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  #91  
Old 03-10-19, 01:42 AM
Matt Goeller Matt Goeller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
It's incredible what is more often than not allowed defensively. In just the two evening games I lost track of how many rugby style contact plays I saw that didn't even resemble legitimate basketball plays.

I'm not as familiar with Lakota East's personnel, but I thought that what was allowed definitely had a neutralizing effect on the ball skill advantage that Fairmont's PG has against most defenders. Between his first half foul trouble and the constant hand checking and riding, he didn't seem to get much going until late to finish with 10 points, well below his season average. I'm still having a hard time believing the final score ended up as high as 50-36.

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do not disagree, but i think he is a little banged up as well. hamstring maybe? his first step lacked its usual explosiveness in the last 2 games.
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  #92  
Old 03-10-19, 06:51 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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No shot clock gives smaller, less athletic and less talented teams a punchers chance to win. These teams cannot get into a track meet with these top teams because they will lose by 50. They need to grind it out, drag the game out, frustrate their opponent and hope to capitalize on the limited opportunities they get. It takes discipline and skill to play the slow down style as well. Like the old saying goes - there are many ways to skin a cat.

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  #93  
Old 03-10-19, 04:39 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
No shot clock gives smaller, less athletic and less talented teams a punchers chance to win. These teams cannot get into a track meet with these top teams because they will lose by 50. They need to grind it out, drag the game out, frustrate their opponent and hope to capitalize on the limited opportunities they get. It takes discipline and skill to play the slow down style as well. Like the old saying goes - there are many ways to skin a cat.
Agree 100%.

It's apart of HS basketball and has been apart of the sport for 100+ years. Those that are proponents of the shot clock don't want to "add" anything to the sport. Their teams already play the style that they are advocating. They just want to take away from other teams that are playing a different style of team basketball.

I watched Tallmadge/Buchtel last night. There is no way that Tallmadge could have played stall ball against Buchtel. They were too big, too fast, and too aggressive. If you don't like a team playing stall ball, get bigger, faster, and more aggressive. (OK, so that's not realistic but it's the same type of comments directed at the stall ball teams by shot clock proponents).
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  #94  
Old 03-10-19, 05:35 PM
Philos_Finest Philos_Finest is offline
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Not a fan of a high school shot clock at all.
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  #95  
Old 03-10-19, 11:54 PM
1 time 1 time is offline
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Zero support of shot clock. If that happens, they’ll have a running clock in the regular season
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  #96  
Old 03-11-19, 10:55 AM
Carl Rick Carl Rick is offline
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90% of shot clock debate is about the team on offense. What about the defense?
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  #97  
Old 03-11-19, 11:14 AM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Agree 100%.

It's apart of HS basketball and has been apart of the sport for 100+ years. Those that are proponents of the shot clock don't want to "add" anything to the sport. Their teams already play the style that they are advocating. They just want to take away from other teams that are playing a different style of team basketball.

I watched Tallmadge/Buchtel last night. There is no way that Tallmadge could have played stall ball against Buchtel. They were too big, too fast, and too aggressive. If you don't like a team playing stall ball, get bigger, faster, and more aggressive. (OK, so that's not realistic but it's the same type of comments directed at the stall ball teams by shot clock proponents).
You still can slow the game down with a shot clock. NCAA teams do it all the time. I know stall ball has been apart of high school basketball, but a team should not be aloud to hold the ball for minutes on one possession. I know it doesn't happen every game, but it still shouldn't at all imho. My point is the shot clock will not make that much of a difference on scoring, or even slowing the game down to benefit a team. It will stop teams from playing keep away for minutes on one possession
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  #98  
Old 03-11-19, 11:16 AM
coachablekid coachablekid is offline
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I don't think so, but could make games more interesting always giving a team a chance. But however you might see more blowouts and you don't want to see that.
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  #99  
Old 03-11-19, 11:16 AM
Buckey Backer Buckey Backer is offline
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Yes it needs a shot clock! Basketball needs to evolve. 15 year old kids in Europe are playing with NBA rules. If they can do it, so can we. There is a reason why there are more and more white Europeans in the NBA every year and the reason is simple. They are taught to score in Europe. Not all, but a lot of predominantly white schools in America are teaching kids how to run offenses that are centered around passing and ball control. It does nothing for the growth of the game. If the USA doesn't adapt its high school basketball, the faster the rest of the world is catching up. While we are at it, can we please get an Arc underneath the hoop too?
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  #100  
Old 03-11-19, 11:30 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vike16 View Post
. My point is the shot clock will not make that much of a difference on scoring, or even slowing the game down to benefit a team. It will stop teams from playing keep away for minutes on one possession
Why is keeping the ball from your opponent a bad thing?

And did I miss something but can't the defense try to take the ball from the opponent?
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  #101  
Old 03-11-19, 11:39 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckey Backer View Post
. If the USA doesn't adapt its high school basketball, the faster the rest of the world is catching up.
What does the rest of the world have to do with High School (and lower levels) Basketball in the United States?
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  #102  
Old 03-11-19, 11:44 AM
trojandave trojandave is offline
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Absolutely yes in favor of a shot clock. Teams with inferior scoring ability resort to this kind of tactic. Memo to those teams......get out in the summer and work on your game......specifically how to score!! A shot clock won't totally eliminate the underdog either.

There's already a play clock in football......it can work in basketball too.....and it is financially doable.....schools spend tons of money on hanging conference championship banners all over their gyms. There should be enough money for a shot clock (one at each end of the court). A few states already have it, and it's time Ohio moved the game forward.

I also agree that there should be an arc for blocking and charging......it would make that call so much easier for officials.
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  #103  
Old 03-11-19, 11:53 AM
Tesoro Tesoro is offline
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No
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  #104  
Old 03-11-19, 11:57 AM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Why is keeping the ball from your opponent a bad thing?

And did I miss something but can't the defense try to take the ball from the opponent?

Keep away is not basketball, and it's literally not even trying to score the ball imho.

So you actually want to watch a team play keep away?

All I'm saying is you still can slow the game down for your team's benefits to win the game with a shot clock. The shot clock will not ruin high school basketball, or make it perfect like some poster on this thread think.

You should test it in summer basketball for a 2 years and see the results

Then if OHSAA and NFHS(or whatever they are called) wants to go with a shot clock, they should give every school district 3 or 4 years to install shot clocks and find people to run them. The shot clock is not alien technology and the world will not end if Ohio high school basketball has a shot clock
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  #105  
Old 03-11-19, 11:59 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trojandave View Post

There's already a play clock in football......it can work in basketball too.....

I also agree that there should be an arc for blocking and charging......it would make that call so much easier for officials.
In football, the ball is dead while the play clock is running. The opponent has no ability to take possession of ball....

Big difference
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  #106  
Old 03-11-19, 12:26 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckey Backer View Post
Yes it needs a shot clock! Basketball needs to evolve. 15 year old kids in Europe are playing with NBA rules. If they can do it, so can we. There is a reason why there are more and more white Europeans in the NBA every year and the reason is simple. They are taught to score in Europe. Not all, but a lot of predominantly white schools in America are teaching kids how to run offenses that are centered around passing and ball control. It does nothing for the growth of the game. If the USA doesn't adapt its high school basketball, the faster the rest of the world is catching up. While we are at it, can we please get an Arc underneath the hoop too?
I think that is a greater indictment of AAU basketball. Ironically, the shot clock will make HS basketball more like AAU...which is an inferior form of basketball.

Also, I'm not concerned with the number of kids making the NBA out of HS. Instead, I'm worried about how many graduate HS. Afterall, HS sports is an extension of the classroom.
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  #107  
Old 03-11-19, 12:40 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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What would have happened had there been a shot clock in the SVSM game ? The opposing team would have been blown out of the gym. Playing stall ball was their only option.

I dont buy getting into the gym and learn to score theory either. Like doing that would shrink the insurmountable talent gap between the two squads. You know what shrinks the gap ? Taking the air out of the ball.

There is also a flip side to this. While one team is playing stall ball - what is the other team doing ? Standing around ? Nothing says you cant press and trap and force the action - it takes two to tango. I'm sure SVSM has the athletes to get after it on defense. It sounds like they chose to play that style of ball right along with their opponent.

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  #108  
Old 03-11-19, 01:31 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is online now
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An awful lot of you seem to be ignoring entirely that the defense can utilize a variety of tactics to limit the other team's ability to stall and to speed the game up.

Stalling is not easy when the other team makes an effort to pressure and trap the ball, especially when it's a team with better talent.

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  #109  
Old 03-11-19, 01:37 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vike16 View Post
Keep away is not basketball, and it's literally not even trying to score the ball imho.

So you actually want to watch a team play keep away?

All I'm saying is you still can slow the game down for your team's benefits to win the game with a shot clock. The shot clock will not ruin high school basketball, or make it perfect like some poster on this thread think.

You should test it in summer basketball for a 2 years and see the results

Then if OHSAA and NFHS(or whatever they are called) wants to go with a shot clock, they should give every school district 3 or 4 years to install shot clocks and find people to run them. The shot clock is not alien technology and the world will not end if Ohio high school basketball has a shot clock
First, I don't buy the $$$ end of the argument for no shot clock. I used to, but now I see Athletic Departments find a way to get all kinds of equipment/apparatus funded and this would be no different.

As far as "not trying to score"..... that again comes back to people not liking a style of play. (and it's extremely rare that this happens) Personally when I'm officiating, I could care less whether or not a clock is being used. On a personal level however, I can't stand what the NBA has become and more recently what the NCAA has become. Throw it or dribble it around the perimeter and chuck up a three....... Hell, in the Cincinnati/Houston game yesterday I watched a 6'11" player catch one at the rim unguarded and instead of dunking the ball, he passed it to the wing for a 3 (which missed).....

The HS game isn't the college game, the European game, or the professional game.... It's high school kids participating..... There's a beauty in that alone.
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  #110  
Old 03-11-19, 02:11 PM
clevfan clevfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
An awful lot of you seem to be ignoring entirely that the defense can utilize a variety of tactics to limit the other team's ability to stall and to speed the game up.

Stalling is not easy when the other team makes an effort to pressure and trap the ball, especially when it's a team with better talent.

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Yep. Especially when we're talking about the defense of a team that is very well-conditioned physically. You can see how the argument of "practice harder in the summer and you'll be good enough not to have to stall" can be turned around -- have your athletes in top physical shape, and teams won't be able to use a stall strategy successfully against you.

Really good arguments on both sides here, though.
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  #111  
Old 03-11-19, 02:33 PM
DonJuanDeMarco DonJuanDeMarco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckey Backer View Post
Yes it needs a shot clock! Basketball needs to evolve. 15 year old kids in Europe are playing with NBA rules. If they can do it, so can we. There is a reason why there are more and more white Europeans in the NBA every year and the reason is simple. They are taught to score in Europe. Not all, but a lot of predominantly white schools in America are teaching kids how to run offenses that are centered around passing and ball control. It does nothing for the growth of the game. If the USA doesn't adapt its high school basketball, the faster the rest of the world is catching up. While we are at it, can we please get an Arc underneath the hoop too?
How will we ever compete with Europe?
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  #112  
Old 03-11-19, 03:29 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trojandave View Post
Absolutely yes in favor of a shot clock. Teams with inferior scoring ability resort to this kind of tactic. Memo to those teams......get out in the summer and work on your game......specifically how to score!!

Teams with inferior defensive ability resort to this kind of tactic. Memo to those teams.....get out in the summer and work on your game.....specifically how to defend!!
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  #113  
Old 03-11-19, 03:58 PM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Teams with inferior defensive ability resort to this kind of tactic. Memo to those teams.....get out in the summer and work on your game.....specifically how to defend!!
So teams should get out in the summer and work hard to defend keep away ball. Ok alrighty then
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  #114  
Old 03-11-19, 04:11 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clevfan View Post
Yep. Especially when we're talking about the defense of a team that is very well-conditioned physically. You can see how the argument of "practice harder in the summer and you'll be good enough not to have to stall" can be turned around -- have your athletes in top physical shape, and teams won't be able to use a stall strategy successfully against you.



Really good arguments on both sides here, though.
Outside of the occasional two minute end of quarter tournament possession, I've only seen this tried as a full game strategy against vastly superior teams, usually during the regular season.

Seriously, if you have 3-4 guys (or more) that are better than everyone on the other team you should be able to scramble them out of that strategy, and there's no excuse not to be able to. If the pace is slow and you score, press in some fashion to speed them up. If somebody tries to clock it halfway through the quarter and holds the ball at half-court run and jump in the half-court or use the stall to switch to a zone trap. Almost everyone has some combination of these things in their defensive toolkit.

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  #115  
Old 03-11-19, 05:15 PM
Carl Rick Carl Rick is offline
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The shot clock is not a significant factor in the development of overseas players.
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  #116  
Old 03-11-19, 07:20 PM
ndforever1967 ndforever1967 is offline
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How about a compromise?

A 50 or 60 second shot clock? It would not interfere with a typical offensive flow of a high school game, but would eliminate teams playing keep away for extended periods of time.
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  #117  
Old 03-11-19, 09:10 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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How about no? Just play D and force the action if you want the ball back.
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  #118  
Old 03-11-19, 09:16 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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Originally Posted by Carl Rick View Post
The shot clock is not a significant factor in the development of overseas players.
But offensive play making skills are (shooting in traffic, creating own shot off dribble, creating shots for others off of penetration using dribble drive). These type of skills are imperative in games with a shot clock.

It creates a better player and creates a better game. Stall ball and scripted motion with orders not to shoot does the opposite. It's terrible for the game and the development of basketball skill...and it is rearing its ugly head more and more each year.
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  #119  
Old 03-11-19, 09:38 PM
DonJuanDeMarco DonJuanDeMarco is offline
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Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
But offensive play making skills are (shooting in traffic, creating own shot off dribble, creating shots for others off of penetration using dribble drive). These type of skills are imperative in games with a shot clock.

It creates a better player and creates a better game. Stall ball and scripted motion with orders not to shoot does the opposite. It's terrible for the game and the development of basketball skill...and it is rearing its ugly head more and more each year.
Do you see a problem with American players creating shots or shots for others? I don't. High school basketball is high school basketball. It doesn't need to be college basketball. It's not like players have no idea what to do once they get to college.
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  #120  
Old 03-11-19, 09:39 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is online now
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I'd argue that shot clock usage has very little to do with the development of the youth European player. They are far more focused on developing skills and whole, position less players at the youth ages. We play excessive games and tournaments for meaningless trophies at 10 years old. The European soccer style academy/club model whoops the American AAU model at developing skills.

Very different philosophy in general. I usually hear of it being a "soccer-esque" game over there that's more free flowing and unscripted. Here many subscribe to scripting play-by-play as in football. I don't think any of these things are a coincidence, and they all have to do with culture. The average paying American youth travel parent wants shiny objects for their money regardless of their kid's actual development.


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