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  #31  
Old 01-04-17, 02:55 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Originally Posted by 19AL63 View Post
I hate to be the family that makes 125,001.00 on their taxes. Reminds me of years a go a young single man man two dollars to much and it put him in another tax bracket and cost him 4 dollars in taxes. i can hear it now you paid me too much take a couple of dollars back.
That's not how tax brackets work. If he made $2 higher than a given tax bracket then only that $2 is taxed at the next highest rate.

Let's say he was single and had no deductions (or his taxable income was this):

If he made $91,152, that is $2 above the 25% bracket into the 28% bracket.

He would pay:
10% on his first $9275
15% on his money between $9275 and $37650
25% between $37650 and $91150
28% on anything over $91150.

If he made $91150 he would pay $18,558.75 in taxes (20.3607%).
If he made $91152 he would pay $18,559.31 in taxes (20.3608%). It cost him 56 cents, not $4.
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  #32  
Old 01-04-17, 03:43 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by jmog View Post
That's not how tax brackets work. If he made $2 higher than a given tax bracket then only that $2 is taxed at the next highest rate.

Let's say he was single and had no deductions (or his taxable income was this):

If he made $91,152, that is $2 above the 25% bracket into the 28% bracket.

He would pay:
10% on his first $9275
15% on his money between $9275 and $37650
25% between $37650 and $91150
28% on anything over $91150.

If he made $91150 he would pay $18,558.75 in taxes (20.3607%).
If he made $91152 he would pay $18,559.31 in taxes (20.3608%). It cost him 56 cents, not $4.
True, and yet not. There are various deductions and credits that don't just reach a limit as to how much you can deduct (like mortgage interest), but that are completely eliminated because of income. Things like energy conservation credits, education expense deductions, etc. that could easily wind up costing someone hundreds more dollars than the actual income that put them over the top.
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  #33  
Old 01-04-17, 04:48 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
True, and yet not. There are various deductions and credits that don't just reach a limit as to how much you can deduct (like mortgage interest), but that are completely eliminated because of income. Things like energy conservation credits, education expense deductions, etc. that could easily wind up costing someone hundreds more dollars than the actual income that put them over the top.
Notice I said taxable income which already takes into account which deductions are already in there or not.
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  #34  
Old 01-04-17, 06:00 PM
19AL63 19AL63 is offline
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What is being talked about is not tax rates , but free college tuition for families making less than 125,000 dollars.
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  #35  
Old 01-04-17, 07:04 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Sorry but not only did Cuomo go on an "elitist" rant
You're saying it (repeatedly) but you're not supporting it. Maybe you have a personal definition of "elitist" that you're using. He made no comment that anyone was more "elite" than any other. He simply talked about opportunities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
High school graduates with the skills to excel as "tradesmen/craftsmen" would be foolish to waste their time in college. The trades offer young people a viable and potentially lucrative living culminating in business ownership. ?
If they have those skills, why are you demanding they have a high school diploma? You're such an elitist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
As for the costs, NY state currently struggles under an oppressive tax burden. How would this program not add to that?

NY state has one of the highest standards of living. You'll find several states with the highest tax burden also on the lists of most livable. Apples and oranges. It's their money to invest. Businesses take risks all the time, he's proposing no less, that the state of NY invest in its product.

And I do notice you did not challenge what I posted this is really about. The money all goes into their own infrastructure. This is all in-house money spent on in-house citizens in order to retain in-house skills, instructional and research leadership. If it's done well (yeah I know, government) yes it could have benefits. What other infrastructure can you think of that attracts more outside money than post-secondary education? It brings in BILLIONS of overseas and out-of-state money. Of course they want to put their tax dollars there. By supplying it to potential students as opposed to you know, just handing it to the University, they are using basic business principles.

No, I don't agree with it (I don't have moral objection but I think there are better ways to accomplish this socialization) but asking tax payers for support is not "nonsense," it is the process required. This is no different than a CEO asking the board to support a venture. They can say "yes" or they can say "no" but they can't say anything, until asked.

Nothing to get worked up about.

Last edited by eastisbest; 01-04-17 at 07:34 PM.
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  #36  
Old 01-04-17, 09:00 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
You're saying it (repeatedly) but you're not supporting it. Maybe you have a personal definition of "elitist" that you're using. He made no comment that anyone was more "elite" than any other. He simply talked about opportunities.

You seem to be a bit "literal" today. Just because he doesn't mention the word "elite" doesn't mean his statement doesn't reek of "elitism". The idea that high school graduates need to go to college to be successful is rubbish. He called it a mandatory step.

If they have those skills, why are you demanding they have a high school diploma? You're such an elitist.

Stop with the deflection. A minimum standard of a high school education is appropriate. BTW, you sound a bit "elitist" in implying that tradesmen don't need at least a high school education.


NY state has one of the highest standards of living. You'll find several states with the highest tax burden also on the lists of most livable. Apples and oranges. It's their money to invest. Businesses take risks all the time, he's proposing no less, that the state of NY invest in its product.

Oh please enough with the "high standard of living" BS. People are fleeing that state in droves. As an aside, I grew up in Western NY and have a lot of friends across the whole state. They ALL complain about their tax burden and would argue with you about how "high" their SOL really is.

And I do notice you did not challenge what I posted this is really about. The money all goes into their own infrastructure. This is all in-house money spent on in-house citizens in order to retain in-house skills, instructional and research leadership. If it's done well (yeah I know, government) yes it could have benefits. What other infrastructure can you think of that attracts more outside money than post-secondary education? It brings in BILLIONS of overseas and out-of-state money. Of course they want to put their tax dollars there. By supplying it to potential students as opposed to you know, just handing it to the University, they are using basic business principles.

Are you seriously saying that if the tax payers of NY underwrite degrees in "cultural studies" or "critical race theory" or a dozen other goofy majors they're improving the states "infrastructure". Here's what will happen - thousands of New Yorker's who get useless degrees and can't find a decent job will stay in NY State and sponge off the tax payer while those that get useful degrees will not be able to find a job in NY State so they will leave and use their taxpayer funded educations improving the infrastructures in their new states.

No, I don't agree with it (I don't have moral objection but I think there are better ways to accomplish this socialization) but asking tax payers for support is not "nonsense," it is the process required. This is no different than a CEO asking the board to support a venture. They can say "yes" or they can say "no" but they can't say anything, until asked.

Nothing to get worked up about.
If I was a NY tax payer there is PLENTY to get worked up over!
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  #37  
Old 01-04-17, 09:50 PM
bigkat bigkat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19AL63 View Post
What is being talked about is not tax rates , but free college tuition for families making less than 125,000 dollars.
do the colleges know that they can't charge families one cent if they make less then $125,000......... i'm sure the liberal Profs will work for FREE to make this work.....
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  #38  
Old 01-05-17, 10:29 AM
19AL63 19AL63 is offline
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No they will charge the family that makes less than 125,000, it is just that the family will not pay the bill, but the tax payers of the state will pick up the tab and to school you go free! free! free!
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  #39  
Old 01-05-17, 11:30 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
If I was a NY tax payer there is PLENTY to get worked up over!
So why are you worked up? All he did was make the proposal, you don't think options should be presented to the public before being implemented?

It's a win-win for him. He funnels money to support a "business" that BRINGS IN BILLIONs of EXTERNAL dollars to the state of NY. He gets young people off his unemployment numbers, since they're in school. He keeps employed the blue collar, the white collar people that have their employment because of that infrastructure service supplied by the state.

AND you want the tax payer's of NY to be worked up because some fat radio entertainor doesn't want some small percentage of the applicants to learn about and reseach segments of American culture, ideology and history with which he doesn't socially or politically agree? You'd rather censure? Great idea.

Yeah, New York's tax rates would seem out of line, yet their business capital keeps increasing. For each individual to measure for themselves, which they can only do because he made this public.

Again, I don't agree it's the best way to fund this part of the infrastructure but I do agree with the process for enabling discussion.
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  #40  
Old 01-05-17, 11:44 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19AL63 View Post
No they will charge the family that makes less than 125,000, it is just that the family will not pay the bill, but the tax payers of the state will pick up the tab and to school you go free! free! free!
Yep, the kids of New York high schools are celebrating already. They can now coast into college without concern for graduating with debt, and no need to strive for grades to a aid in earning a scholly.

How far would New Yorks average ACT scores fall in short Order?
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  #41  
Old 01-05-17, 12:03 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
Yep, the kids of New York high schools are celebrating already. They can now coast into college without concern for graduating with debt, and no need to strive for grades to a aid in earning a scholly.

How far would New Yorks average ACT scores fall in short Order?
I hope someone actually tracks that.
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  #42  
Old 01-05-17, 12:04 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
Yep, the kids of New York high schools are celebrating already. They can now coast into college without concern for graduating with debt, and no need to strive for grades to a aid in earning a scholly.

How far would New Yorks average ACT scores fall in short Order?
Uh, maybe I missed something but they still have to be admitted into a university, which is largely based on academics.
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  #43  
Old 01-05-17, 12:16 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Uh, maybe I missed something but they still have to be admitted into a university, which is largely based on academics.
If you think that the lower level institutions are going to leave any money on the table, you are incredibly naive. Some more respected schools may even create "sub-franchises" to keep their achievement numbers strong and still scoop as much cash as possible.
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  #44  
Old 01-05-17, 12:22 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
If you think that the lower level institutions are going to leave any money on the table, you are incredibly naive. Some more respected schools may even create "sub-franchises" to keep their achievement numbers strong and still scoop as much cash as possible.
Well sure. But it's not like kids are going to get C's through high school, score a 900 on the SAT, 19 on the ACT and then get accepted into Ithaca, Syracuse, Vassar, NYU, etc. Even if they go to a branch that will still show up when applying for jobs.
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  #45  
Old 01-05-17, 01:16 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Uh, maybe I missed something but they still have to be admitted into a university, which is largely based on academics.
There are a lot of factors beyond academics that can get a kid admitted to college, especially the state schools. Standards have been shown to be pretty elastic in pursuing the all important goal of "diversity".
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  #46  
Old 01-05-17, 01:25 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
So why are you worked up? All he did was make the proposal, you don't think options should be presented to the public before being implemented?

It's a win-win for him. He funnels money to support a "business" that BRINGS IN BILLIONs of EXTERNAL dollars to the state of NY. He gets young people off his unemployment numbers, since they're in school. He keeps employed the blue collar, the white collar people that have their employment because of that infrastructure service supplied by the state.

AND you want the tax payer's of NY to be worked up because some fat radio entertainor doesn't want some small percentage of the applicants to learn about and reseach segments of American culture, ideology and history with which he doesn't socially or politically agree? You'd rather censure? Great idea.

Yeah, New York's tax rates would seem out of line, yet their business capital keeps increasing. For each individual to measure for themselves, which they can only do because he made this public.

Again, I don't agree it's the best way to fund this part of the infrastructure but I do agree with the process for enabling discussion.
Cute how you reference that "fat radio entertainer". Could that be Rush? BTW, I came across this story on good old Yappi. Though I'm constantly amazed at how you guys believe that none of us can think for ourselves and that we take marching orders from General Rush every day.

As far as learning about other "cultures", "ideologies" and whatever, there are plenty of ways to do that without having to support it with tax dollars.

To get back to this thread are you saying that this is a good idea becasue it keeps people from being unemployed while they attend college? That having all these people attend college "free" will somehow boost NY States economy?
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  #47  
Old 01-05-17, 01:39 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by jmog View Post
Notice I said taxable income which already takes into account which deductions are already in there or not.
But not credits against taxes.
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  #48  
Old 01-05-17, 01:56 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
........
It's a win-win for him. He funnels money to support a "business" that BRINGS IN BILLIONs of EXTERNAL dollars to the state of NY. He gets young people off his unemployment numbers, since they're in school. He keeps employed the blue collar, the white collar people that have their employment because of that infrastructure service supplied by the state.
........
It's a lose-lose for the majority of New York's taxpayers, their taxes will go up to support this program and many of them will get no benefit from it. If it is such a bonanza, why not pay EVERYONE'S tuition? Then everyone gets a benefit. From your description it sounds like for every $1 taken from a Taxpayer to pay for this the state receives free income (well for the state it is, for Taxpayers not so much).

Why not defund all of the other wealth transfer mechanisms in New York to pay for everyone to have free college? If it is such a good deal, then if EVERY HS senior goes to college it will attract more and more money and investment and provide actual jobs for the people that were receiving money that they hadn't earned and everyone in NY can work for the university system so that it provides ALL of the jobs in NY....... it's paradise! Like a perpetual money machine.......

People generally support things like this until it means that they have to pay for it. Obamascam enjoys about a 40% support rate, how low would it be if EVERYONE had been asked to pay $1000/year to fund it? My gut says people making less than $125K will love it, those making more will not have the same experience, and if the government were asked to take money from other programs to pay for it those people wouldn't like it either.

Good ideas from government should be good ideas with benefits for all.
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  #49  
Old 01-05-17, 02:31 PM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Reading through the article I don't think trade schools are even covered!
And people wonder why jobs are all overseas now. Youre exactky right. This elitist attitude that "college" people are or can be the only successful people is a joke and needs to eradicated. I know more than a couple guys that took welding and such and make twice as much as their cubical dwelling counterparts paying back 100k in loans and griping about their 60k a year salary lol.
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  #50  
Old 01-05-17, 02:34 PM
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Uh, maybe I missed something but they still have to be admitted into a university, which is largely based on academics.
Lol... watch the ACT requirements drop like a stone.

"Listen, a 15 isn't that bad. We have programs for you to help you get better study habits. No, no they won't cost you anything. The gubment pays for those too."
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  #51  
Old 01-05-17, 02:34 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Well sure. But it's not like kids are going to get C's through high school, score a 900 on the SAT, 19 on the ACT and then get accepted into Ithaca, Syracuse, Vassar, NYU, etc. Even if they go to a branch that will still show up when applying for jobs.
So, are you saying that some of the kids that graduate HS or an equivalency will be deemed too dumb for a free ride somewhere studying something, no matter how useless ? Not a chance. There will be a basket-weaving academy if that's what it takes.

No $ left behind!!!
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  #52  
Old 01-05-17, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
So, are you saying that some of the kids that graduate HS or an equivalency will be deemed too dumb for a free ride somewhere studying something, no matter how useless ? Not a chance. There will be a basket-weaving academy if that's what it takes.

No $ left behind!!!
"So, how'd you get to be the head cashier?

Got to get that sheepskin, brah."
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  #53  
Old 01-05-17, 03:12 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
So, are you saying that some of the kids that graduate HS or an equivalency will be deemed too dumb for a free ride somewhere studying something, no matter how useless ? Not a chance. There will be a basket-weaving academy if that's what it takes.

No $ left behind!!!
Then why aren't those type of students being accepted now?
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  #54  
Old 01-05-17, 03:17 PM
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Then why aren't those type of students being accepted now?
They are. I know a kid that plays for Norte Dame right now that scored an ELEVEN on his ACT the first time he took it. I doubt highly he brought that up to a 28 lol.
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  #55  
Old 01-05-17, 03:25 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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They are. I know a kid that plays for Norte Dame right now that scored an ELEVEN on his ACT the first time he took it. I doubt highly he brought that up to a 28 lol.
Athletes are exceptions.
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  #56  
Old 01-05-17, 03:28 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
But not credits against taxes.
True, I was going with deductions which many deductions are Gross Income limited, but so are some credits like EIC.
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  #57  
Old 01-05-17, 03:55 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Then why aren't those type of students being accepted now?
State-paid FREE for all <$125k is a new concept. As capacity increases, standards will fall. Maybe not next year, but very quickly. You'll see.
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  #58  
Old 01-05-17, 04:15 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
State-paid FREE for all <$125k is a new concept. As capacity increases, standards will fall. Maybe not next year, but very quickly. You'll see.
I fail to see the difference between the state footing the bill and accepting sub-standard applicants vs. loans footing the bill and accepting sub-standard applicants
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  #59  
Old 01-05-17, 05:00 PM
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I could see it happening. As these things seem to go, someone's budget, salary and title are going to be tied to the money being given out. Money doesn't go out, budgets get slashed, salary gets slash, title gets changed from Director to Assistant Director.

The money will go out if that director has to kidnap homeless people.

I mean, if done well this could bring benefit to the state but the chances of it being done well.....

The money is not going to the "student." It's going to the institution.

My feeling is that if the alums of these institutions believe in the quality of the institutions, they will fund these programs, with the belief that the graduates, statistically, will be able to go out and get the type of position that will permit them to pay back. That is what they're trying to do at my alma-mater and the alums are getting behind it. We'll see how it goes but in my mind, the Governor should have at the least proposed to synergized this program onto something of merit and/or with good faith money from the receiving institution.
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  #60  
Old 01-05-17, 08:42 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Uh, maybe I missed something but they still have to be admitted into a university, which is largely based on academics.
Not really, those that couldn't qualify academically to begin an undergraduate program can usually get in on some remedial program that will attempt to redeem their lack of educational readiness.
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