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  #331  
Old 02-23-17, 12:36 PM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zezzo! View Post
Whoever says Luke Kennard is not an all-time great hasn't seen him play or doesn't know the game. He may be one of the top 5 to come out Dayton. IMO he is.
I think again that just shows what a deep proud history Dayton has. This kid is doing big things at the college level, and there is still a debate for the top 5. The top 10 is a lock now.

I wish somehow there was a way to quantify Basketball players of skill per population size over history. Dayton would have to be near the top.
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  #332  
Old 02-23-17, 12:49 PM
BigWorm BigWorm is offline
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Originally Posted by Zezzo! View Post
Whoever says Luke Kennard is not an all-time great hasn't seen him play or doesn't know the game. He may be one of the top 5 to come out Dayton. IMO he is.
lmao Dayton....
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  #333  
Old 02-23-17, 03:01 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
I think again that just shows what a deep proud history Dayton has. This kid is doing big things at the college level, and there is still a debate for the top 5. The top 10 is a lock now.

I wish somehow there was a way to quantify Basketball players of skill per population size over history. Dayton would have to be near the top.
I've always figured there was a neighborhood on the south or west side of Chicago that would win that, but it's hard to piece together because the high schools are open enrollment. Derrick Rose and Jabari Parker grew up about three miles apart, that'd be a good start.
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  #334  
Old 02-23-17, 03:55 PM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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Originally Posted by BigWorm View Post
lmao Dayton....
McDonald's All-America has been around since 1977, Ohio Mr. Basketball started in 1989. In the tradition rich history of Dayton and Dayton area basketball, there has been only been 5 high school all-americans( Dwight Anderson, John Paxson, Daquan Cook, Jason Collier and Luke Kennard )and only 2 Mr. Basketball winners and 15 have made all-american from Ohio. Over 100 players have been nominated from this area since 1977. Luke is the only one from this basketball rich area to win Mr. Basketball twice in fact in southwest Ohio only one other person has done it(O.J. Mayo) and McDonald's all-america. No one else from here has those distinctions.

Granted prior to 1989 there's no doubt there would be at least 2 players that would've laid claim to that distinction, Anderson and Paxson. However, that's not Luke's fault. So laugh if you want but there is no doubt he is one of the top 5 ever to come out this area.....
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  #335  
Old 02-23-17, 05:23 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Originally Posted by Zezzo! View Post
McDonald's All-America has been around since 1977, Ohio Mr. Basketball started in 1989. In the tradition rich history of Dayton and Dayton area basketball, there has been only been 5 high school all-americans( Dwight Anderson, John Paxson, Daquan Cook, Jason Collier and Luke Kennard )and only 2 Mr. Basketball winners and 15 have made all-american from Ohio. Over 100 players have been nominated from this area since 1977. Luke is the only one from this basketball rich area to win Mr. Basketball twice in fact in southwest Ohio only one other person has done it(O.J. Mayo) and McDonald's all-america. No one else from here has those distinctions.

Granted prior to 1989 there's no doubt there would be at least 2 players that would've laid claim to that distinction, Anderson and Paxson. However, that's not Luke's fault. So laugh if you want but there is no doubt he is one of the top 5 ever to come out this area.....
Are you saying there have only been 100 nominations for McDonald's all -Americans from the Dayton Area? Or did you mean 100 nominations for Mr Basketball? The year a family member was nominated there were about 120 from Ohio and about 15 from what I would call the Dayton area. (FAIRBORN, TROY, BEAVERCREEK, MIDDLETOWN INCLUDED)

Last edited by D4fan; 02-23-17 at 05:37 PM.
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  #336  
Old 02-23-17, 05:54 PM
BlackHawk BlackHawk is offline
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Originally Posted by troyboy73 View Post
Jason Collier/Springfield Catholic Central
Adriene Payne/Dayton Jefferson
Keith Waleskowski/Alter
Andre Hutson/Trotwood-Madison
Some good choices.

Obviously Collier was top notch, but since he's from Springfield, I didn't include him.

At 6'8", Keith Waleskowski was the best rebounder at UD in the last twenty years...better than Chris Wright. I'd have to go back to Ryan Perryman to find a better rebounder for the Flyers.

Keith's brother 6'9" Adam (Florida State) was awfully talented, too. His tomahawk dunks were incredible...he could sky. Alter won two state championships with Adam Waleskowski. Those were some solid Alter teams...the Waleskowski brothers, plus I believe the Penno boys were also on those teams ...one went to UD and the other to Miami, maybe?
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  #337  
Old 02-23-17, 06:49 PM
petroglyph petroglyph is offline
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Originally Posted by BlackHawk View Post
Some good choices.

Obviously Collier was top notch, but since he's from Springfield, I didn't include him.

At 6'8", Keith Waleskowski was the best rebounder at UD in the last twenty years...better than Chris Wright. I'd have to go back to Ryan Perryman to find a better rebounder for the Flyers.

Keith's brother 6'9" Adam (Florida State) was awfully talented, too. His tomahawk dunks were incredible...he could sky. Alter won two state championships with Adam Waleskowski. Those were some solid Alter teams...the Waleskowski brothers, plus I believe the Penno boys were also on those teams ...one went to UD and the other to Miami, maybe?
you want to go back for top big man..you could select Monk Meinecke,certainly Wayne Embry ( New Carlisle). Plus I think people are way underestemating Bill Hoskett as an hs player. At Belmont and then at Ohio State and finally as a 1st round pick he was thought to be the better of the Belmont players (Donnie May)Believe Hoskettt went ! and May 2 to the Knicks same year (1968?).
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  #338  
Old 02-23-17, 07:20 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Originally Posted by petroglyph View Post
you want to go back for top big man..you could select Monk Meinecke,certainly Wayne Embry ( New Carlisle). Plus I think people are way underestemating Bill Hoskett as an hs player. At Belmont and then at Ohio State and finally as a 1st round pick he was thought to be the better of the Belmont players (Donnie May)Believe Hoskettt went ! and May 2 to the Knicks same year (1968?).
That's correct on Hosket; he was the tenth pick in the draft. May went in the third round.
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  #339  
Old 02-23-17, 09:24 PM
Sgt Friday Sgt Friday is offline
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Originally Posted by Zezzo! View Post
McDonald's All-America has been around since 1977, Ohio Mr. Basketball started in 1989. In the tradition rich history of Dayton and Dayton area basketball, there has been only been 5 high school all-americans( Dwight Anderson, John Paxson, Daquan Cook, Jason Collier and Luke Kennard )and only 2 Mr. Basketball winners and 15 have made all-american from Ohio. Over 100 players have been nominated from this area since 1977. Luke is the only one from this basketball rich area to win Mr. Basketball twice in fact in southwest Ohio only one other person has done it(O.J. Mayo) and McDonald's all-america. No one else from here has those distinctions.



Granted prior to 1989 there's no doubt there would be at least 2 players that would've laid claim to that distinction, Anderson and Paxson. However, that's not Luke's fault. So laugh if you want but there is no doubt he is one of the top 5 ever to come out this area.....


Correct it was done before 1989, Jerry Lucas did it three times. Would've been four but he was ineligible as a freshmen back then. Followed that up with the ONLY three time Big 10 player of the year, again ineligible in college as a freshmen or would've been four time B1G player of the year. Still the only player in NCAA tournament history to have a 30/30 game in the tournament. There's a reason he was named to Sports Illustrated All 20th century team.


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  #340  
Old 02-23-17, 10:01 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Lucas was USBWA national high school player of the year in 1957 and 1958. The only other two-time winners ever were Lew Alcindor and LeBron James.

By the time he was Kennard's age (20) he'd dropped 25 in an Olympic final and won a gold medal. At 21 he was SI Sportsman of the Year, the first basketball player ever named (there wasn't another until Bill Russell in '68, then Jabbar in '85, and there still hasn't been another college player). By 22 he'd been USBWA national college player of the year twice (also a short list: Robertson, Lucas, Bradley, Alcindor, Maravich, Walton, Sampson).

Why are we even arguing this? Does anyone think Kennard's peers as a player are Kareem and LeBron and Oscar? Is he going to be Sportsman of the Year?

There hasn't been anything like the Lucas phenomenon in SW Ohio again, ever. Nothing close. The only thing any of us has seen to compare is LeBron.

Last edited by Yeoman; 02-23-17 at 10:15 PM.
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  #341  
Old 02-24-17, 03:17 AM
Sgt Friday Sgt Friday is offline
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Kennard All-Time Dayton Great

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeoman View Post
Lucas was USBWA national high school player of the year in 1957 and 1958. The only other two-time winners ever were Lew Alcindor and LeBron James.

By the time he was Kennard's age (20) he'd dropped 25 in an Olympic final and won a gold medal. At 21 he was SI Sportsman of the Year, the first basketball player ever named (there wasn't another until Bill Russell in '68, then Jabbar in '85, and there still hasn't been another college player). By 22 he'd been USBWA national college player of the year twice (also a short list: Robertson, Lucas, Bradley, Alcindor, Maravich, Walton, Sampson).

Why are we even arguing this? Does anyone think Kennard's peers as a player are Kareem and LeBron and Oscar? Is he going to be Sportsman of the Year?

There hasn't been anything like the Lucas phenomenon in SW Ohio again, ever. Nothing close. The only thing any of us has seen to compare is LeBron.


Nobody is debating Kennard/Lucas I was replying to a comment that someone posted that someone was probably 2 time Ohio player of the year before 1989 Mr Basketball award. I replied it was done before 1989, Lucas was POY three years in HS and NCAA. I in no way was comparing Kennard or anyone else from Dayton to Lucas, there is no comparison. The only other Ohio player in the conversation with Lucas is LeBron. A lot of kids on here are clueless to how decorated Lucas was/is. Just highlighting a great career that's all. Where in that post did I even mention Kennard or any other player?

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  #342  
Old 02-24-17, 05:22 AM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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That was a response to the thread, not to you, triggered mostly by the same post you were responding to (which listed possible 2-time Ohio POTYs from SW Ohio before 1989 and didn't even mention Lucas at all). We're twelve pages deep in a thread full of all-time top 5 lists and Lucas has barely gotten a mention except to suggest that he couldn't hold a candle to any of the recent Dunbar greats.

For a while I thought that was because maybe Middletown wasn't considered Dayton-area. But then why would Franklin be?
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  #343  
Old 02-24-17, 09:13 AM
ammtd34 ammtd34 is offline
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Collier's an interesting case. I think he may have actually been a few years ahead of the curve as a player and suffered a little bit at Indiana because of it. Knight was adamant that he was a center, but he had range to 23 or 24 feet and was an above average ball handler. He had more freedom at Georgia Tech and averaged 17 pts and 9 rebs in the ACC. With the way a lot of coaches want to switch all ball screens 1-5, he may have been better suited for today's college game than he was 18 years ago.
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  #344  
Old 02-24-17, 11:46 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Originally Posted by ammtd34 View Post
Collier's an interesting case. I think he may have actually been a few years ahead of the curve as a player and suffered a little bit at Indiana because of it. Knight was adamant that he was a center, but he had range to 23 or 24 feet and was an above average ball handler. He had more freedom at Georgia Tech and averaged 17 pts and 9 rebs in the ACC. With the way a lot of coaches want to switch all ball screens 1-5, he may have been better suited for today's college game than he was 18 years ago.
Switching all screens means that 7 footer is unlikely to be as effective as the athletic 6'8" kid. I think Collier would have been harmed more by switching everything, but appreciate the point concerning his offensive capabilities.
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  #345  
Old 02-27-17, 08:49 AM
ammtd34 ammtd34 is offline
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Switching all screens means that 7 footer is unlikely to be as effective as the athletic 6'8" kid. I think Collier would have been harmed more by switching everything, but appreciate the point concerning his offensive capabilities.
I know. I just think he was more athletic than most centers, so a coach now would be more likely to switch with him. Jamie Dixon, for example, has always switched screens with guys way less athletic (Gary McGhee vs Kemba Walker? Yikes.) Obviously a quick PG on any C is a mismatch, but the alternative is giving up step-in threes by not switching.
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  #346  
Old 02-27-17, 08:50 AM
Captain Awesome Captain Awesome is offline
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Kennard goes over 1,000 career points on Saturday at Duke.
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  #347  
Old 03-01-17, 06:44 PM
ratterbox ratterbox is offline
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That Middletown / Frankilin team is pretty good here are some kids "off the bench"
John Fraley 6'5" 34 pts a game
Jimmy Ratliff 6'7" Played at Ohio State
Jesse Jemison 6'8" UC and globe Trotters (just passed away this week)
Edwards Playing at Purdue (whole family)
Paul Walker Jr. I think he was all state
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  #348  
Old 03-07-17, 03:07 PM
ammtd34 ammtd34 is offline
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I know some Springfield guys on here might have some other ideas, but here's my attempt at a Springfield squad.

Jason Collier - Catholic Central - Indiana/Georgia Tech/Rockets/Hawks
Fred Carson - Springfield North - Texas
Ivan Harris - Springfield North/South/Oak Hill - Ohio State
John Carson - Springfield South - Cincinnati/Akron

I need a point guard. Jason Ronai from the '96 CCHS team could run it. James Cooper (2,037 points at Wooster) could too if you just wanted to outscore everyone. There are a ton of potential bench players, too. Marcus Banta, Adam Ellis, Isaiah Carson, Jon Powell, Randy Ayers, Nate Miler. I didn't really try to narrow this down or construct an actual team. This is just off the top of my head.
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  #349  
Old 03-07-17, 04:35 PM
troyboy73 troyboy73 is offline
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Ronai would fit in well. Also consider Randy Ayers/Miami, OH./Jody Finney/Ohio State Fred Foster/Miami, OH-Maurice Houston/Tennessee Tech-Karlton Clayborne/Miami, OH.-Elliot Fullen/Northwestern-Ivan Harris/Ohio State (Oak Hill Academy grad)-Danny Davis/Wisconsin for football (2017 grad)
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  #350  
Old 03-07-17, 04:43 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Anyone remember the name of a kid ( was back then) from Northwestern in about 1976 or so. In the game I saw him play he was surrounded by future D1 players and totally dominated the game. Played center or forward.
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  #351  
Old 03-08-17, 10:05 AM
ammtd34 ammtd34 is offline
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Originally Posted by troyboy73 View Post
Ronai would fit in well. Also consider Randy Ayers/Miami, OH./Jody Finney/Ohio State Fred Foster/Miami, OH-Maurice Houston/Tennessee Tech-Karlton Clayborne/Miami, OH.-Elliot Fullen/Northwestern-Ivan Harris/Ohio State (Oak Hill Academy grad)-Danny Davis/Wisconsin for football (2017 grad)
Good call on Houston. He was still playing in the Deveroes League in Cincinnati when he was in his 40s. Springfield has had some serious talent.

Edit: Probably have to mention Elgrace Wilborn, too. What a freak.

Oh, and Wayne Embry, 5 time NBA All Star.

Last edited by ammtd34; 03-08-17 at 10:33 AM.
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  #352  
Old 03-09-17, 08:46 AM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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None of those teams would beat the all-time Dayton team. They couldn't beat them when they were in high school.
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  #353  
Old 03-09-17, 08:57 AM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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Originally Posted by ammtd34 View Post
Good call on Houston. He was still playing in the Deveroes League in Cincinnati when he was in his 40s. Springfield has had some serious talent.

Edit: Probably have to mention Elgrace Wilborn, too. What a freak.

Oh, and Wayne Embry, 5 time NBA All Star.
If you mention Wilborn and Harris(vastly overrated) you have to mention Eric Strodes from North. He,not Harris, was the best player on that North team. He destroyed Andre Hudson and was a monster on the glass. Also Jason Gee from South he was a teammate of Clayborne and went on to play D1 ball as well and coach on the collegiate level. Thomas Stephens was before the Carson brothers is also one of the best point guards to come out Springfield.
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  #354  
Old 03-09-17, 10:16 AM
BigWorm BigWorm is offline
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Wow did he get bailed out by teammates yesterday....yikes
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  #355  
Old 03-09-17, 10:24 AM
troyboy73 troyboy73 is offline
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Jason Gee played at D-2 Charleston, WV
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  #356  
Old 03-09-17, 10:26 AM
ammtd34 ammtd34 is offline
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Originally Posted by Zezzo! View Post
If you mention Wilborn and Harris(vastly overrated) you have to mention Eric Strodes from North. He,not Harris, was the best player on that North team. He destroyed Andre Hudson and was a monster on the glass. Also Jason Gee from South he was a teammate of Clayborne and went on to play D1 ball as well and coach on the collegiate level. Thomas Stephens was before the Carson brothers is also one of the best point guards to come out Springfield.
I don't think Ivan ever played with Eric Thomas or Chris Strodes. Ivan's freshman year was 99-00.
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  #357  
Old 03-09-17, 01:18 PM
Captain Awesome Captain Awesome is offline
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Wow did he get bailed out by teammates yesterday....yikes
He had a bad half? he was 8-11 in the second half still had 20 points and shot 9-20 nearly 50 percent, really stunk it up...

He has been named a first team all american first team all ACC how many guys from Dayton area have been first team all american?
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  #358  
Old 03-09-17, 03:53 PM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Wow did he get bailed out by teammates yesterday....yikes
just like you getting bailed out by your Dad when your Mom yells at you for being on the computer all day. Get off the keyboard and go to bed, the bus will be at the door before you know it.
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  #359  
Old 03-09-17, 04:04 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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USBWA all-americans from the area since 1957. You can decide how far to extend "Dayton-area": does it stop on the border between Franklin and Middletown? Between Middletown and Hamilton? Cincinnati and Columbus are obviously out and I'm stopping at the state border.

Before 1985 they made no distinction between first and second team, and in 1998 and 1999 they expanded to a third team.

Jerry Lucas (x3)
Don May
Kevin Grevey
Jim Paxson
Ron Harper (2nd team)

Did I miss anyone?

---

And I've got to say I'm amazed that Harper is getting left off top-ten lists. I know his high school career was short but he was first-team all-Ohio, second-team all-America, starter on 5 NBA champions, scored 13000+ points in the association. How'd he do all that without top-ten talent? I guess you can make an argument for one of the Paxsons and Lucas is obviously in a class by himself, but what did these other guys ever do to compare?

Last edited by Yeoman; 03-09-17 at 04:19 PM.
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  #360  
Old 03-09-17, 04:11 PM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Originally Posted by Yeoman View Post
USBWA all-americans from the area since 1957. You can decide how far to extend "Dayton-area": does it stop on the border between Franklin and Middletown? Between Middletown and Hamilton? Cincinnati and Columbus are obviously out and I'm stopping at the state border.

Before 1985 they made no distinction between first and second team, and in 1998 and 1999 they expanded to a third team.

Jerry Lucas (x3)
Don May
Kevin Grevey
Jim Paxson
Ron Harper (2nd team)

Did I miss anyone?
Yes. The Dayton city league produces 3 to 4 every year. Each ones gets drafted into the NBA after half of season college. There is also a special wing in National Basketball hall of Fame for the Dayton City league. The true conference of champions. Barf.
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