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  #61  
Old 03-09-19, 12:52 PM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chop Stix View Post
I was a hard no until I moved to NY and watched how a shot clock transformed the HS game there. Ohio is typically behind the times by 5-10 years with regards to the rest of the country so I wont hold my breath for one here.
Thank you for saying this
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  #62  
Old 03-09-19, 12:55 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Vike16 View Post
Thank you for saying this
And thank you for saying this....

Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
You do realize that only eight states have the shot clock, right? So how is Ohio behind “the rest of the country” exactly?
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  #63  
Old 03-09-19, 01:05 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
That is the exception and not the norm, and it's why I feel the shot clock is a solution in search of a problem. Mentioned above was the Dunbar/Fenwick tournament game from last year where Dunbar held the ball for a large chunk of the 3rd quarter against a zone defense. Fenwick must have been fine with that outcome, because they sat back and allowed them to do it.

In this part of the state, I can't recall any other higher profile tournament games from last year where that occurred, and haven't heard of any so far this year where that occurred. It is an extreme outlier.

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And it almost paid off for Fenwick. If I remember right, a missed free throw or two at the end for Fenwick almost flipped the results.
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  #64  
Old 03-09-19, 01:13 PM
Tardis Tardis is offline
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As a compromise, would a shot clock similar to what they have in Lacrosse be of any benefit. In Lacrosse, there is not a continous shot clock but if the referee deems the team in possession of the ball is not actively trying to score while the other team is actively defending, the referee can signal for a shot clock to begin.
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  #65  
Old 03-09-19, 01:32 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tardis View Post
As a compromise, would a shot clock similar to what they have in Lacrosse be of any benefit. In Lacrosse, there is not a continous shot clock but if the referee deems the team in possession of the ball is not actively trying to score while the other team is actively defending, the referee can signal for a shot clock to begin.
Something similar was in effect for a short period of time until it was eliminated prior to the 1991-1992 season. It was the "lack of action rule"...

It forced teams who were behind to play an aggressive defense. (if an offensive player was outside the 28ft hash mark, the defender had to come out and defend him). It forced teams who were ahead to penetrate that 28ft line.... teams would be ordered by the officials to "Play". After that initial warning a Technical Foul would be assessed for subsequent violations.

It was a terrible rule and was mercifully eliminated when the coach's associations banded together and pushed it out the door.
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  #66  
Old 03-09-19, 01:52 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
There are two major factors in the game right now.
1. Coaches who micromanage the game. Every possession is treated as precious and we have to take as much time as possible to make sure every one is perfect. They're not stalling or playing slow down, they're trying to have kids be perfect every time.

2. Officiating. The game is brutal, hand to hand combat and in the tournament it gets even worse. A team of skilled basketball players can get taken down by a team of physical athletes. There's contact on every shot. Posting up becomes the battle of the strongest. Turn it into a brawl and we can win a 38-36 game.

Until the game is cleaned up physically and coaches let their kids just play, the game will continue to be ugly. A shot clock will have no effect.
This is a very keen observation. A shot clock can help #1. Not sure anything can help #2 except OHSAA intervention. The game has become rugby.

As for #1, there have been more and more coaches adopt this style for fear it is their only way to compete, and focus on that instead of developing real basketball skills to help kids in the long run.

It has absolutely hurt the product and is part of the reason offensive skills are so lacking and interest in HS Basketball has waned.
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  #67  
Old 03-09-19, 01:57 PM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post

As for #1, there have been more and more coaches adopt this style for fear it is their only way to compete, and focus on that instead of developing real basketball skills to help kids in the long run.

It has absolutely hurt the product and is part of the reason offensive skills are so lacking and interest in HS Basketball has waned.

Preach
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  #68  
Old 03-09-19, 02:03 PM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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I would just like to see it in summer basketball first. If the results are good are bad you will have a good outlook if it would work in the regular season. But I think both sides of the argument make great points
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  #69  
Old 03-09-19, 02:13 PM
ICALLITLIKEI ICALLITLIKEI is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
There are two major factors in the game right now.
1. Coaches who micromanage the game. Every possession is treated as precious and we have to take as much time as possible to make sure every one is perfect. They're not stalling or playing slow down, they're trying to have kids be perfect every time.

2. Officiating. The game is brutal, hand to hand combat and in the tournament it gets even worse. A team of skilled basketball players can get taken down by a team of physical athletes. There's contact on every shot. Posting up becomes the battle of the strongest. Turn it into a brawl and we can win a 38-36 game.

Until the game is cleaned up physically and coaches let their kids just play, the game will continue to be ugly. A shot clock will have no effect.

Not in total disagreement with the things you are saying but you are painting a picture that is not exactly consistent of the times now.

1. it is almost the opposite... The game will be come more reactionary because of the shot clock... quick hitters, quicker reads, etc... Coaches will have to coach differently...players will have to play more read and react, which is exactly how the game is supposed to be played. I have seen some brutal games but not consistent enough to agree with you. but your post has some merit

2. The game is officiated better now than before..are there deficiencies yes but not the picture you are painting.

And if you think it is brutal with 3 refs it was far worse with only 2 refs! Cmon Maaaan!

Players have to Play, Coaches have to Coach, refs have to referee... Fans need to cheer and support or grab a whistle or ref shirt and be a part of the solution.

The shot lock would help ... it is not the solution!
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  #70  
Old 03-09-19, 02:54 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICALLITLIKEI View Post
Not in total disagreement with the things you are saying but you are painting a picture that is not exactly consistent of the times now.

1. it is almost the opposite... The game will be come more reactionary because of the shot clock... quick hitters, quicker reads, etc... Coaches will have to coach differently...players will have to play more read and react, which is exactly how the game is supposed to be played. I have seen some brutal games but not consistent enough to agree with you. but your post has some merit

2. The game is officiated better now than before..are there deficiencies yes but not the picture you are painting.

And if you think it is brutal with 3 refs it was far worse with only 2 refs! Cmon Maaaan!

Players have to Play, Coaches have to Coach, refs have to referee... Fans need to cheer and support or grab a whistle or ref shirt and be a part of the solution.

The shot lock would help ... it is not the solution!
1. How long is the shot clock? 30 seconds? 45 seconds? Either is a LONG time. Most teams put up a shot before 30 seconds now. A shot clock will only tell coaches how long they have before they have to shoot. Unless it's around 20 seconds a shot clock won't change things.

2. Been watching games since the '70's and it's WAY more physical now than back then. And I can show you the game tapes to prove it. It gets more physical every year. In 1963 DSJ played Dayton Dunbar and the HALFTIME score was 62-50, final 105-91. I asked a guy who played in that game how they did it. He said back then if you touched a guy on defense it was a foul. Today there is not a possession where every offensive player doesn't have a hand, elbow, forearm or hip banging on them. I doubt you can find a basketball fan in this area who won't tell you the game is WAY too rough. And it's not the number of refs, it's how they call the game. 2 refs or 3 refs, they need to apply the rules of the game. Basketball is supposed to be a free flowing, skill game, not survival of the biggest and strongest.
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  #71  
Old 03-09-19, 03:00 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is online now
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It seems as if things that have been "points of emphasis" in recent years on defensive handsiness are rarely officiated as prescribed, whether if it's on a ball handler or in the post. This IMO has far bigger impact on game flow and game scores than stalling or excessively being methodical offensively.

I think especially at tournament time it gets out of hand at times. I'm of the belief that many an official is aware that team X might play six kids and team Y might play 7, and they want to avoid "influencing" the result by hurting one team or the other's shortened rotation with their calls. This usually seems evident in the post. True post players are increasingly rare, but it feels like every year I see one have a poor tournament game because they get mugged and hacked like crazy under the rim and the officials choose to swallow their whistles in favor of "allowing the kids to decide it". It very much becomes survival of the strongest.

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  #72  
Old 03-09-19, 05:24 PM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
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OK, so you put in a shot clock and teams are taking a lot of poor shots against a stronger team that doesn't miss many shots. Would that not cause the "running clock" to kick in sooner and shorten the game?
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  #73  
Old 03-09-19, 05:55 PM
Omar Omar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
1. How long is the shot clock? 30 seconds? 45 seconds? Either is a LONG time. Most teams put up a shot before 30 seconds now. A shot clock will only tell coaches how long they have before they have to shoot. Unless it's around 20 seconds a shot clock won't change things.

2. Been watching games since the '70's and it's WAY more physical now than back then. And I can show you the game tapes to prove it. It gets more physical every year. In 1963 DSJ played Dayton Dunbar and the HALFTIME score was 62-50, final 105-91. I asked a guy who played in that game how they did it. He said back then if you touched a guy on defense it was a foul. Today there is not a possession where every offensive player doesn't have a hand, elbow, forearm or hip banging on them. I doubt you can find a basketball fan in this area who won't tell you the game is WAY too rough. And it's not the number of refs, it's how they call the game. 2 refs or 3 refs, they need to apply the rules of the game. Basketball is supposed to be a free flowing, skill game, not survival of the biggest and strongest.
Also consider the psychological impact of knowing there’s a shot clock, this will push teams to initiate their Offense faster.
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  #74  
Old 03-09-19, 06:15 PM
cincyhoops cincyhoops is online now
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Also consider the psychological impact of knowing there’s a shot clock, this will push teams to initiate their Offense faster.
Yes. More teams would push the ball up the court instead of walk it up because they would want more time in the clock once they got across half court.
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  #75  
Old 03-09-19, 06:18 PM
cincyhoops cincyhoops is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
1. How long is the shot clock? 30 seconds? 45 seconds? Either is a LONG time. Most teams put up a shot before 30 seconds now. A shot clock will only tell coaches how long they have before they have to shoot. Unless it's around 20 seconds a shot clock won't change things.

2. Been watching games since the '70's and it's WAY more physical now than back then. And I can show you the game tapes to prove it. It gets more physical every year. In 1963 DSJ played Dayton Dunbar and the HALFTIME score was 62-50, final 105-91. I asked a guy who played in that game how they did it. He said back then if you touched a guy on defense it was a foul. Today there is not a possession where every offensive player doesn't have a hand, elbow, forearm or hip banging on them. I doubt you can find a basketball fan in this area who won't tell you the game is WAY too rough. And it's not the number of refs, it's how they call the game. 2 refs or 3 refs, they need to apply the rules of the game. Basketball is supposed to be a free flowing, skill game, not survival of the biggest and strongest.

It would not have an effect 90% of the time. But it would stop teams from holding the ball. And in the last few minutes of the game it would make teams still run offense and try to score when they are leading instead of playing keep away until they get fouled.

My question is... if it’s not needed then why did college adopt a shot clock?
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  #76  
Old 03-09-19, 06:51 PM
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MasonComet MasonComet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cincyhoops View Post
My question is... if it’s not needed then why did college adopt a shot clock?
College courts are 94 feet. High school courts have almost always been 84 feet or less until recently. Those extra five feet in the half court are very advantageous for teams that want to hold the ball or play "four-corner" offense, which is why the NCAA implemented it. At the high school level, a good defense can generally force the other team into a five-second violation, turnover, or make them run some semblance of an offense since there is less room for the offense to operate. Since players cannot just "hold" the ball anymore when guarded closely (five-second violation) or just dribble in one place when guarded closely (five-second violation), an additional rule for getting a shot off an X amount of time is just overkill. There are plenty of safeguards in place to keep a team from just "holding" the ball. If your defense hasn't been able to force the offense's hand with the current rules in place on an 84-foot court or less, well, I'm sorry your defense is so underdeveloped.

However, we are seeing many new high school gyms with 94-ft courts. Offenses that just want to mess around in the extra space have a much easier time playing keep away than they used to. At the University of Dayton tonight, my team tried to force Centerville to give up the ball when Centerville had a late lead, but with mixed results. It would have been interesting to see how those 2-3 possessions would have played out with a shot clock, but it was also interesting to see my team take risks to force turnovers they wouldn't have taken under normal circumstances. That actually added an element of excitement to the game that would not have existed had there been a shot clock.

The NCAA introduced the 45-second shot for the 1985–86 season. If the OSHAA ever introduces it, I would hope they ease into it like college did.
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  #77  
Old 03-09-19, 07:23 PM
buckeyes2003 buckeyes2003 is online now
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I’m here at the Fairmont/Lakota East game. Fairmont has held the ball for 2 minutes straight...
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  #78  
Old 03-09-19, 07:26 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is online now
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Maybe closer to 3 minutes. Pretty questionable strategy IMO as they seemed to have the momentum rolling after falling into a huge hole the first few minutes of the game.

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  #79  
Old 03-09-19, 10:23 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by cincyhoops View Post

My question is... if it’s not needed then why did college adopt a shot clock?
For the same reason the NBA went to it......

$$$$$
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  #80  
Old 03-09-19, 11:22 PM
cdub4 cdub4 is offline
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I always say that the first "A" in OHSAA stands for "athletic". It isn't the Ohio High School Strategic Association.

Not a fan of stall ball. I agree that IMO it is not in the spirit of basketball or athletics. It crosses the line. If your team isn't good enough to compete then practice more, lift some weights, work on your shot and handle, do some plyometrics, and become better basketball players. It is embarrassing.
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  #81  
Old 03-10-19, 12:11 AM
Curious One Curious One is offline
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Would have responded no until today! Move me to the yes column; 30-25? Play the damn game!
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  #82  
Old 03-10-19, 12:19 AM
Matt Goeller Matt Goeller is offline
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Originally Posted by buckeyes2003 View Post
I’m here at the Fairmont/Lakota East game. Fairmont has held the ball for 2 minutes straight...
which was solid coaching strategy. fairmont trailed by 4 and their best player had just gone to the bench with his 3 foul. by limiting the half to one possession, they removed the possibility of losing more ground in the final 2 minutes. it worked. they hit one of 2 free throws with 7 seconds left and trailed by 3 at the half.

Just one other reminder..high school athletics, unlike the professionals at the next two levels (IMO major college football and basketball and the nfl/nba ) are not played for the fans entertainment value. They exist for far more important reasons than for the entertainment dollars they generate. if you do not know those reasons then you are IMO watching the wrong level of competition.
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  #83  
Old 03-10-19, 12:26 AM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is online now
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After watching a D1 district finals double header tonight I'd have to double down on saying that uncalled excessive physicality plays a much greater role than stalling in killing game flow and limiting scoring the majority of the time.

Outside of the long stall possession at the end of the first half, Fairmont and Lakota East played a fairly regularly paced game until the end where LE tried some keep away while Fairmont tried to speed it up. For much of the game, scoring stalled out due to guys getting hammered around the rim and constantly hand checked and ridden dribbling on the perimeter. It was a very physical game with underwhelming foul totals until the last few minutes.

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  #84  
Old 03-10-19, 12:34 AM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is online now
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Great example: I watched one of Fairmont's two best players, a 1,000 point scorer, turn the corner off of a ball screen and get flat lined by a help defender who stepped up and dropped his shoulder. The ref didn't blow the whistle until the help defender took a dribble or two the other direction two seconds later.

The shoulder check/run through/tackle is just about the only thing that gets called in some of these district level (and beyond) games, occasionally looking reluctantly called as seen above. You want better flow and more points, clean up the contact so that kids with skills can actually create and finish.

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  #85  
Old 03-10-19, 12:40 AM
Matt Goeller Matt Goeller is offline
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Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
Great example: I watched one of Fairmont's two best players, a 1,000 point scorer, turn the corner off of a ball screen and get flat lined by a help defender who stepped up and dropped his shoulder. The ref didn't blow the whistle until the help defender took a dribble or two the other direction two seconds later.

The shoulder check/run through/tackle is just about the only thing that gets called in some of these district level (and beyond) games, occasionally looking reluctantly called as seen above. You want better flow and more points, clean up the contact so that kids with skills can actually create and finish.

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I love both of your last 2 posts. I watched all 4 games today. There is too much contact allowed and far too many charging fouls called.
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  #86  
Old 03-10-19, 12:44 AM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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I've been saying it for years, the level of physicality has turned the game into rugby. It's not basketball. It allows more skilled players to be neutralized by the style of play. It's out of control.
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  #87  
Old 03-10-19, 12:49 AM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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I think the StV/Copley score is a great example that no shot clock is needed.

A game that was supposed to be a blowout was a 1 point game late into the 4th quarter. What better example is there that the HS game is great as it is. Those looking for the shotclock want to focus on athleticism and forget about all the other beauty that exists in basketball.

Throwing together a bunch of athletes can be interesting basketball but great teamwork can be just as interesting. Long-live Hoosiers!!
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  #88  
Old 03-10-19, 12:51 AM
clevfan clevfan is offline
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Originally Posted by cdub4 View Post
I always say that the first "A" in OHSAA stands for "athletic". It isn't the Ohio High School Strategic Association.

Not a fan of stall ball. I agree that IMO it is not in the spirit of basketball or athletics. It crosses the line. If your team isn't good enough to compete then practice more, lift some weights, work on your shot and handle, do some plyometrics, and become better basketball players. It is embarrassing.
I'm not a "separate the publics and privates" guy -- at all. That said, doing plyomterics isn't going to help Copley be competitive with St. V's. Stall ball did. It's not a cheat code -- St. V's still got the W, and I doubt it will be an issue for them the rest of their run (watch out for Olmsted Falls, though -- how about their win?!?). I have no issues with the way the Catholic schools run their programs, but when I see St. Ed's winning their 18th district title in 23 years tonight, I want, especially as a Lakewood High guy, to beat them by absolutely any legal means necessary. Sometimes stall ball is an option in a case where, frankly, there aren't any other ones.
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  #89  
Old 03-10-19, 12:55 AM
FootsWalker FootsWalker is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I think the StV/Copley score is a great example that no shot clock is needed.

A game that was supposed to be a blowout was a 1 point game late into the 4th quarter. What better example is there that the HS game is great as it is. Those looking for the shotclock want to focus on athleticism and forget about all the other beauty that exists in basketball.

Throwing together a bunch of athletes can be interesting basketball but great teamwork can be just as interesting. Long-live Hoosiers!!
Don't know anything about the actual game but Toledo Start upset Whitmer 31-30 today, both teams that typically play in the 60s, so there was at least 1 other game where valuing each possession had an effect on the final score as well.
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  #90  
Old 03-10-19, 12:59 AM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is online now
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Originally Posted by Matt Goeller View Post
I love both of your last 2 posts. I watched all 4 games today. There is too much contact allowed and far too many charging fouls called.
It's incredible what is more often than not allowed defensively. In just the two evening games I lost track of how many rugby style contact plays I saw that didn't even resemble legitimate basketball plays.

I'm not as familiar with Lakota East's personnel, but I thought that what was allowed definitely had a neutralizing effect on the ball skill advantage that Fairmont's PG has against most defenders. Between his first half foul trouble and the constant hand checking and riding, he didn't seem to get much going until late to finish with 10 points, well below his season average. I'm still having a hard time believing the final score ended up as high as 50-36.

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