake in their own survival. Manafort involved himself in the pro-Russia vs. Ukraine fight long before the campaign. That's on him, and the guy who hired him to run his campaign.

Other than that I'd agree foreign countries should not meddle in US elections, be it Ukraine, Germany, France, Britain, or Canada, but especially hostile ones - that's a lot different.
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  #316  
Old 07-12-17, 03:26 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Yeah, we called that apologetics.
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  #317  
Old 07-12-17, 03:34 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
You can say what you will. You and I both know if Hillary was President and the exact same thing was revealed about Chelsea, you'd have a very different reaction. I'm sure you'll deny this, or write a novel about why your bias is okay in this instance, but we know it's true.



You're projecting a label and backstory on to those who disagree with you, par for the course.

I mostly like what Trump has done. But this shows some highly questionable judgement from those around him. First in even accepting the meeting given the line about it being a Russian government effort, second in not disclosing the email, and third in lying about it. I would hope, and believe, the vast majority of conservatives, including the President, are better than that.
Strange comparison NEO saying that if Hillary were POTUS I would react to Chelsea taking the meeting with the Russian babe the same way you're reacting to Don Jr taking the meeting. But you're supposedly a "conservative" and I find it a bit odd that you're getting so upset over this nothing burger.
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  #318  
Old 07-12-17, 03:42 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Strange comparison NEO saying that if Hillary were POTUS I would react to Chelsea taking the meeting with the Russian babe the same way you're reacting to Don Jr taking the meeting. But you're supposedly a "conservative"
Where did I say you'd have the same reaction I did? I think I said you'd have a very different reaction. Which we all know is true. Not sure how pointing out the obvious makes me not a conservative either? But I know that's your thing.

Quote:
and I find it a bit odd that you're getting so upset over this nothing burger.
Well I suppose we disagree on whether this is a "nothing burger." I think we've established you and I have radically different views on whether meeting with an adversarial foreign government with the promise of dirt on an opponent, not disclosing it, and lying about it is problematic.

I wouldn't say I'm getting "so upset" about it though. Rather I think this was a dumb move and I agree with most of the level-headed criticisms I've read of it.

It's certainly not treason and anyone calling it so is a lunatic. It's not even a crime. But based on the content of the emails, it sure feels like Don Jr was willing to collude with the Russian government to win the election if the opportunity had been there. And I don't think saying that's not good makes me or anyone else saying so a "fake conservative."
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  #319  
Old 07-12-17, 03:46 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Ukraine is an ally, pro-democratic, did not attack us, and we have no sanctions against them. And they are defending against pro-Russian pro-Putin anti-EU and NATO policies coming from Trump, so they do have a stake in their own survival. Manafort involved himself in the pro-Russia vs. Ukraine fight long before the campaign. That's on him, and the guy who hired him to run his campaign.

Other than that I'd agree foreign countries should not meddle in US elections, be it Ukraine, Germany, France, Britain, or Canada, but especially hostile ones - that's a lot different.
Wow, when did Russia attack us? Was it as big as Pearl Harbor?

I know that people hate hearing about "spheres of influence" and such but the Ukraine is in the Russian sphere and when you screw around with their elections like we did to install a pro western government in Kiev you're playing with fire. Remember all the talk about adding the Ukraine to NATO? Talk about waving a red flag in the face of Russia & Putin.

I wish the world was one big hug fest singing Kumbaya but it isn't. Look at history and the Ukraine is the cultural birthplace of Mother Russia. It was a part of the Russian Empire and then the Soviet Union for centuries. The Russians almost certainly have reabsorbing the Ukraine back into their empire as a primary long term strategic goal.

It seems to me that in dealing with Russia there are three simple principals to follow:

* Stay out of their near abroad

* Find areas of common ground where we can cooperate and work together.

* Slap them down hard if they encroach on our near abroad or mess with our long-term allies
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  #320  
Old 07-12-17, 03:57 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Where did I say you'd have the same reaction I did? I think I said you'd have a very different reaction. Which we all know is true. Not sure how pointing out the obvious makes me not a conservative either? But I know that's your thing.



Well I suppose we disagree on whether this is a "nothing burger." I think we've established you and I have radically different views on whether meeting with an adversarial foreign government with the promise of dirt on an opponent, not disclosing it, and lying about it is problematic.

I wouldn't say I'm getting "so upset" about it though. Rather I think this was a dumb move and I agree with most of the level-headed criticisms I've read of it.

It's certainly not treason and anyone calling it so is a lunatic. It's not even a crime. But based on the content of the emails, it sure feels like Don Jr was willing to collude with the Russian government to win the election if the opportunity had been there. And I don't think saying that's not good makes me or anyone else saying so a "fake conservative."
There you go again with the passive aggression! You claim that what Don Jr did isn't "treason" (how gracious of you) and isn't a "crime" BUT then in the same post you're sure that Don Jr was willing to COLLUDE with the Russians to win the election. So what was Don Jr willing to trade with Putin to get some of those Hillary emails? Was it the Ukraine or the Baltic States? Maybe it was the rest of our Uranium.
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  #321  
Old 07-12-17, 04:03 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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The USA government is the biggest hacker in the world and its not even close. Not counting USA hacking for freedom its China, USA, and then Russia. Anyone that believes Russia got Trump in the white house is stupid. My guess is Russia would want Hillary since she's a puppet
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  #322  
Old 07-12-17, 04:10 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
There you go again with the passive aggression!
I mean you're the one who has a habit of doing the "conservative" passive aggressive thing when you disagree with someone. Would you like me to not respond to it?

Quote:
You claim that what Don Jr did isn't "treason" (how gracious of you) and isn't a "crime" BUT then in the same post you're sure that Don Jr was willing to COLLUDE with the Russians to win the election.
Well I didn't say I was sure, I said based on the context of the emails, it feels like it. Which is the case. No other real way to read them.

Collusion isn't a crime though.

Quote:
So what was Don Jr willing to trade with Putin to get some of those Hillary emails? Was it th e Ukraine or the Baltic States?
Where did I say he was? I said earlier in the thread I don't believe they would have ever traded favorable treatment in exchange for dirt on Hillary. But I think it's reasonable to say we don't want our political leaders and their teams accepting "gifts", especially in secret, from someone purporting to represent the interest of an adversarial nation's desire to get your father elected.

I'd chalk it up to him being a political amateur(not an insult, he's just inexperienced in this realm) and not thinking through that this may not be a good idea. Not disclosing it and then lying about it when it became clear this was going to come out certainly compounded the appearance of impropriety.
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  #323  
Old 07-12-17, 04:29 PM
BlueJayFan BlueJayFan is offline
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Originally Posted by Raider6309 View Post
The USA government is the biggest hacker in the world and its not even close. Not counting USA hacking for freedom its China, USA, and then Russia. Anyone that believes Russia got Trump in the white house is stupid. My guess is Russia would want Hillary since she's a puppet
"The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary Clinton and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to [Donald Trump].

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support of Mr. Trump - helped along by Alas and Emin."

Yeah they definitely wanted Hillary to win ****ing moron
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  #324  
Old 07-12-17, 05:01 PM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Anyone hellbent on condemning Trump for colluding with Russia has failed to answer the question: Why in God's Green Earth would Putin prefer Trump over Clinton, on policy alone? Maybe Putin's just a misogynist (he's a white, cis-male, narrative fits) and doesn't want to see any woman in power across the globe? Far more plausible a situation than wanting the guy willing, able and proven to authorize strikes against his allies, or wanting the guy who wants to bolster the military power of the greatest fighting force on the face of the Earth, or wanting the guy who still believes the United States should be THE preeminent world power; it just doesn't add up.

As previously stated, Clinton would have been a much better solution for Putin's personal mission to have Russia overtake the U.S. in any capacity.
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  #325  
Old 07-12-17, 05:01 PM
Gulliotine Gulliotine is online now
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Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
Yeah they definitely wanted Hillary to win ****ing moron
Dude, pace yourself. You've got 7 1/2 years to go.
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  #326  
Old 07-12-17, 05:48 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by zeeman View Post
Isn't "Ivanka" a Russian name?
As was her mother's, Ivana.
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  #327  
Old 07-12-17, 06:09 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Correct. There are times when whataboutism is justified, to point out leftist double standards is one. It is not justified if your only goal is to reverse engineer an excuse for your own bad behavior.
Very true, but I found this very entertaining just the same - http://www.dailywire.com/news/18519/...-aaron-bandler

from your Shapiro link


The whole idea of focusing moral outrage on Trump Jr fielding Russian offers of info supporting the fact that Hildabeast is a crook but ignoring the FACT that Hildabeast is a crook is surreal to me. Our mainstream media is just a sorry sack of crap. I'm disgusted.

The fact that this nonsense rallies the BJays of the world is truly sad.
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  #328  
Old 07-12-17, 06:14 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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As usual, a good straight forward take from Trey Gowdy

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...-russia-240432
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  #329  
Old 07-12-17, 06:31 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Gowdy wants to get busy, and I'm sure he's frustrated, but ultimately, a nothing-burger with cheese is still a nothing-burger. Gowdy is always going to be an "I coulda done it better" kind of guy,and that is part of how he assures his constituency that he is toting the water for them.

Trump has a lot of staff tasked to other issues. I think he likes the petty distraction. Maybe it's like in Animal House when the Stork hi-jacked the marching band down the dead-end ? The media (the band) is out of the way while the Deathmobile is lining up the grandstand to take it out.
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  #330  
Old 07-12-17, 07:23 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
Anyone hellbent on condemning Trump for colluding with Russia has failed to answer the question: Why in God's Green Earth would Putin prefer Trump over Clinton, on policy alone? Maybe Putin's just a misogynist (he's a white, cis-male, narrative fits) and doesn't want to see any woman in power across the globe? Far more plausible a situation than wanting the guy willing, able and proven to authorize strikes against his allies, or wanting the guy who wants to bolster the military power of the greatest fighting force on the face of the Earth, or wanting the guy who still believes the United States should be THE preeminent world power; it just doesn't add up.

As previously stated, Clinton would have been a much better solution for Putin's personal mission to have Russia overtake the U.S. in any capacity.
Exactly right JediMaster! It boggles the mind that these people have bought into the insane belief that Putin preferred Trump over Hillary given that all the evidence demonstrates that Hillary would be a much better POTUS from any Russian economic & security standpoint.

It's funny that these folks can't see that motivation is the key element here. Putin has plenty of motivation to want Hillary as POTUS and almost no motivation to have Trump in that office. It's funny how these people don't think for a second about what any law enforcement agency does when trying to solve a crime - they look for what MOTIVATED the criminal. Along with physical & eyewitness evidence this is the most critical aspect of any investigation. Understanding what motivated the criminal enables the investigator to target the right suspects. The lack of motive or the existence of counter motive enables the law to rule out suspects. Anyway you slice it, Putin & Russia had all the motive in the world to want Hillary as POTUS.

BTW, your joke that maybe Putin is a "misogynist" is actually probably true and offers a powerful motive for him to want Hillary to lead the USA and not Trump. Russia is a classic patriarchy that also values the concept of a strong (male) leader. The hard men in the Kremlin would look at Trump with some concern because they would see him as potentially being a "strong leader" given his appeals to Nationalism and his desire to strengthen America's military and strategic economic power (energy). They would view Hillary as "soft" and "pliable" and easy to manipulate and would see her as a much less threatening leader than Trump. And given their experience with her juvenile and amateurish "reset button" gimmick they would be salivating to have to face a USA led by Hillary.
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