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  #31  
Old 05-22-18, 02:02 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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Madman,
I agree with all of that. that is why "the current system" which is equitable and fair (Top 4) could/would not be changed. IMO this is just a compromise or addition that will not disrupt but could enhance the State Meet.
No loss of oppurnunity for anyone.
Compitition will NOT be worse, and could be better.
Money will not be worse and could be better.
Experiences for kids will not be worse and could be better.

time will tell.
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  #32  
Old 05-22-18, 02:22 PM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunnerAdespota View Post
All of this is fine, but it doesn't address the competitive imbalance that exists among some of the regional meets, depending on the year. Hypothetically, if I run low 9's in the 3200 and place 5th because it happens to be stacked, but in another region low 10s is 4th place, I would be grateful for the additional time qualification that allows me to beat those runners at states. How many times do we see lesser competitive marks advance because of weak districts/regions? Marks that might not even be in the finals in other regions? Knowing I could be one of the two time qualifiers only motivates me and the other people in the race more and makes the race more exciting, at worst. Nothing wrong with that.

I mean, come on. We're filling an empty lane at OSU with a competitor. What's wrong with that? We're not adopting qualifying standards or going strictly only on time. We take away nothing, here, and add more competition. Does a 5th place runner in a tough region being able to run at states take away something or cheapen anything? Not if they can compete, and they will be able to.

But watching a 4th place qualifier who is way out of their wheelhouse place last in their prelim at states, when there are kids who aren't there who can outrace them anytime, anywhere, and in any conditions, has always bothered me.
Odd that you would use the 3200 as your example since that is the race that has the most to gain by running a tactical race at district and leaving something in the tank for the the next two weeks. If the 4th place runner at another district was a lap ahead of the next runner why would he NOT coast to a 10:00 4th place?
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  #33  
Old 05-22-18, 03:09 PM
RunnerAdespota RunnerAdespota is offline
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Originally Posted by yj_runfan View Post
Odd that you would use the 3200 as your example since that is the race that has the most to gain by running a tactical race at district and leaving something in the tank for the the next two weeks. If the 4th place runner at another district was a lap ahead of the next runner why would he NOT coast to a 10:00 4th place?
He should coast to a fourth. Because he's in fourth. Because he will qualify based on place. Because the change we are discussing doesn't affect that.

It does affect the person who placed 5th in another region, but ran low 9s, and coasting wasn't an option for anybody because it was a deeper race. Now they get the opportunity to run.

I mean, it's hypothetical, but seriously. Why is this controversial?

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  #34  
Old 05-22-18, 05:05 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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Lead me through the conversation when the best 5th place time from regionals chooses not to run that race at state in lieu of another race.

Is the new rule "the two fastest 5th place times from regionals," or "the next two fastest times not in the top 4 from regional meets." Can a 6th place time advance if faster than 5th from other regions?
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  #35  
Old 05-22-18, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Newton's Third View Post
Lead me through the conversation when the best 5th place time from regionals chooses not to run that race at state in lieu of another race.

Is the new rule "the two fastest 5th place times from regionals," or "the next two fastest times not in the top 4 from regional meets." Can a 6th place time advance if faster than 5th from other regions?
It's the 2 fastest times from regionals that did not place in the top 4, so a 6th place time would be eligible for the 2nd at-large berth.

Incidentally, I never thought of the possibility that you could have someone take a 6th and decide to scratch the event at state. Let's say a distance doubler gets 6th in the 1600 but battles back for a 3rd in the 800 or 3200. Kid gets the 2nd at-large spot in the 1600, but the writing might already be on the wall for that kid's state prospects, so even though the kid qualified in the event, he or she scratches it to focus on the other event where the chances of placing seem better. It could happen. Even so, my answer would be the same as it is for any other time someone qualifies and then scratches: "They earned the spot, so they can do whatever they want with it. They don't owe anything to anyone."
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  #36  
Old 05-22-18, 05:41 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by ENA2 View Post
Madman,
I agree with all of that. that is why "the current system" which is equitable and fair (Top 4) could/would not be changed. IMO this is just a compromise or addition that will not disrupt but could enhance the State Meet.
No loss of oppurnunity for anyone.
Compitition will NOT be worse, and could be better.
Money will not be worse and could be better.
Experiences for kids will not be worse and could be better.

time will tell.
Agree with all of this. And to suggest the only point of the state tournament is to find out who is thee fastest, is nonsense. If that were the case, they wouldn't give points for 2nd - 8th, and they certainly wouldn't bother keeping team scores.
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  #37  
Old 05-22-18, 09:40 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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I think this essentially kills having a 4th division which I feel is more fair. I do not think there is a need to include more D3 and D2 athletes, but I do feel that the current D1 should be split into 2 divisions and give those kids a more "fair" opportunity to compete at the state level. I was a D3/D2 competitor and D2 coach, so I'm not some D1 homer. Just my opinion.

I feel that better competition makes for better competition. We usually compete in a tougher District and Regional. It might make it so we qualify less kids, but the kids we do qualify are better for the tougher competition.

I have never been to the state meet and thought the races would be better if only the 5th place finisher or 6th place from a Region was there.

We have had instances where our usually weaker competitor beat out our usually better competitor to go on to Regional and even the State Meet. We don't vote kids All-State. It's not ones body of work, but one performance on a single day. Mess that up or get sick or fall down and it's over. Just the way the sport is.

I don't care that someone runs a low 9's and isn't at the state meet while a 10+ is there. I don't really care about times. Just don't. My best races were not necessarily my best times.

If I were king, it would be top 4 only. I'm not, so I'm good with the next 2 fastest making it. Like was said, there is going to be a relay or individual that wins a state championship from next 2 best times and I personally do not think that is fair to the kids that beat them. No one is going to go for 5th as a sure way of getting in. It's luck at that point and we are penalizing those that eliminated them in the race. That's my opinion.

I have a big issue with it not being field events. Do it all or don't do it.

I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining. I am fine with the change, I just disagree with it. More participation is for JV meets and dual meets. Not the state meet. Only my opinion.
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  #38  
Old 05-22-18, 10:06 PM
RunnerAdespota RunnerAdespota is offline
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http://www.news-herald.com/sports/20...s-next-opinion

Article from Chris Lillstrung about this.

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  #39  
Old 05-23-18, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I think this essentially kills having a 4th division which I feel is more fair. I do not think there is a need to include more D3 and D2 athletes, but I do feel that the current D1 should be split into 2 divisions and give those kids a more "fair" opportunity to compete at the state level. I was a D3/D2 competitor and D2 coach, so I'm not some D1 homer. Just my opinion.

I feel that better competition makes for better competition. We usually compete in a tougher District and Regional. It might make it so we qualify less kids, but the kids we do qualify are better for the tougher competition.

I have never been to the state meet and thought the races would be better if only the 5th place finisher or 6th place from a Region was there.

We have had instances where our usually weaker competitor beat out our usually better competitor to go on to Regional and even the State Meet. We don't vote kids All-State. It's not ones body of work, but one performance on a single day. Mess that up or get sick or fall down and it's over. Just the way the sport is.

I don't care that someone runs a low 9's and isn't at the state meet while a 10+ is there. I don't really care about times. Just don't. My best races were not necessarily my best times.

If I were king, it would be top 4 only. I'm not, so I'm good with the next 2 fastest making it. Like was said, there is going to be a relay or individual that wins a state championship from next 2 best times and I personally do not think that is fair to the kids that beat them. No one is going to go for 5th as a sure way of getting in. It's luck at that point and we are penalizing those that eliminated them in the race. That's my opinion.

I have a big issue with it not being field events. Do it all or don't do it.

I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining. I am fine with the change, I just disagree with it. More participation is for JV meets and dual meets. Not the state meet. Only my opinion.
I like your idea of splitting D1 into two divisions.
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  #40  
Old 05-23-18, 06:49 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Regardless

Timing Companies will be getting a lot of clicks this week.

Last edited by EuclidandViren; 05-24-18 at 11:16 AM..
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  #41  
Old 05-23-18, 06:58 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunnerAdespota View Post
http://www.news-herald.com/sports/20...s-next-opinion

Article from Chris Lillstrung about this.

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good points here but he should have just made the case for 4 divisions. Ohio has the 4th largest amount of track athletes in the US and we rank 48th in the number that run at state. Every regional is borderline unfair.

Example- 2 years ago I saw a DIII girls 4x4 run 3:59 and not get in. Heck 25 years ago that was the state record time for DII girls.

THe only thing keeping us from this is the fact that the OHSAA thinks we dont have enough officials and seem to not be able to find a schedule that works. (both of these can be solved easily)
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  #42  
Old 05-23-18, 07:22 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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Again, I tend to agree with pychodad, Especially about field events and hope they iron that out by next year as I see the justice in this for the SP, Disc, HJ and PV more that the LJ and running events.
and When watching the State Meet(s), I do often think that the competitions would be different if this kid (the 58' shot putter who was 5th at their region) or That kid (the 9:20 3200 guy who schratched after the 1600) were in the field. The new rule will help with the in the first example but not the second.

Also, from what I know, this rule has no baring on the proposal to add a 4th division. that is another topic, but I have a State Meet schedule to have 4 divisions over two days - just start an hour earlier and and end a hour later - with all running and field events having 18 qulifiers and enough officials. The regional meets with 4 divisions may be a bigger problem for scheduling and officials?... I don't know about that.
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  #43  
Old 05-23-18, 07:26 AM
RunnerAdespota RunnerAdespota is offline
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Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
good points here but he should have just made the case for 4 divisions. Ohio has the 4th largest amount of track athletes in the US and we rank 48th in the number that run at state. Every regional is borderline unfair.

Example- 2 years ago I saw a DIII girls 4x4 run 3:59 and not get in. Heck 25 years ago that was the state record time for DII girls.

THe only thing keeping us from this is the fact that the OHSAA thinks we dont have enough officials and seem to not be able to find a schedule that works. (both of these can be solved easily)
Four divisions is absolutely the real answer to this. The statistic you mention is staggering if you think about it, and it's not good for the kids or the sport.

The OHSAA doesn't like to change, though. Maybe this addition that gives kids opportunities without fundamentally changing anything is a knock on that door.
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  #44  
Old 05-23-18, 07:43 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Originally Posted by RunnerAdespota View Post
Four divisions is absolutely the real answer to this. The statistic you mention is staggering if you think about it, and it's not good for the kids or the sport.

The OHSAA doesn't like to change, though. Maybe this addition that gives kids opportunities without fundamentally changing anything is a knock on that door.
yes......if kids with talent think they have no shot they will just go off in the spring and play REC soccer or AAU bball. If I ran a 3:59 or a 1:54 or a 7:51 and didnt get to showcase my talent and effort in the sports biggest stage or promote my talents to the college coaches that only recruit state qualifiers I may be less motivated.

Give a kid a chance and you may give a kid a lifetime memory
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  #45  
Old 05-23-18, 08:50 AM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I think this essentially kills having a 4th division which I feel is more fair. I do not think there is a need to include more D3 and D2 athletes, but I do feel that the current D1 should be split into 2 divisions and give those kids a more "fair" opportunity to compete at the state level. I was a D3/D2 competitor and D2 coach, so I'm not some D1 homer. Just my opinion.

I feel that better competition makes for better competition. We usually compete in a tougher District and Regional. It might make it so we qualify less kids, but the kids we do qualify are better for the tougher competition.

I have never been to the state meet and thought the races would be better if only the 5th place finisher or 6th place from a Region was there.

We have had instances where our usually weaker competitor beat out our usually better competitor to go on to Regional and even the State Meet. We don't vote kids All-State. It's not ones body of work, but one performance on a single day. Mess that up or get sick or fall down and it's over. Just the way the sport is.

I don't care that someone runs a low 9's and isn't at the state meet while a 10+ is there. I don't really care about times. Just don't. My best races were not necessarily my best times.

If I were king, it would be top 4 only. I'm not, so I'm good with the next 2 fastest making it. Like was said, there is going to be a relay or individual that wins a state championship from next 2 best times and I personally do not think that is fair to the kids that beat them. No one is going to go for 5th as a sure way of getting in. It's luck at that point and we are penalizing those that eliminated them in the race. That's my opinion.

I have a big issue with it not being field events. Do it all or don't do it.

I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining. I am fine with the change, I just disagree with it. More participation is for JV meets and dual meets. Not the state meet. Only my opinion.
Good points, I had not considered that D2 and D3 are not really in need of this fix. Adding a 4th division would make each division pretty small (about 170) schools when compared to other sports.
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  #46  
Old 05-23-18, 08:54 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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4th division in track could go 2 ways.........super division I like in football and then even up the others with about 200 in them. The crying from the bottom of DI about competing with school 2-3 times their size still exists in DII and DIII with this format.

Or even up the divisions with equal amounts
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  #47  
Old 05-23-18, 09:33 AM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
4th division in track could go 2 ways.........super division I like in football and then even up the others with about 200 in them. The crying from the bottom of DI about competing with school 2-3 times their size still exists in DII and DIII with this format.

Or even up the divisions with equal amounts
Well only the bottom division would have a case, as any middle divisions, like D2 now, have a relatively small difference between the smallest and largest. But even at that, the bottom division still doesn't have the same disparity, given it is about a 900 student differential at the top.
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  #48  
Old 05-23-18, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
4th division in track could go 2 ways.........super division I like in football and then even up the others with about 200 in them. The crying from the bottom of DI about competing with school 2-3 times their size still exists in DII and DIII with this format.

Or even up the divisions with equal amounts
Just looking at what enrollment numbers are right now:
I know it's not true, but let's keep it simple and say every school in Ohio has a boys track team. There are 804 OHSAA members schools with boys. That would be 201 per division if an even split into 4 divisions. Cut-offs would be:
DI: 346 to 1357 (201 schools)
DII: 198 to 344 (199 schools, 3 schools at 197)
DIII: 117 to 197 (202 schools, 3 schools at 116)
DIV: 5 to 116 (202 schools)

OK, now what if we took those same numbers and did a super division like football. Let's say we take the top 100 and ties and put them into the super division.
DI: 508 to 1357 (100 schools)
DII: 236 to 507 (233 schools, 7 schools at 235)
DIII: 128 to 235 (234 schools, 3 schools at 127)
DIV: 5 to 127 (237 schools)


Admittedly, the numbers would look slightly different if I had an official list of which schools are counted as teams since many at the low end of DIII don't actually have teams (Ex. Put-in-Bay doesn't have enough boys to be counted as a team, and Canton Heritage Christian is closing its MS and HS in a matter of days). You get the general look of it though. Both methods have their pros and cons.

Not a big deal, but a change would have to be made to the super division in that you wouldn't need 16 district meets for that division to whittle the field down for regionals. You'd only have 25 teams per region which means 50 individuals, so I guess you'd only need 2 district meets per region and could just advance the top 8 to regionals. Some might view that as being unfair to the other divisions.

Which do you like better?
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  #49  
Old 05-23-18, 09:43 AM
Altor Altor is offline
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Originally Posted by Hammerdrill View Post
But even at that, the bottom division still doesn't have the same disparity, given it is about a 900 student differential at the top.
Age old statistical question regarding distributions.

Is it a bigger disparity that you have 900 fewer bodies to choose from, even though it's only 3-4 times larger?

Or is it a bigger disparity having to compete against schools 30 times larger than you, even though it's only 150 or so in the headcount?
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  #50  
Old 05-23-18, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Altor View Post
Age old statistical question regarding distributions.

Is it a bigger disparity that you have 900 fewer bodies to choose from, even though it's only 3-4 times larger?

Or is it a bigger disparity having to compete against schools 30 times larger than you, even though it's only 150 or so in the headcount?
Great question. I can't answer it because I'm too busy drowning in a river that is an average of 6 inches deep.

End of the day, I'd rather be a 5 person school competing against the school with only 145 more bodies than be a 300 person school competing against the one that has an extra 900 bodies.

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  #51  
Old 05-23-18, 09:55 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Originally Posted by RunnerAdespota View Post
He should coast to a fourth. Because he's in fourth. Because he will qualify based on place. Because the change we are discussing doesn't affect that.

It does affect the person who placed 5th in another region, but ran low 9s, and coasting wasn't an option for anybody because it was a deeper race. Now they get the opportunity to run.

I mean, it's hypothetical, but seriously. Why is this controversial?

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Your example claimed a 10:00 4th place would have been an indication of a weak district. I simply pointed out that you can't make that judgement.
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  #52  
Old 05-23-18, 09:55 AM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by Altor View Post
Age old statistical question regarding distributions.

Is it a bigger disparity that you have 900 fewer bodies to choose from, even though it's only 3-4 times larger?

Or is it a bigger disparity having to compete against schools 30 times larger than you, even though it's only 150 or so in the headcount?
It's a good point. But percentages do not run races, people do. Which one would you rather compete against? One with 150 more, or one with 900 more?
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  #53  
Old 05-23-18, 10:25 AM
Altor Altor is offline
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Originally Posted by Hammerdrill View Post
It's a good point. But percentages do not run races, people do. Which one would you rather compete against? One with 150 more, or one with 900 more?
It's not a percentage question. Is a distribution question.
Statistically, Put-In-Bay with their 5 male students will have 3 that are 0 deviations from the mean, 1 that is 1 deviation above, and 1 that is 1 deviation below. Assuming they get all five to run cross country (because I don't believe they have a track team) and all other things being equal, they will never field a very good team.

Meanwhile, the school that has 150 males will normally (pun intended) get 1 student who is +2.5 deviations, 2 more that are +2 deviations, and probably 10 more that are +1.5 deviations.

The schools with 300 will get 1 that is +3 deviations about every other year, 2-3 more that are +2.5, and 3-4 that are +2, and 20 that are +1.5. The schools with 1300 will get 2 that are +3 deviations and probably 8 or 9 that are +2.5, and I don't feel like doing any more math.

Now I acknowledge this is very simplistic. The larger schools will have other sports and other opportunities that will draw some of those better athletes. But, you get the point. We're expecting PIB's -1 to match up with a +1.5 versus the bigger schools having to match up a +2 versus a +2.5. Considering the number of bodies in that normal curve between -1 and +1.5, that is a HUGE disadvantage.

(And I'm not advocating for more smaller divisions, just trying to bring it into perspective.)
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  #54  
Old 05-23-18, 10:33 AM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by Altor View Post
It's not a percentage question. Is a distribution question.
Statistically, Put-In-Bay with their 5 male students will have 3 that are 0 deviations from the mean, 1 that is 1 deviation above, and 1 that is 1 deviation below. Assuming they get all five to run cross country (because I don't believe they have a track team) and all other things being equal, they will never field a very good team.

Meanwhile, the school that has 150 males will normally (pun intended) get 1 student who is +2.5 deviations, 2 more that are +2 deviations, and probably 10 more that are +1.5 deviations.

The schools with 300 will get 1 that is +3 deviations about every other year, 2-3 more that are +2.5, and 3-4 that are +2, and 20 that are +1.5. The schools with 1300 will get 2 that are +3 deviations and probably 8 or 9 that are +2.5, and I don't feel like doing any more math.

Now I acknowledge this is very simplistic. The larger schools will have other sports and other opportunities that will draw some of those better athletes. But, you get the point. We're expecting PIB's -1 to match up with a +1.5 versus the bigger schools having to match up a +2 versus a +2.5. Considering the number of bodies in that normal curve between -1 and +1.5, that is a HUGE disadvantage.

(And I'm not advocating for more smaller divisions, just trying to bring it into perspective.)
Statistically speaking PIB is not normal.
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  #55  
Old 05-23-18, 10:42 AM
Altor Altor is offline
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Fair enough. let's use a random school that has 40 students, which percentage-wise is roughly analogous to the 300 vs 1300 in D-I.

1 at +2, 1 at +1.5, and 3 at +1. Number 5 at this school is only a half deviation off #5 of the big D-III, which mirrors the difference of D-I. But again, there are a lot more bodies at this portion of the curve.
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  #56  
Old 05-23-18, 11:23 AM
RunnerAdespota RunnerAdespota is offline
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I'm curious about what other states do so I spent some end-of-year time in my classroom putting a spreadsheet together. Then I found an article on MileSplit NY with information borrowed from a college coach who had done something similar. That is here:

http://ny.milesplit.com/articles/91194/spring-track-state-meet-qualifying-methods-for-all-50-states


Many of you might be more aware of what other states are doing than myself, but I found this really interesting.

It does SEEM that, even now with our two At-Large qualifiers, we have among the strictest qualifying procedures of the top 8 states by population, Ohio being 7th.

Of these eight states, California, New York, Pennsylvania, and Illinois have qualifying standards in addition to qualifying by place. The standards are usually made up of some kind of historical average of middle-placing marks at their state meet. Interesting note, New York allows individuals and relays to meet a qualifying standard throughout the season at qualifying meets, similar to our indoor season.

Texas, Florida, and North Carolina do not have any qualifying standards, but all do have at-large qualifiers in some form. They also have more divisions. Florida has twice the population of Ohio and only has 4 divisions, but they qualify 4 by place to the state meet, and then take the next 8 fastest times across the division. Texas has arguably the strictest standards now that Ohio does at-larges, with almost 3 times the population of Ohio, having 6 divisions, and only taking 1 At-Large per division, but they allow 3 individual entries per team. Georgia, slightly smaller in population than Ohio, has 8 divisions, and divides public and private.

Ohio was the only state among these that had previously not taken any At-Large qualifiers.
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Old 05-23-18, 11:30 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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Although I think we are straying form the original post, I like Mr. Slippery's second idea. I thnk he should write it up and make an official propoal to the OATCCC to set up a super division of the largest 100 schools (that offer track) and devide the other 3 divisions equitably.
I will sign it in support.
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Old 05-23-18, 11:51 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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RunnerAdespota,
Thanks for the link... Although it's outdated (2012) and ohio's info was incorrect it was very interesting.

Here are changes for the OHio info orpoints of notice.
1. Ohio does have wheelchair (seated) events and has since 2013
2. Florida may have more population, but Ohio has about 30% more schools
3. Ohio does have indoor track and have had an Indoor State Meet since 2005 or so.

Even so, I'm not sure we should care too much what ohter state do. FWIW, I have cousins who competed at State Meet in Illinois and West Virgina and Ohio's State Meet is much "better" thatn those IMO. More competitive, Better organized and prestidious I think.
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Old 05-23-18, 12:00 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
Fair enough. let's use a random school that has 40 students, which percentage-wise is roughly analogous to the 300 vs 1300 in D-I.

1 at +2, 1 at +1.5, and 3 at +1. Number 5 at this school is only a half deviation off #5 of the big D-III, which mirrors the difference of D-I. But again, there are a lot more bodies at this portion of the curve.
There is just no getting around the fact that having more bodies makes it easier, or more difficult, depending on your point of view. Statistical analysis cannot over come that. 900 is a lot bigger number than 150. As an individual track athlete, it is much easier, generally speaking, to compete against 150, than 900.
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Old 05-23-18, 12:02 PM
RunnerAdespota RunnerAdespota is offline
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Right, ENA. I'm not saying we should do what NY is doing or anything, and what works for them might not necessarily work best for us etc. But I did think it was interesting and worth noting that all these states try to give good performances a shot.

Also, I didn't use any of the info from the link, I went to each of the 8 states' organization and looked at how they qualified. I stumbled on milesplit's link after the fact. But I do like how it lists all 50.

Sidenote, I was also struck by how many of these states punish kids who withdraw from events after they qualify. Such a normal thing here in Ohio. Like, if I do a distance triple in these other states, but drop one of them at the state meet, I would be disqualified from all my events. Sheesh.

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