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  #181  
Old 03-07-18, 11:31 AM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thereckoning View Post
No problem with this opinion. If the coaches and system is in place, you have a valid point. But, again, the MAC is the exception to the rule. Pee-wee football and the knowledge kids gain from it is something I believe is also invaluable. My opinion. Your knowledge can only grow from the first day you are taught, whether it be 7th grade or 3rd grade. And kids get entrenched in it in many of the long standing and dominant programs in the nation from elementary school on.

Regardless, good talk! I can respect not playing pee-wee. It is a tough enough game to put your body through for 6 years, let alone 8-10 (and beyond).

Good luck to PW on the coaching search. For their sake, and having pee-wee, I hope the coach starts building the program from the bottom up.
Appreciate the banter, back and forth, with out any name calling, unusual for Yappi. Hopefully PW can get their program turned around.
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  #182  
Old 03-07-18, 12:36 PM
big medicine big medicine is offline
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Originally Posted by big medicine View Post
It would be interesting to see the % of high school boys playing football per each school in the MAC and see if there is any noticeable difference between the midget playing schools and the rest.

Blue Jay Fan responce
That will tell you nothing. There are only two teams, one very successful and one not. Winning has more to do with numbers playing than anything else.


Maybe not, but it would still be interesting to see the numbers over say a 25 year period for all the schools as fortunes have changed over the years. See how the % of participation changed in relation to success and if pee wee programs could be identified as a factor.

Additional question for DSJ or Parkway posters, well maybe anyone with a pee wee program state wide. For my own curiosity, what % of your high school football players came up all the way through the pee wee program, or do some start playing later. Best ques %.

Last edited by big medicine; 03-07-18 at 12:48 PM.
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  #183  
Old 03-07-18, 06:08 PM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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Any idea how many people applied for the Parkway Job? Deadline is Friday.
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  #184  
Old 03-07-18, 08:48 PM
Damage450 Damage450 is offline
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As someone on the other side of the state, how many kids do MAC schools usually have coming out for 7th or 8th grade football? Are they two separate teams or combined?

Thanks.
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  #185  
Old 03-07-18, 08:59 PM
Weiskittle Weiskittle is offline
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I know on average Anna will have 25 a grade. So normally around 50 in JH.

I remember one year we had around 70 kids playing JH

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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  #186  
Old 03-07-18, 09:02 PM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damage450 View Post
As someone on the other side of the state, how many kids do MAC schools usually have coming out for 7th or 8th grade football? Are they two separate teams or combined?

Thanks.
Separate. Our 7th and 8th grades average usually in the 30's each so combined about 60. When I was a 7th grader we had I think 42 players on just the 7th grade. We had 45 boys in our whole grade.

Last edited by StateChampion2012; 03-07-18 at 09:15 PM.
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  #187  
Old 03-07-18, 10:48 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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DSJ had 31 in junior high this year. Two teams but I think we only had maybe nine 7th graders so a few 8th graders played down to fill out the team. There were 5-6 7th graders who played midget football this year who will play 8th grade next year. I don't know the jr. high enrollment but I'm guessing those 31 are a pretty large percentage of boys in those grades.

% of varsity football players who came through the Delphos midget football system? I'm guessing 80-90%.

% of boys in the school playing football? Delphos has had midget football since around 1960 or before. Consistent success at DSJ didn't start until 1988. Rosters percentage since 1988 have been exponentially larger than those before 1988. We dressed 55 in 1981 (HS enrollment around 400) and 50 in 2017 (HS enrollment around 200). We dressed around 110 in the late '90's/early 2000's. Everyone wants to be part of a winner.
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  #188  
Old 03-08-18, 11:05 AM
thereckoning thereckoning is offline
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Pop Warner Football began in 1929. It enlisted young teens to play football and stay out of trouble. By the 1950s, it began "midget" football. Many small towns in the nation also adopted midget or peewee football from that time on (some were pop warner). Ohio was a large hotbed for midget style football then and the tradition continues today.

Most towns that you see have youth football continue on from peewee to HS at a 80%-90% clip (pure educated guess as asked). Very few get "burnt out" on playing. Some quit playing but lets face it. That happens in 7th, 8th, etc. as well. No matter when you start it, as with any sport, the numbers dwindle from Jr High to High School.

If I am reading correctly, MAC schools are pumping out 60-70 Jr High players but only rostering 60-70 players in HS. This tends to give me the notion that half of all players that go out in Jr High are still around in HS. Therefore, one could make the argument that it is better to weed out at the elementary level than the Jr High/HS level.

While the MAC's recent success cannot be denied, one can point to Blue Jay Fan as his school contributed to the start and continuation of that success on a high level. Coldwater, Versailles, ML, SH, and Minster (maybe others I'm missing) have also had success, but one can also ask....how many of these kids played at the peewee level either in pads or flag football? How many went to Celina to play peewee? How many went to Lima or Wapak? Regardless of thoughts on peewee or midget in general, isn't there more kids quitting at MAC schools (take StateChamp's numbers) that don't have peewee than kids that are quitting at MAC schools that have peewee (take Blue Jay Fan's numbers) in and after Jr High?

If more kids are quitting when starting later, then the major thing holding these teams together at a high level is good genetics, great coaching, and a great system. If any of these break, the value of midget football then becomes priceless for the continuation of a program. Food for thought.
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  #189  
Old 03-08-18, 12:28 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thereckoning View Post
Pop Warner Football began in 1929. It enlisted young teens to play football and stay out of trouble. By the 1950s, it began "midget" football. Many small towns in the nation also adopted midget or peewee football from that time on (some were pop warner). Ohio was a large hotbed for midget style football then and the tradition continues today.

Most towns that you see have youth football continue on from peewee to HS at a 80%-90% clip (pure educated guess as asked). Very few get "burnt out" on playing. Some quit playing but lets face it. That happens in 7th, 8th, etc. as well. No matter when you start it, as with any sport, the numbers dwindle from Jr High to High School.

If I am reading correctly, MAC schools are pumping out 60-70 Jr High players but only rostering 60-70 players in HS. This tends to give me the notion that half of all players that go out in Jr High are still around in HS. Therefore, one could make the argument that it is better to weed out at the elementary level than the Jr High/HS level.

While the MAC's recent success cannot be denied, one can point to Blue Jay Fan as his school contributed to the start and continuation of that success on a high level. Coldwater, Versailles, ML, SH, and Minster (maybe others I'm missing) have also had success, but one can also ask....how many of these kids played at the peewee level either in pads or flag football? How many went to Celina to play peewee? How many went to Lima or Wapak? Regardless of thoughts on peewee or midget in general, isn't there more kids quitting at MAC schools (take StateChamp's numbers) that don't have peewee than kids that are quitting at MAC schools that have peewee (take Blue Jay Fan's numbers) in and after Jr High?

If more kids are quitting when starting later, then the major thing holding these teams together at a high level is good genetics, great coaching, and a great system. If any of these break, the value of midget football then becomes priceless for the continuation of a program. Food for thought.
C' on man, Marion Local, Coldwater, Anna usually have lot more players on their roster than their non league opposition. ML had a much bigger roster than Patrick Henry, CJ, Spencerville, only Liberty Benton and Kirtland had similar roster size to ML. ML has a much bigger roster than Parkway or DSJ both who have pee - wee football. Plus we consistently here from other posters how fewer and fewer kids are playing football at the H.S. level that has not happened at most MAC schools.
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  #190  
Old 03-08-18, 12:31 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Once again why is it that MAC schools are so much more fundamentally sound than programs that have pee-wee football ?
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  #191  
Old 03-08-18, 01:02 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
C' on man, Marion Local, Coldwater, Anna usually have lot more players on their roster than their non league opposition. ML had a much bigger roster than Patrick Henry, CJ, Spencerville, only Liberty Benton and Kirtland had similar roster size to ML. ML has a much bigger roster than Parkway or DSJ both who have pee - wee football. Plus we consistently here from other posters how fewer and fewer kids are playing football at the H.S. level that has not happened at most MAC schools.
ML has a bigger roster than DSJ now because ML high school is almost 50% bigger than DSJ is now. It has absolutely nothing to do with midget football. And Delphos had four midget football teams and DSJ had 110 kids on the roster in the late '90's. ML's roster is bigger than Parkway's because ML has won nine state titles and Parkway usually only wins 1-3 games a year. For comparison, how big is ML's girls cross country roster compared to Minster's? It's all about winning!
How big was ML's roster before Goodwin and nine state titles? Again, if you win, everybody wants to be a part of it.
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  #192  
Old 03-08-18, 01:08 PM
OCLWarrior OCLWarrior is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
C' on man, Marion Local, Coldwater, Anna usually have lot more players on their roster than their non league opposition. ML had a much bigger roster than Patrick Henry, CJ, Spencerville, only Liberty Benton and Kirtland had similar roster size to ML. ML has a much bigger roster than Parkway or DSJ both who have pee - wee football. Plus we consistently here from other posters how fewer and fewer kids are playing football at the H.S. level that has not happened at most MAC schools.
That is not the point he was trying to make. If all the junior high kids stuck with football, you would have high school rosters over hundred players. You lost about half your potential players between junior high and high school. The point he was trying to make that just as many pee wee kids drop out by the time they reach high school. You are going to make a judgement on pee wee football just on two schools for the whole state of Ohio? Some of you complain that kids get run off in pee wee, well, it looks like your coaches are running them off in junior high and high school.
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  #193  
Old 03-08-18, 01:11 PM
OCLWarrior OCLWarrior is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
Once again why is it that MAC schools are so much more fundamentally sound than programs that have pee-wee football ?
Coaching and more bigger kids.
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  #194  
Old 03-08-18, 01:35 PM
thereckoning thereckoning is offline
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Originally Posted by OCLWarrior View Post
That is not the point he was trying to make. If all the junior high kids stuck with football, you would have high school rosters over hundred players. You lost about half your potential players between junior high and high school. The point he was trying to make that just as many pee wee kids drop out by the time they reach high school. You are going to make a judgement on pee wee football just on two schools for the whole state of Ohio? Some of you complain that kids get run off in pee wee, well, it looks like your coaches are running them off in junior high and high school.
Exactly. Smaller schools are still fielding teams. Even if these schools don't eat and breath football, there are still teams at these schools because kids are learning it from a young age.

And if you look at the numbers, the school that has midget football (DSJ) has had some of the highest levels of success over the years in the MAC. Parkway could follow suit with the proper coaching from the bottom up.

But, as you so eloquently pointed out, and I was trying to portray, over 50% of the kids that come out for football at MAC schools (without peewee) in Jr High are quitting. Why is that? Is it because the learning curve is drastically reduced because these kids don't learn football until they are teens? Is it because kids don't want to grind every morning in the summer to catch up and get ahead? Are these kids run off? Are these kids not good enough?

I'm not sure. What I do recognize is that midget football has been entrench in and a large tradition in Ohio schools that have been powerhouses for decades. Not two decades. Multiple decades.

Again. I understand the thought process. Some don't want youth hurt. The system is working. I get it. However, the success rate at which these kids are moving on from youth to Jr. High to High School seems to be much larger with peewee than without.
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  #195  
Old 03-08-18, 01:54 PM
OCLWarrior OCLWarrior is offline
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Originally Posted by thereckoning View Post
Exactly. Smaller schools are still fielding teams. Even if these schools don't eat and breath football, there are still teams at these schools because kids are learning it from a young age.

And if you look at the numbers, the school that has midget football (DSJ) has had some of the highest levels of success over the years in the MAC. Parkway could follow suit with the proper coaching from the bottom up.

But, as you so eloquently pointed out, and I was trying to portray, over 50% of the kids that come out for football at MAC schools (without peewee) in Jr High are quitting. Why is that? Is it because the learning curve is drastically reduced because these kids don't learn football until they are teens? Is it because kids don't want to grind every morning in the summer to catch up and get ahead? Are these kids run off? Are these kids not good enough?

I'm not sure. What I do recognize is that midget football has been entrench in and a large tradition in Ohio schools that have been powerhouses for decades. Not two decades. Multiple decades.

Again. I understand the thought process. Some don't want youth hurt. The system is working. I get it. However, the success rate at which these kids are moving on from youth to Jr. High to High School seems to be much larger with peewee than without.
I think alot of these kids in junior high dream of playing for Ohio State or the NFL but when it comes working hard and dedicating yourself to play, they don't want to put forth the effort. The smaller kids unless they are fast will not play as much or sit the bench. Winning high school teams bring alot hopeful players as recruit. No one wants to play for a loser. It's a catch-22 for Parkway, unless they start winning they will not have more players. If any of the other schools in the MAC were in the position that Parkway is in, they would be having the same problems.
Of the 60-70 players, how many see the field? 40-50 tops and that may be generous considering alot of players play both offense and defense. The rest are happy to join the bandwagon in the playoffs or state.
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  #196  
Old 03-08-18, 02:12 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by OCLWarrior View Post
Coaching and more bigger kids.
Coaching I agree with, bigger kids no. Coldwater usually in the play-offs is smaller size wise than their opposition.
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  #197  
Old 03-08-18, 02:22 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
ML has a bigger roster than DSJ now because ML high school is almost 50% bigger than DSJ is now. It has absolutely nothing to do with midget football. And Delphos had four midget football teams and DSJ had 110 kids on the roster in the late '90's. ML's roster is bigger than Parkway's because ML has won nine state titles and Parkway usually only wins 1-3 games a year. For comparison, how big is ML's girls cross country roster compared to Minster's? It's all about winning!
How big was ML's roster before Goodwin and nine state titles? Again, if you win, everybody wants to be a part of it.
Read carefully once again I am saying midget football has no bearing on roster sizes, another poster implied that more players stick with the program because of pee-wee football than those with out pee - wee football, I highly doubt that. By the way ML had 19 girls on their cross country team this year, not sure what Minster had. ML before Goodwin probably had 70 to 80 kids on their roster, the Flyers never have had a problem for the most part with numbers. DSJ has 80 boys enrolled in H.S. , ML 112 that is 28% difference using OHSAA nos. about the same difference between Coldwater and ML.

Last edited by Stirred not Shaken; 03-08-18 at 02:33 PM.
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  #198  
Old 03-08-18, 02:23 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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About numbers.......
Sure only so many can play but the more that go out, the better chance the kids who can contribute are on the squad and also a better chance in competition at positions and very important.......solid scout teams in practice. That cannot be overlooked.

We always look at the top players, but in HS football there are more unsung hero's who whosebiggest contribution may be a few plays a game, or in practice as a solid player on a scout team.

All other things equal, I'll take the bigger roster
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  #199  
Old 03-08-18, 02:46 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by OCLWarrior View Post
That is not the point he was trying to make. If all the junior high kids stuck with football, you would have high school rosters over hundred players. You lost about half your potential players between junior high and high school. The point he was trying to make that just as many pee wee kids drop out by the time they reach high school. You are going to make a judgement on pee wee football just on two schools for the whole state of Ohio? Some of you complain that kids get run off in pee wee, well, it looks like your coaches are running them off in junior high and high school.
I would say the drop out rate is the same whether you have pee wee football or not. My argument is pee wee football is not necessary at all for the development of a football program. All it is something for parents to claim my kid is the pee wee champion of Lima or whatever town. As I stated before the parents I work with talk more about pee wee football than they do about their H.S. teams maybe because their H.S. teams suck so much. But how can that be they have pee wee football ?
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  #200  
Old 03-08-18, 03:04 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
I would say the drop out rate is the same whether you have pee wee football or not. My argument is pee wee football is not necessary at all for the development of a football program. All it is something for parents to claim my kid is the pee wee champion of Lima or whatever town. As I stated before the parents I work with talk more about pee wee football than they do about their H.S. teams maybe because their H.S. teams suck so much. But how can that be they have pee wee football ?
Maybe it's because their kid plays pee wee and not High School.
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  #201  
Old 03-08-18, 03:18 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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The enrollment numbers from the OHSAA are for only three grades and are from 2016. Using those numbers, DSJ at 81 would extrapolate out to 108 for four grades. ML would be 149. That's 40% more boys at ML. Not 50% but not insignificant.
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  #202  
Old 03-08-18, 03:28 PM
OCLWarrior OCLWarrior is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
I would say the drop out rate is the same whether you have pee wee football or not. My argument is pee wee football is not necessary at all for the development of a football program. All it is something for parents to claim my kid is the pee wee champion of Lima or whatever town. As I stated before the parents I work with talk more about pee wee football than they do about their H.S. teams maybe because their H.S. teams suck so much. But how can that be they have pee wee football ?
Maybe those parents don't have high school kids? You don't necessarily need a high school team to play pee wee. Some are connected to a community rec. league. If the parents have the $$$, you can start one. You must work with a boastful bunch. It would be like proclaiming your kid was the t-ball champ.
I not saying it is necessary, but it is not detriment to high school ball and if you can do with out it, more power to you.
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  #203  
Old 03-08-18, 03:34 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by OCLWarrior View Post
I not saying it is necessary, but it is not detriment to high school ball and if you can do with out it, more power to you.
That I will agree with, but back to Parkway their lack of success has nothing to do with pee wee football, it has to do with a lack of a good coach at the H.S. level.
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  #204  
Old 03-08-18, 04:45 PM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
About numbers.......
Sure only so many can play but the more that go out, the better chance the kids who can contribute are on the squad and also a better chance in competition at positions and very important.......solid scout teams in practice. That cannot be overlooked.

We always look at the top players, but in HS football there are more unsung hero's who whosebiggest contribution may be a few plays a game, or in practice as a solid player on a scout team.

All other things equal, I'll take the bigger roster
That was my role.
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  #205  
Old 03-08-18, 04:52 PM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
ML has a bigger roster than DSJ now because ML high school is almost 50% bigger than DSJ is now. It has absolutely nothing to do with midget football. And Delphos had four midget football teams and DSJ had 110 kids on the roster in the late '90's. ML's roster is bigger than Parkway's because ML has won nine state titles and Parkway usually only wins 1-3 games a year. For comparison, how big is ML's girls cross country roster compared to Minster's? It's all about winning!
How big was ML's roster before Goodwin and nine state titles? Again, if you win, everybody wants to be a part of it.
How many midget teams does Delphos have now? As to why so many quit, some go run Cross Country in 8th grade and beyond and some go play golf. We don't have JH golf to my knowledge so some play golf in HS. Some also quit and go get jobs. Not a lot of people talk about that. That's how we went from 42 as 7th graders to 23 as seniors.
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  #206  
Old 03-08-18, 05:19 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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Delphos has four midget football teams. I believe there is still a draft and coaches from each team pick their players in rotation. Teams are split between kids from DSJ and DJ. Their league, the Tri County League, used to include Wapak, St. Marys, Elida, etc... Those teams have left to, I think, form a WBL league. The TCL includes the four Delphos teams, two Spencerville teams, Uniopolis, Shelby County and Lima Buckeyes. The Delphos Mohawks won this year's title under coach KC Looser who's been head coach since 1997. The Delphos Vikings head coach and assistant, both coaching over 20 years, retired after this past season. Many long term, experienced, high quality coaches over the years.
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  #207  
Old 03-08-18, 08:01 PM
Basement Bias Basement Bias is offline
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Parkway has always had the drive to succeed in baseball. Football wasn't as big to them as schools in other areas. The other reasons why ML and CW succeed more than the Parkway types are the farm kids. Parkway has some, but not like the other 2. I also agree they haven't had the coaching at every age group to be successful as well.
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  #208  
Old 03-09-18, 09:17 AM
thereckoning thereckoning is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
That I will agree with, but back to Parkway their lack of success has nothing to do with pee wee football, it has to do with a lack of a good coach at the H.S. level.
Agreed with the HS coach comment. However, if you look at successful programs that have youth programs as well....many of them have HS coaches involved in (or at least giving advice to) youth coaches about techniques, play books, etc. I believe this is the point Blue Jay Fan is trying to make. DSJ benefits from midget because long term coaches are involved from the bottom up. Kids in a small school stick with the system. Its just as systematic as Coldwater or ML in Jr High having coaches buy in. For schools with much lower enrollments that still have to play against teams with double the enrollment, it is highly beneficial to get a head start on the program fundamentals. Midget equates to success in many schools. It just so happens that the MAC (teams without midget) is the extreme exception to the rule because the work ethic, genetics, and coaching is that good.

I personally think PW needs a coach that will help these kids buy in at an early age. They have peewee and need the system in place.

I will take nothing away from the success of schools without midget football. Props to the MAC for producing extremely proud traditions, with or without.
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  #209  
Old 03-09-18, 09:44 AM
Rangerfan Rangerfan is offline
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Originally Posted by thereckoning View Post
While the MAC's recent success cannot be denied, one can point to Blue Jay Fan as his school contributed to the start and continuation of that success on a high level. Coldwater, Versailles, ML, SH, and Minster (maybe others I'm missing) have also had success, but one can also ask....how many of these kids played at the peewee level either in pads or flag football? How many went to Celina to play peewee? How many went to Lima or Wapak?
Can't answer for all the schools, but I would imagine the total number of kids from Coldwater, Versailles, Fort Recovery, Marion Local, St. Henry, New Bremen and Minster who play pee wee football in another town is anywhere from zero to two.

I can't imagine any parents even considering driving to another town to play peewee football.

As for players dropping out, it is mostly a matter of opportunity. Tons of kids go out for 7th grade football. If the program is run properly, all the kids get enough playing time that most of them return for 8th grade and freshman football, with a few dropping out as they realize they do not enjoy the game or that they prefer a job and the money it provides. Also, freshman year provides the chance to go out for golf, which drains a couple of kids.

By sophomore year, there are now more players fighting for limited spots on the JV team and some leave at that point. Junior year is another dropoff, as the varsity teams plays just to win and not to develop players, and opportunity for playing time drops again. Plus, most juniors now have their driver's license and with the greater mobility comes opportunity for other activities (jobs, etc.).

Senior year sees a big dropoff as many players realize they are still not going to get much varsity playing time and are no longer willing to put in the work for limited reward.
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Old 03-09-18, 11:08 AM
thereckoning thereckoning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangerfan View Post
Can't answer for all the schools, but I would imagine the total number of kids from Coldwater, Versailles, Fort Recovery, Marion Local, St. Henry, New Bremen and Minster who play pee wee football in another town is anywhere from zero to two.

I can't imagine any parents even considering driving to another town to play peewee football.

As for players dropping out, it is mostly a matter of opportunity. Tons of kids go out for 7th grade football. If the program is run properly, all the kids get enough playing time that most of them return for 8th grade and freshman football, with a few dropping out as they realize they do not enjoy the game or that they prefer a job and the money it provides. Also, freshman year provides the chance to go out for golf, which drains a couple of kids.

By sophomore year, there are now more players fighting for limited spots on the JV team and some leave at that point. Junior year is another dropoff, as the varsity teams plays just to win and not to develop players, and opportunity for playing time drops again. Plus, most juniors now have their driver's license and with the greater mobility comes opportunity for other activities (jobs, etc.).

Senior year sees a big dropoff as many players realize they are still not going to get much varsity playing time and are no longer willing to put in the work for limited reward.
So to your point, more kids that play midget in Delphos stick with football and don't take the opportunity to do other activities than those that don't play midget at the other MAC powers? I'm still trying to wrap my head around a 50% drop off compared to a much lesser drop off at a similar MAC school (DSJ) that is by the numbers the second best school to play in the conference.

It makes for a good talking point. All in all, one cannot blame any MAC power for not having midget because its working. However, if you run into someone that has seen first hand the value of midget, I could not imagine how much more powerful these programs could be with it.
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