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  #121  
Old 03-11-19, 09:45 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJuanDeMarco View Post
Do you see a problem with American players creating shots or shots for others? I don't.
In Ohio HS Basketball (which is the context of this argument)...absolutely. I'm not looking at this from the national or collegiate level.

And it's not because they are incapable. It's because:

1) Coaches have trained players for their terrible motion offenses to compete and save their jobs, and
2) The refs have allowed such a physical type of play to evolve that it's almost become impossible for them to execute anything without being shoved, held, bumped, or battered

If coaches focused on developing these skills (mostly in the off-season), it would get better. Games showcase your skills, the off-season builds them.

Last edited by OldSchoolPanther; 03-11-19 at 10:09 PM.
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  #122  
Old 03-11-19, 10:07 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is online now
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Another fascinating point I'd add is that a whole of what you see that's "motion" is just trickle down college offense. A lot of people around here run some John Beilein style stuff that's methodical. He's changed his system dramatically the last few years since they shortened the shot clock to compensate for having to go faster. Dribble drive (i.e. Calipari) principled stuff is pretty popular as well.

Point being, slapping 35-45 seconds on a shot clock isn't changing that for the vast majority as somebody at the college level probably popularized the same motion principles and patterns. People will by and large play the same way they do right now with a few late clock quick hitting actions added.

If you really want better skills, you need to make youth and travel ball more about practice and skill development and less about playing games. Europeans get this because skill trumps everything in soccer.



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  #123  
Old 03-11-19, 10:11 PM
DonJuanDeMarco DonJuanDeMarco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
In Ohio HS Basketball (which is the context of this argument)...absolutely. I'm not looking at this from the national or collegiate level.

And it's not because they are incapable. It's because:

1) Coaches have trained players for their terrible motion offenses to compete and save their jobs, and
2) The refs have allowed such a physical type of play to evolve that it's almost become impossible for them to execute anything without being shoved, held, bumped, or battered

If coaches focused on developing these skills, it would get better.
To determine that it's a problem, you have to look at it from a collegiate or national high school level. Are Ohio players less prepared for college than, say, New England players? Are Americans as a whole worse at the situations you described than their European counterparts? The link I posted earlier, in which our U17 team won a gold medal game against France by 43, suggests otherwise.
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  #124  
Old 03-11-19, 10:13 PM
DonJuanDeMarco DonJuanDeMarco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
If you really want better skills, you need to make youth and travel ball more about practice and skill development and less about playing games. Europeans get this because skill trumps everything in soccer.



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But why is the US still pumping out the most skilled players?
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  #125  
Old 03-11-19, 10:16 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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Why does it have to be compared nationally or collegiately?

I'm talking about OH HS Basketball. It's getting worse. I'm not saying they're not preparing kids for the next level (that's honestly not even a consideration to me), I'm saying the brand of basketball is garbage and causing both kids and spectators to lose interest at a worrisome level. It's hurting the OH high school game.
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  #126  
Old 03-11-19, 10:28 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJuanDeMarco View Post
But why is the US still pumping out the most skilled players?
Better athletic gene pool. The best pros are Americans that have elite basketball athleticism. Zion, anyone? There are few exceptions to that such as say Curry. Not many elite basketball athletes come from outside of the USA and Canada.

A few smaller European countries pump out NBA players at a much higher per capita rate. They're almost always post guys, but they come with far better all-around skills than the typical young American post prospect who's usually a raw athlete. Dirk, the Gasols, Jokic, etc. Not many Americans of that type of physical stature that play in space, pass, shoot, etc. in that mold.

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  #127  
Old 03-12-19, 12:26 AM
1 time 1 time is offline
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If you’re talking the best athletes, USA is far superior. If you’re talking fundamentally at a lot of high schools and lower levels, Europe’s are far superior. Their clubs at an early age teach the little things. God bless AAU, but it’s ruined many kids and the average kid never learned how to play the game.
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  #128  
Old 03-12-19, 12:28 AM
1 time 1 time is offline
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Old school: I agree. It’s really bad at 80% of the schools.
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  #129  
Old 03-12-19, 04:46 AM
xscoutsoc xscoutsoc is offline
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This is a ridiculous conversation.
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  #130  
Old 03-12-19, 05:57 AM
Talk some sense Talk some sense is offline
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Apples to apples

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 time View Post
If youíre talking the best athletes, USA is far superior. If youíre talking fundamentally at a lot of high schools and lower levels, Europeís are far superior. Their clubs at an early age teach the little things. God bless AAU, but itís ruined many kids and the average kid never learned how to play the game.
How many local high school basketball games have you seen in Europe? I've seen some and it's pitiful. If you want to compare the top kids who have been scooped up by academies to run of the mill Ohio high schools teams, then you're just being disingenuous to make a far flung point about a shot clock. C'mon man.
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  #131  
Old 03-12-19, 06:18 AM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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Originally Posted by Vike16 View Post

All I'm saying is you still can slow the game down for your team's benefits to win the game with a shot clock. The shot clock will not ruin high school basketball, or make it perfect like some poster on this thread think.

You should test it in summer basketball for a 2 years and see the results

Then if OHSAA and NFHS(or whatever they are called) wants to go with a shot clock, they should give every school district 3 or 4 years to install shot clocks and find people to run them. The shot clock is not alien technology and the world will not end if Ohio high school basketball has a shot clock
Why is European basketball even brought up. This is truest statement on the Ohio shot clock debate ever. Just saying
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  #132  
Old 03-12-19, 06:47 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Summer basketball won't tell you much. Basically every team is trying to score and rebound in the summer. They are working on team connectivity and fluidity. It is the teams that are guard based, that really gain from a ball control type of game.

These teams get outrebounded but make up for it with multiple passes to rotate and tire the defense and draw the defense out to keep the game close until the fourth quarter, then hope for the best.

In college you recruit for the shot clock. You make sure to have one or two big bodies under the basket, a kid or two who can create off the dribble, a pure shooter for those possessions that require a deep three. In high school you get what comes in the door. Why should those very few programs, most all of them being private Catholic schools, get the advantage of a shot clock and the ability to recruit the athletes needed to play that style of game?

Over the years many of my favorite games have been games with huge contrast of styles. If there were a shot clock every team would know they would be given the opportunity to get the ball back in a few seconds from a missed rebound.

Watch a college game and if the ball is on the far right side of the court with a second or two left on the shot clock the far left side goes to paint getting ready for the shot they know has to be taken.

Keep it as it is, allow coaches to scheme more and get creative.
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  #133  
Old 03-12-19, 08:19 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vike16 View Post
Why is European basketball even brought up. This is truest statement on the Ohio shot clock debate ever. Just saying
You quoted yourself? LOL. Ok.
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  #134  
Old 03-12-19, 09:25 AM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
Summer basketball won't tell you much. Basically every team is trying to score and rebound in the summer. They are working on team connectivity and fluidity. It is the teams that are guard based, that really gain from a ball control type of game.

These teams get outrebounded but make up for it with multiple passes to rotate and tire the defense and draw the defense out to keep the game close until the fourth quarter, then hope for the best.

In college you recruit for the shot clock. You make sure to have one or two big bodies under the basket, a kid or two who can create off the dribble, a pure shooter for those possessions that require a deep three. In high school you get what comes in the door. Why should those very few programs, most all of them being private Catholic schools, get the advantage of a shot clock and the ability to recruit the athletes needed to play that style of game?

Over the years many of my favorite games have been games with huge contrast of styles. If there were a shot clock every team would know they would be given the opportunity to get the ball back in a few seconds from a missed rebound.

Watch a college game and if the ball is on the far right side of the court with a second or two left on the shot clock the far left side goes to paint getting ready for the shot they know has to be taken.

Keep it as it is, allow coaches to scheme more and get creative.
Any basketball players can improve their skills. Simply being athletic doesn't make you a better basketball player.

There needs to be more focus on skill development (especially in high school where most schools are simply playing with the kids that go to school there). Having a game using a shot clock requires those skills to be taught. The absence of a shot clock puts too little emphasis on skill development and more emphasis on systems.

That's the argument. If you're up for increasing the skills of the game and creating a better brand, then you're for the shot clock.

It's not something that would happen overnight. Coaches and programs would have to adapt to new training and it's benefits would be seem over the long-term. But it's the best way to go to improve the Ohio high school game. Most coaches don't want it because they know it would require change on their part.
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  #135  
Old 03-12-19, 09:47 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vike16 View Post
So teams should get out in the summer and work hard to defend keep away ball. Ok alrighty then
they should learn how to steal the ball, interupt the flow, create turn-overs. Yes go figure, they should be taught and have opportunity to learn a very important compenent of sports, their opponents are going to try and win using the rules that favor them.

Yes I get the everyone gets a trophy mentality (or is it kobiashi maru), if you can't win, change the rules. But that is not preparing them for anything real.

I watched a game, final score 31-30. nearly every play by either team had someone drive into the paint. If the shot wasn't there, their players were taught to be wise enough to not wish for a miracle, take control by bringing the ball back out, setting up another attack. The defenses and offenses were evenly matched (like most wars, most economic battles, most businesses) and it was a great game to watch if you knew what you were watching.
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  #136  
Old 03-12-19, 09:59 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
Any basketball players can improve their skills. Simply being athletic doesn't make you a better basketball player.

There needs to be more focus on skill development (especially in high school where most schools are simply playing with the kids that go to school there). Having a game using a shot clock requires those skills to be taught. The absence of a shot clock puts too little emphasis on skill development and more emphasis on systems.

That's the argument. If you're up for increasing the skills of the game and creating a better brand, then you're for the shot clock.

It's not something that would happen overnight. Coaches and programs would have to adapt to new training and it's benefits would be seem over the long-term. But it's the best way to go to improve the Ohio high school game. Most coaches don't want it because they know it would require change on their part.
Some schools and players don't have the skills to compete with other teams. No matter how hard I work, I can't beat LeBron. A shot clock won't help.

So they have to use strategies to help negate the other team's talent. If that means slowing the game down and even holding the ball for a time, then so be it. A shot clock takes that strategy away from a team. I don't like that.

If a team that is getting the ball held against them doesn't like that...go guard them.
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  #137  
Old 03-12-19, 10:15 AM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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Not everyone can come in first place. Sometimes, teams are better. It's also OK to lose. It's a great teacher.
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  #138  
Old 03-12-19, 11:16 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
Not everyone can come in first place. Sometimes, teams are better. It's also OK to lose. It's a great teacher.
You're right. And if I beat you using a strategy that takes you out of your normal playing style please remember that.
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  #139  
Old 03-12-19, 12:19 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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I don't think OHSAA should chose one style of play over another. Teams should be able to play, or at least play against, several styles of basketball in a tournament.
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  #140  
Old 03-12-19, 12:43 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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A shot clock doesn't limit playing style, it limits stalling and refusing to teach and use real basketball skills. Big difference.

You can play a speed up or slow down game with a shot clock.

Last edited by OldSchoolPanther; 03-12-19 at 12:56 PM.
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  #141  
Old 03-12-19, 12:53 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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And if a team is stalling, there are things you can do to take them out of that type of a game plan. It becomes a question of which team can commit to and execute its game plan better. Look, I am not advocating the four corners offense. I much prefer the up tempo game plan. But that doesn't mean I believe that OHSAA should change its rules.
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  #142  
Old 03-12-19, 01:08 PM
Buckey Backer Buckey Backer is offline
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To those critiquing my European comment, just go look at how many Europeans have been selected in the NBA the past few years and how they are doing? I get it we are talking about high school basketball, but its all relevant in my opinion. Luka Doncic is what 19 years old and his game is absolutely phenomenal. He is going to be an all time great. He has been playing with NBA rules since he was 15 for his academy. Simply put, whether anybody wants to admit it or not, the Europeans are succeeding where White America isn't. Again, you can disagree with that all day, but at the end of the day, they are winning. How many Euros are in the league vs white Americans? I hate AAU basketball with a passion, but apparently college coaches don't. They want to see who can score. You can teach defense later. College coaches are scarse at high school basketball games nowadays and one of the many reasons is because the product isn't very good. I get that you can make an argument that "stall ball" works, but we all know that violates the spirit of the game. A shot clock would help. It might take some time for some programs to adapt and there might be some pain, but ultimately, a shot clock and arc will progress the game forward.
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  #143  
Old 03-12-19, 01:10 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
A shot clock doesn't limit playing style, it limits stalling and refusing to teach and use real basketball skills. Big difference.

You can play a speed up or slow down game with a shot clock.
But it does. If a team wants to be able to maintain possession for lets say to 2 minutes at a time, a shot clock eliminates that strategy.

And its not refusing teach "real" basketball skills. It's recognizing that my team's "real" basketball skills don't match up with the opponents skill level. Be it their speed, size, shooting, or whatever. So a good strategy is to try to adjust your style of play to make them adjust their style of play.

And let's be honest....its a handful of games each year, mostly in tournament, where this happens. You want to fix something that really isn't broken.
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  #144  
Old 03-12-19, 01:13 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckey Backer View Post
To those critiquing my European comment, just go look at how many Europeans have been selected in the NBA the past few years and how they are doing? I get it we are talking about high school basketball, but its all relevant in my opinion. Luka Doncic is what 19 years old and his game is absolutely phenomenal. He is going to be an all time great. He has been playing with NBA rules since he was 15 for his academy. Simply put, whether anybody wants to admit it or not, the Europeans are succeeding where White America isn't. Again, you can disagree with that all day, but at the end of the day, they are winning. I hate AAU basketball with a passion, but apparently college coaches don't. They want to see who can score. You can teach defense later. College coaches are scares at high school basketball games nowadays and one of the many reasons is because the product isn't exciting. I get that you can make an argument that "stall ball" works, but we all know that violates the spirit of the game. A shot clock would help. It might take some time for some programs to adapt and there might be some pain, but ultimately, a shot clock and arc will progress the game forward.
So Luka will be an all-time great. That's awesome. He is in the less than 1% of all basketball players in the world. My guess is, he would still be an all-time great had he grown up here in the states.

Using the best players in the world as a reason to change something that effects 99+% of the people that will never get to that level is beyond ridiculous.
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  #145  
Old 03-12-19, 01:16 PM
Buckey Backer Buckey Backer is offline
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Its beyond ridiculous that you cant see the reasoning!! Luka is just one of many the past few years. The trend isn't slowing down. Europeans are playing a better brand of basketball than white America. Prove me wrong!!! If the ultimate measure of success is making it to the NBA, then why isn't white America succeeding? Its ALL relevant!
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  #146  
Old 03-12-19, 01:22 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckey Backer View Post
Its beyond ridiculous that you cant see the reasoning!! Luka is just one of many the past few years. The trend isn't slowing down. Europeans are playing a better brand of basketball than white America. Prove me wrong!!! If the ultimate measure of success is making it to the NBA, then why isn't white America succeeding? Its ALL relevant!
The ultimate measure isn't the NBA. Top players would be top players regardless of a shot clock. It's silly to think the shot clock is what caused them to be great.
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  #147  
Old 03-12-19, 01:27 PM
Buckey Backer Buckey Backer is offline
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Its crazy that you cant see that the inclusion of a shot clock changes the culture and development of players! How can you not see that? At the beginning of this NBA season, the league was 30% white players. Of that 30%, only 6% were White Americans. That means 24% of the leagues white players are foreign born. If that doesn't tell you something than i don't know what will. If we have the "best" system, then why isn't White American succeeding vs Europeans? I'm still waiting for an logical answer?
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  #148  
Old 03-12-19, 01:29 PM
Buckey Backer Buckey Backer is offline
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Oh and the ultimate measure of success is the NBA. Its the pinnacle of the profession which tells you were aren't developing players in white America like we should. Period! Oh well Johnny, you played hard!
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  #149  
Old 03-12-19, 01:37 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckey Backer View Post
Oh and the ultimate measure of success is the NBA. Its the pinnacle of the profession which tells you were aren't developing players in white America like we should. Period! Oh well Johnny, you played hard!
The ultimate measure of success for Ohio HS basketball is the NBA? 97% of HS players won't play beyond HS. But yea, lets make the highest level possible the ultimate measure of success.

And what's with all the white America stuff? That's a little racist.
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  #150  
Old 03-12-19, 01:39 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Thumbs up

There are roughly 550,000 High School Basketball players (boys) participating...

The odds of moving up to higher levels are...

College 17:1
NCAA D1 99:1
NBA 1860:1

It's not the job of a High School Basketball Coach or program to "develop" players. It's their job to teach them teamwork and sportsmanship while incorporating their methods and strategies that they believe (they were hired for this) will allow the teams to succeed. If their methods are in conflict with what you feel should be taught, throw your hat in the ring an apply for the job when it comes open. (I won't hold my breath)

It's not the job of High School Basketball to entertain you. That's for the NBA and NCAA as they are big businesses and rely on butts in the seats and TV ratings.

Relax and enjoy a bunch of kids competing while they are kids......playing a game....using rules conducive for kids who arent's going to play beyond the HS level. (94%+)
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