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  #31  
Old 03-08-19, 04:33 PM
Smalls Smalls is offline
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Back in my day.......there were only 2 refs on the floor. Use the 3rd ref to run the shot clock.

Would love to see a :45 second shot clock. That is plenty of time to get a good shot and if a team wants to slow the game down they still can, but not to a crawl.

If everyone is concerned about bad shots, then get rid of the 3 point line. There is only one Steph Curry in the NBA but 3 on every high school team taking step back fadeaway 3's with a hand in their face.

With most teams carrying 5 timeouts into the 4th quarter you don't even have to be that solid with the ball, get trapped 5 times, get bailed out by the coach 5 times.

A basketball game should look like a basketball game, not some ugly looking game of soccer field position keep away.
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  #32  
Old 03-08-19, 04:36 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auggie View Post
At least football has their own version of a shot clock, the play clock.
Perfect example. Can you imagine the measures coaches would take to delay and stall to make the game more "competitive" if there was no play clock in football? It would be a travesty. And stupid.

That's why all of this "well, they HAVE to do it to be able to compete with the powerhouses" holds no water. Basically, they're taking advantage of the lack of rule to simply not compete. Why even play the game then?

There's a reason these rules are put in place.
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  #33  
Old 03-08-19, 05:04 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Isn't the average possession already less than what the shot clock would be for HS anyway?

If you don't like "stall ball" don't go to those games. Most everyone knows which games or teams might play stall ball. There are certain types of movies I like and some I don't. I don't watch the styles I don't like.
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  #34  
Old 03-08-19, 05:06 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smalls View Post
Back in my day.......there were only 2 refs on the floor. Use the 3rd ref to run the shot clock.

Would love to see a :45 second shot clock. That is plenty of time to get a good shot and if a team wants to slow the game down they still can, but not to a crawl.

If everyone is concerned about bad shots, then get rid of the 3 point line. There is only one Steph Curry in the NBA but 3 on every high school team taking step back fadeaway 3's with a hand in their face.

With most teams carrying 5 timeouts into the 4th quarter you don't even have to be that solid with the ball, get trapped 5 times, get bailed out by the coach 5 times.

A basketball game should look like a basketball game, not some ugly looking game of soccer field position keep away.
2 refs? Then you would be on here complaining about bad calls because lack of a 3rd ref.
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  #35  
Old 03-08-19, 05:11 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auggie View Post
At least football has their own version of a shot clock, the play clock.

But then again from the technical side why can in football a play clock be no problem but in basketball we hear all these apologists say that realistically it would be too tough to pull off a shot clock? It really is a style debate and everything else is just window dressing.
Major differences from football to basketball:

- 10 games versus 22 games
- play clock can be kept on the field in football (most High Schools do this). It must be kept with electrical equipment in basketball.
- Football play clock forces teams to put the ball into play. Basketball, the clock runs only when the ball is in play.

The reality is that the 5 second call for inbounding the ball in basketball is the equivalent of the play clock in football.

The play clock in football gives the defense an opportunity to get the ball back. Basketball has that opportunity at all points in the game.
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  #36  
Old 03-08-19, 07:49 PM
ICALLITLIKEI ICALLITLIKEI is offline
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not sure why football is even in the discussion totally different!

but the shot clock would be great (35 secs IMO). it is all about logistics. staffing, operation, cost to locate clocks, refs trained, etc... not sure if it will make its way in with all of these factors to consider. some schools struggle to find people to help now.

It would be great for the high school game!

And the 3 point dude needs to stop. it has opened the floor up for offense to flow better... get over it!
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  #37  
Old 03-08-19, 08:05 PM
Matt Goeller Matt Goeller is offline
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please...never never never never never. do not ruin the game i love.
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  #38  
Old 03-08-19, 09:11 PM
Chop Stix Chop Stix is offline
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I was a hard no until I moved to NY and watched how a shot clock transformed the HS game there. Ohio is typically behind the times by 5-10 years with regards to the rest of the country so I wont hold my breath for one here.
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  #39  
Old 03-08-19, 09:56 PM
Smalls Smalls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICALLITLIKEI View Post
And the 3 point dude needs to stop. it has opened the floor up for offense to flow better... get over it!
I actually like the 3 point shot, someone made the point that a shot clock would create more bad shots and my argument is there are a whole lot of shots taken from 3 by god awful shooters and/or with little chance of going in so what is 3 or 4 more with a :45 second shot clock?

Better than watching a defensive team do everything right with the trap and the offensive team getting saved by the coach with 5 time outs.

Species of bad 3 point shots;

1. The 20 Dibbles between the legs pull up three 2. The running jumper three 3. The shoot it from the logo 4. Close relative of the shoot it from the volleyball line 5. The step back with a hand in the face 6. The Flick the shot with no follow through 7. The flail your legs to try and draw a foul 8. The who cares about form fall on the ground after every shot, shot 9. The shoot from your hip 10. The sling it from behind your head 11 And all time favorite the up 3 with under a minute with the ball, 3.

The team I follow shots 48% from 3 and has made 170+ 3's. So I mainly see those from the teams playing us.

Last edited by Smalls; 03-08-19 at 10:10 PM.
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  #40  
Old 03-08-19, 10:15 PM
Smalls Smalls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
2 refs? Then you would be on here complaining about bad calls because lack of a 3rd ref.
Not a big fan of the getting on the refs. They will make some good calls and miss some calls. Don't see much difference between 2 refs in AAU or 3 in high school. Results are the same.
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  #41  
Old 03-08-19, 11:06 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chop Stix View Post
I was a hard no until I moved to NY and watched how a shot clock transformed the HS game there. Ohio is typically behind the times by 5-10 years with regards to the rest of the country so I wont hold my breath for one here.
Do you have access to any stats? Did average scoring statewide go up after the shot clock? How many seconds is the shot clock? Are there more shots/game? Interested to see effects.

I saw a California HS game with a shot clock between two high level teams on tv several years ago. Yes, only one data point but that game had a lot of action but ended up with both teams in the 40's.
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  #42  
Old 03-08-19, 11:18 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is online now
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Yes we need it
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  #43  
Old 03-09-19, 12:46 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chop Stix View Post
I was a hard no until I moved to NY and watched how a shot clock transformed the HS game there. Ohio is typically behind the times by 5-10 years with regards to the rest of the country so I wont hold my breath for one here.
You do realize that only eight states have the shot clock, right? So how is Ohio behind “the rest of the country” exactly?
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  #44  
Old 03-09-19, 06:50 AM
doverbuck doverbuck is offline
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Nope,learn to play defense and get into passing lanes so you can steal the ball on your own.
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  #45  
Old 03-09-19, 09:35 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smalls View Post
Not a big fan of the getting on the refs. They will make some good calls and miss some calls. Don't see much difference between 2 refs in AAU or 3 in high school. Results are the same.
What results are the same?
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  #46  
Old 03-09-19, 09:44 AM
Omar Omar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Isn't the average possession already less than what the shot clock would be for HS anyway?

If you don't like "stall ball" don't go to those games. Most everyone knows which games or teams might play stall ball. There are certain types of movies I like and some I don't. I don't watch the styles I don't like.
The point is that style of play shouldn’t be an option. It’s a bad brand of basketball. There’s a difference bw putting in a shot clock to encourage offense and turning into AAU. A shot clock is a deterrent against this crappy Peach Basket, 4 Corner, Stall Ball type of basketball.
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  #47  
Old 03-09-19, 09:46 AM
Omar Omar is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
You do realize that only eight states have the shot clock, right? So how is Ohio behind “the rest of the country” exactly?
He just wanted to tell everyone he lives in NY.
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  #48  
Old 03-09-19, 10:00 AM
Basement Bias Basement Bias is offline
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I'd be for a 35 to 40 second shot clock in high school. I think you start implementing a 45 to 50 second clock in middle school so that kids will be accustomed to it. If schools youth programs institute it, it will be ugly but then a style will be set to improve it for the future.
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  #49  
Old 03-09-19, 10:03 AM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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I don't think a 45 second shot clock would really do anything to improve the flow of a normal game, and it wouldn't increase scoring. As is, virtually all possessions result in a shot or turnover within that time frame with the exception of tournament basketball where in a competitive game there may be a few possessions that last a minute or so. Anything beyond that, even in the tournament, is an extreme outlier and is more a testament of the defense's inability to speed the offense up or force a turnover.

All that this would result in early on is more bad shots in the lengthier possessions of a given game until coaches and players adjust to late clock offensive scenarios IMO.

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  #50  
Old 03-09-19, 10:06 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar View Post
The point is that style of play shouldn’t be an option. It’s a bad brand of basketball. There’s a difference bw putting in a shot clock to encourage offense and turning into AAU. A shot clock is a deterrent against this crappy Peach Basket, 4 Corner, Stall Ball type of basketball.
Who says it shouldn't be an option? You?

I watched Dunbar, typically a fast temp team, stand at midcourt and hold the ball for an entire quarter last year in the tournament against their opponent (Fenwick I think) who was sitting in a zone. It was an interesting game to watch.

The game before was a more run and gun type game. Also an interesting game to watch. I enjoyed them both.

I like the variety of styles in HS basketball.
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  #51  
Old 03-09-19, 10:33 AM
Basement Bias Basement Bias is offline
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Could the sport somehow interpret a rule like lacrosse has? Where the official initiates a shot clock/stall warning? When it's obvious the team is not making a scoring attempt to hit them with a timer or they have it keep the ball inside the arc? Just an idea.
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  #52  
Old 03-09-19, 10:44 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basement Bias View Post
I'd be for a 35 to 40 second shot clock in high school. I think you start implementing a 45 to 50 second clock in middle school so that kids will be accustomed to it. If schools youth programs institute it, it will be ugly but then a style will be set to improve it for the future.
You barely have people that know how to run the clocks now in middle school and youth. And you want to have them manage a shot clock too?

What could go wrong?
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  #53  
Old 03-09-19, 10:45 AM
Omar Omar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Who says it shouldn't be an option? You?

I watched Dunbar, typically a fast temp team, stand at midcourt and hold the ball for an entire quarter last year in the tournament against their opponent (Fenwick I think) who was sitting in a zone. It was an interesting game to watch.

The game before was a more run and gun type game. Also an interesting game to watch. I enjoyed them both.

I like the variety of styles in HS basketball.
It’s clearly a violation of the spirit of the sport. Basketball is meant to be free flowing and dynamic.
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  #54  
Old 03-09-19, 10:46 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
It’s clearly a violation of the spirit of the sport. Basketball is meant to be free flowing and dynamic.
I thought the spirit of the sport is to score more points than your opponent?
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  #55  
Old 03-09-19, 10:47 AM
Omar Omar is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
I thought the spirit of the sport is to score more points than your opponent?
Exactly, you’re supposed to score, not hold the ball.
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  #56  
Old 03-09-19, 10:53 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Exactly, you’re supposed to score, not hold the ball.
They do score. Just not the way you want. You know which games might be that way. Don't attend.
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  #57  
Old 03-09-19, 10:58 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
They do score. Just not the way you want. You know which games might be that way. Don't attend.
You know.....

It is really that simple.
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  #58  
Old 03-09-19, 11:59 AM
Omar Omar is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
They do score. Just not the way you want. You know which games might be that way. Don't attend.
The style of play doesn’t keep me from watching, bc I only follow one team. The point is there’s an infestation of this crappy brand of basketball. The Motion Offense is fine, there’s at least an intention to score, now you’ve got teams almost playing a game of keep away.
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  #59  
Old 03-09-19, 12:05 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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That is the exception and not the norm, and it's why I feel the shot clock is a solution in search of a problem. Mentioned above was the Dunbar/Fenwick tournament game from last year where Dunbar held the ball for a large chunk of the 3rd quarter against a zone defense. Fenwick must have been fine with that outcome, because they sat back and allowed them to do it.

In this part of the state, I can't recall any other higher profile tournament games from last year where that occurred, and haven't heard of any so far this year where that occurred. It is an extreme outlier.

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  #60  
Old 03-09-19, 12:20 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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There are two major factors in the game right now.
1. Coaches who micromanage the game. Every possession is treated as precious and we have to take as much time as possible to make sure every one is perfect. They're not stalling or playing slow down, they're trying to have kids be perfect every time.

2. Officiating. The game is brutal, hand to hand combat and in the tournament it gets even worse. A team of skilled basketball players can get taken down by a team of physical athletes. There's contact on every shot. Posting up becomes the battle of the strongest. Turn it into a brawl and we can win a 38-36 game.

Until the game is cleaned up physically and coaches let their kids just play, the game will continue to be ugly. A shot clock will have no effect.
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