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  #1  
Old 07-02-18, 03:39 PM
claynation claynation is offline
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Will the Midwest Meet of Champions have an accurately measured course this year?

Or are they still going with the short course?
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  #2  
Old 07-02-18, 04:35 PM
Qualifer17 Qualifer17 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claynation View Post
Or are they still going with the short course?
Believe it or not, it was exactly a 5K. I ran the course twice two days after the race and found it to be exactly a 5K.
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Old 07-03-18, 01:14 AM
madman madman is offline
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"exactly" - what does that mean? Every measurement tool is accurate only to within a given tolerance when it is used with extreme care following a very precise procedure (http://fl.milesplit.com/articles/527...se-measurement).

Here's an interesting article by a professional surveyor who also happens to be a high school XC coach. The results aren't what you might expect.

http://fl.milesplit.com/articles/187...-consideration

If it was "exact" according to your gps watch, there's not much to discuss...
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Old 07-03-18, 05:54 AM
claynation claynation is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualifer17 View Post
Believe it or not, it was exactly a 5K. I ran the course twice two days after the race and found it to be exactly a 5K.
Multiple coaches wheeled it and confirmed it was 90-100m short.
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  #5  
Old 07-03-18, 08:15 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claynation View Post
Multiple coaches wheeled it and confirmed it was 90-100m short.
100m short = 2.0 % on a 5K course. At 15min 5K pace, that's 18 seconds shorter. At 18min pace, that's 21.6 seconds shorter.
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Old 07-03-18, 03:23 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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I wonder how many times I will post this? I laser measured it both times we ran there, using the straight line from turn to turn. Which is significantly more accurate than a wheel. Both times I found it to be in the neighborhood of 25-30 meters short. I have done some pretty extensive comparisons of measurements in my engineering class. Using a couple of wheels, the last range finder and a couple versions of GPS. My results largely agree with the findings in the article. In particular, the faster you travel with the wheel the greater the under measurement. In any event, using the data from the article, and my own calculations, if a coach measured the course to be 80 meters short then it probably is considerably closer to 5000 meters.

Think about this fact too, if the article is correct, then a lot of courses measured by conscientious coaches are probably not actually legal courses, since 5000 meters is the max allowable distance.

Of real note to me is that in spite of my measuring it almost the same distance each time the times from the OCC meet were considerably slower than the times from MMOC, which almost has to be a factor of conditions.

I am generally much less concerned with the absolute accuracy of a course than with it being consistent. If the course is the same year to year it is much easier to judge any given performance.

Finally, I believe MMOC is back to Bradley this year. But the district meet will be at Darby.
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Old 07-04-18, 01:32 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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i have a permanent course and over 20 years of measuring, having others measure....you get within 40 meters of 5k who cares.

most kids will run the course down the middle and not run tangents anyway.

as for GPS, if you measure a little short with it, its likely on since tangents will measure shortest distance while running the turns.
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  #8  
Old 07-04-18, 08:26 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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IMHO opinion, as an engineer, I am surprised that measuring wheels don't come with a "spiked" version of the wheel to utilize over non-paved surfaces. I think rubber nubs or miniature spikes every 6" or so around the hub would do wonders to improve the accuracy by providing a "non-slip" measurement.
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  #9  
Old 07-05-18, 06:58 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
IMHO opinion, as an engineer, I am surprised that measuring wheels don't come with a "spiked" version of the wheel to utilize over non-paved surfaces. I think rubber nubs or miniature spikes every 6" or so around the hub would do wonders to improve the accuracy by providing a "non-slip" measurement.


Thatís exactly what I thought Javman. So I tried making one. Actually three. It was worse, because it was inconsistently wrong. The knobs changed the distance depending on how hard the ground was. The only way to make the wheel more accurate is to go VERY slowly. My own sense is that you can test your wheel and figure out how much it undermeasures and just use that factor.
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Old 07-05-18, 08:44 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Thatís exactly what I thought Javman. So I tried making one. Actually three. It was worse, because it was inconsistently wrong. The knobs changed the distance depending on how hard the ground was. The only way to make the wheel more accurate is to go VERY slowly. My own sense is that you can test your wheel and figure out how much it undermeasures and just use that factor.
Hmmmm...it sounds like an opportunity for some R&D
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  #11  
Old 07-05-18, 08:56 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
Hmmmm...it sounds like an opportunity for some R&D

Yes. My current idea is to make a double wheeled measuring device. With the two wheels in line. Looking at high speed video showed that some of the slipping was across the surface, and some is the wheel coming off the ground. The two wheels may help with that.
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  #12  
Old 07-05-18, 09:18 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Yes. My current idea is to make a double wheeled measuring device. With the two wheels in line. Looking at high speed video showed that some of the slipping was across the surface, and some is the wheel coming off the ground. The two wheels may help with that.
Go for it!
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  #13  
Old 07-05-18, 09:28 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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I plan to. Gotta wait for the school year to start since most of my equipment is boxed up for the move to the new building.
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