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  #1  
Old 01-03-17, 02:54 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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New York debt-free college plan, covering tuition families earning less than $125,000

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New York Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo is forging ahead with one of the Democratic Party’s most popular ideas by proposing to cover tuition for low- and middle-income students at state colleges and universities.

Any New Yorker accepted to one of the state’s community colleges or four-year universities will be eligible for free tuition provided their family earns less than $125,000 a year. The new initiative will be phased in over three years, beginning for New Yorkers making up to $100,000 annually in the fall of 2017, increasing to $110,000 in 2018, and reaching $125,000 in 2019. It would be a last-dollar program, meaning the state would cover any tuition left over after factoring in federal Pell Grants and New York’s Tuition Assistance Program.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.d106e52ea4a0
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  #2  
Old 01-03-17, 03:42 PM
the_big_toe the_big_toe is offline
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I have always been a proponent of providing educational tuition assistance based upon economic need rather than affirmative action based upon a much more arbitrary variable (i.e. race). I see education as the great equalizer amongst classes, so furthering access to it for the less economically abled is a good thing IMO.
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  #3  
Old 01-03-17, 03:43 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Probably should have started off with community colleges only and gone from there
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  #4  
Old 01-03-17, 03:50 PM
Uncle Ted Uncle Ted is offline
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It will be interesting to see how much tuition raises in New York.
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  #5  
Old 01-03-17, 03:53 PM
sportsprophet sportsprophet is offline
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If your smart and lucky enough you can go to the Ivys for free as well under this rule
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  #6  
Old 01-03-17, 04:15 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Why $125K? Is someone less deserving if their parents make $125,001? Is there SO much extra money in the household with that single extra $1? The problem with means testing is that it fails to account for someone's actual situation. If I'm a single proprietor independent insurance agent and reported $125K in revenue last year, that doesn't include the expenses that my revenue needed to cover for my business - my take-home might have been only $65K. Whereas a school teacher actually got to keep $125K.

Just as color of skin doesn't equate to being college material, neither does parental income. I'd be much more in favor of a program that gave money to the students that demonstrated a desire and an effort to learn vs a lottery to see if race or income can overcome effort and grades. Reward effort in K-12, not their circumstances of birth or parents.
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  #7  
Old 01-03-17, 04:25 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Lines are drawn everywhere in life. Simmer down.


I don't know precise numbers, and cost-of-living obviously varies with geography, but any honest person realizes that disposable income essentially doubles for a person making $95k over the person making $75k. The expenses aren't all that different. By the time a household gets to 125k, enjoys some luxuries, and pays some more taxes, they don't need so much help. It can also be assumed for most that they didn't just get a $50k raise last year. They'll be OK.

Last edited by cabezadecaballo; 01-03-17 at 07:15 PM.
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  #8  
Old 01-03-17, 04:30 PM
Uncle Ted Uncle Ted is offline
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I can see people scamming this situation big time.
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  #9  
Old 01-03-17, 05:39 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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Hopefully China can pay for this
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  #10  
Old 01-03-17, 07:16 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
I can see people scamming this situation big time.
In New York!?!? No way - never!
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  #11  
Old 01-03-17, 07:26 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Probably should have started off with community colleges only and gone from there
We already heavily subsidize CCC.

How about if we give out free tuition to hard-working smart kids at state schools ? Dummies can attend, too, if they aren't too dumb, but they can pay more. We already subsidize quite a bit of the expense with tax dollars. People that are smart but undisciplined can pay some of their own way, too, just in case they goof off even worse when unsupervised.....

Oh......wait. We already do this. Good job, us! No wonder every friggin' foreigner wants to scam his way in here with us.

Hard to believe Michelle Obama was never proud to be an American until we whites made her hubby POTUS, isn't it ?
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  #12  
Old 01-03-17, 08:05 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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It's welfare to the Universities, not so much to the people. They're trying to keep their state system viable. This puts money where they want it. It's a zero sum game with possibility of putting people into higher paying career tracts that otherwise wouldn't get there, IF administered properly. But, it will be administered by the government so yeah,


scammers will scam.

It might work but wasn't there just a news release that Lousiana had this and is now going the opposite direction?
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  #13  
Old 01-03-17, 08:10 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Do those taxpayers get a say in what these students get to choose to study? Or are they just lucky enough to pay for the art majors for the next generations of deadbeats?
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  #14  
Old 01-03-17, 08:15 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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What a colossal waste of tax payer money. As others have noted this is likely to trigger a rapid rise in the cost of a college education loading even a bigger burden on the NY tax payer in the next decade.

And for what? A degree in gender studies or afrocentrics or art history or social justice? Check out this quote from Governor Cuomo:

“College is a mandatory step if you really want to be a success,” Cuomo said Tuesday at LaGuardia Community College in Queens. “And the way this society said we’re going to pay for high school because you need high school, this society should say we’re going to pay for college because you need college to be successful. And New York state is going to do something about it.”

I bet most of you can tell me what's wrong with this statement. This is exactly the WRONG message we should be sending graduating high school kids! It is an elitist attitude towards education that needs to be kicked to the curb not enshrined through tax payer subsidies.
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  #15  
Old 01-03-17, 08:17 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
Do those taxpayers get a say in what these students get to choose to study? Or are they just lucky enough to pay for the art majors for the next generations of deadbeats?
Reading through the article I don't think trade schools are even covered!
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  #16  
Old 01-03-17, 08:21 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
What a colossal waste of tax payer money. As others have noted this is likely to trigger a rapid rise in the cost of a college education loading even a bigger burden on the NY tax payer in the next decade.

And for what? A degree in gender studies or afrocentrics or art history or social justice? Check out this quote from Governor Cuomo:

“College is a mandatory step if you really want to be a success,” Cuomo said Tuesday at LaGuardia Community College in Queens. “And the way this society said we’re going to pay for high school because you need high school, this society should say we’re going to pay for college because you need college to be successful. And New York state is going to do something about it.”

I bet most of you can tell me what's wrong with this statement. This is exactly the WRONG message we should be sending graduating high school kids! It is an elitist attitude towards education that needs to be kicked to the curb not enshrined through tax payer subsidies.
Look how far we have dummied-down HS, to hide the obvious and to keep from hurting feelings. Of course college is necessary. HS graduates now have 10th grade educations
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  #17  
Old 01-03-17, 08:22 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Reading through the article I don't think trade schools are even covered!
Their teachers don't vote the right way!!!!
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  #18  
Old 01-03-17, 09:16 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
“College is a mandatory step if you really want to be a success,” Cuomo said Tuesday at LaGuardia Community College in Queens. “And the way this society said we’re going to pay for high school because you need high school, this society should say we’re going to pay for college because you need college to be successful. And New York state is going to do something about it.”

I bet most of you can tell me what's wrong with this statement. This is exactly the WRONG message we should be sending graduating high school kids! It is an elitist attitude towards education that needs to be kicked to the curb not enshrined through tax payer subsidies.
It's not even remotely an elitist statement. Quite a self-serving spin, with a little drama queen in there lotr. He in no way references that college grads are superior in any fashion. He's simply stating a soft statistic.

It's a drop in the bucket, politically. As I already posted, it's corporate welfare for one of the largest public state entities. I mean look where he was when he gave the speech. Not brain surgery to figure out intent here.

The money stays in-house. There's no real loss here. I also would hope there's more to qualifying than blood pressure but those decrying the liberal arts are the ones that don't get it. More small businesses and entrepreneurial ventures come out of liberal art than the sciences. Sciences go into public or corporate research and there's not a huge portion of people capable. Science grads don't really create a lot of "mom and pop" type businesses, that emply non-grads and lower economic tiers. Liberal Arts does. Yeah, creates a lot of living at mom and pop's couch too but hey, at least they're not on the permanent dole, lol

It's an experiment. It will succeed or it will fail. Nothing to get dramatized over. I would hope though, that they would specifically target vocations that the state needs and let the "but I want to do this thing" find their own way.
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  #19  
Old 01-04-17, 08:46 AM
19AL63 19AL63 is online now
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I hate to be the family that makes 125,001.00 on their taxes. Reminds me of years a go a young single man man two dollars to much and it put him in another tax bracket and cost him 4 dollars in taxes. i can hear it now you paid me too much take a couple of dollars back.
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  #20  
Old 01-04-17, 09:00 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
We already heavily subsidize CCC.
Dope. Point remains. If you're gonna do this, start with CC and then, if successful, move to 4 year universities.
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  #21  
Old 01-04-17, 09:14 AM
HHW96 HHW96 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Dope. Point remains. If you're gonna do this, start with CC and then, if successful, move to 4 year universities.
Agreed.

Even agree with a poster that eluded to showing me success had by the student in K-12 (though 9-12 would do) that would be a key indicator of success in undergraduate studies as a qualifier for the funds.

And don't give me the late bloomer stuff... If a kid struggles in high school, explain to me how the meat grinder of 100 level classes will be any different? Or will we just pass young adults through those courses as well (like many high schools do)?
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  #22  
Old 01-04-17, 09:17 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Dope. Point remains. If you're gonna do this, start with CC and then, if successful, move to 4 year universities.
Hey moron, the real point is that too many people don't value free sh1t, but I'm not surprised you parsed out most of my post to pretend you missed it.
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  #23  
Old 01-04-17, 09:27 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by HHW96 View Post
Agreed.

Even agree with a poster that eluded to showing me success had by the student in K-12 (though 9-12 would do) that would be a key indicator of success in undergraduate studies as a qualifier for the funds.

And don't give me the late bloomer stuff... If a kid struggles in high school, explain to me how the meat grinder of 100 level classes will be any different? Or will we just pass young adults through those courses as well (like many high schools do)?
Eh. I can sympathize, I was a late bloomer. Coasted through HS and first 2 years of college. Then finally started getting sh*t done the final 2.5 years. But I also paid for my college myself. I agree, if it's gonna be free ya gotta have the grades.
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  #24  
Old 01-04-17, 09:32 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Eh. I can sympathize, I was a late bloomer. Coasted through HS and first 2 years of college. Then finally started getting sh*t done the final 2.5 years. But I also paid for my college myself. I agree, if it's gonna be free ya gotta have the grades.
Thanks for confirming my point so quickly.
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  #25  
Old 01-04-17, 09:32 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
It's not even remotely an elitist statement. Quite a self-serving spin, with a little drama queen in there lotr. He in no way references that college grads are superior in any fashion. He's simply stating a soft statistic.
.........
It's an extremely elitist message and a very soft stat. I remember the old adage that a HS diploma was worth $100K over someone's lifetime and that a college degree was worth $500K (vs a HS dropout). I'm not sure that applies anymore, they haven't updated that adage lately.

This was a couple of years ago, but at the height of the Occupy Wall Street tantrum, nearly 40% of college grads were either unemployed or working in positions not related to their degrees. They were protesting college debt that couldn't be retired on the salaries that they were earning....... that's demonstrating a job market that is saturated with applicants. It seems like a waste of Taxpayer money to exasperate the problem.

Meanwhile those with trade experience or education, the jobless/working in other fields was around 6%. The starting pay for a welder is about the same as for a teacher (but welders can often get overtime) and getting the training and certification to become one is 1/10th the time and money - much better return on the investment.

I think if a state wants to help young people, some money for college for those that have demonstrated academic excellence (not decided by race or parental success) and some money for trade school (in careers that have demonstrated shortages in the state) would make for a good investment in the future and eliminate the waste in such government programs.
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  #26  
Old 01-04-17, 10:10 AM
serpico serpico is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
If I'm a single proprietor independent insurance agent and reported $125K in revenue last year, that doesn't include the expenses that my revenue needed to cover for my business - my take-home might have been only $65K. Whereas a school teacher actually got to keep $125K.
The article mentions earnings, not revenue. I'm pretty sure they would go off a business person's bottom line, not their top line.
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  #27  
Old 01-04-17, 10:20 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Thanks for confirming my point so quickly.
Nah.
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  #28  
Old 01-04-17, 10:22 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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  #29  
Old 01-04-17, 10:33 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
It's not even remotely an elitist statement. Quite a self-serving spin, with a little drama queen in there lotr. He in no way references that college grads are superior in any fashion. He's simply stating a soft statistic.

It's a drop in the bucket, politically. As I already posted, it's corporate welfare for one of the largest public state entities. I mean look where he was when he gave the speech. Not brain surgery to figure out intent here.

The money stays in-house. There's no real loss here. I also would hope there's more to qualifying than blood pressure but those decrying the liberal arts are the ones that don't get it. More small businesses and entrepreneurial ventures come out of liberal art than the sciences. Sciences go into public or corporate research and there's not a huge portion of people capable. Science grads don't really create a lot of "mom and pop" type businesses, that emply non-grads and lower economic tiers. Liberal Arts does. Yeah, creates a lot of living at mom and pop's couch too but hey, at least they're not on the permanent dole, lol

It's an experiment. It will succeed or it will fail. Nothing to get dramatized over. I would hope though, that they would specifically target vocations that the state needs and let the "but I want to do this thing" find their own way.
Sorry but not only did Cuomo go on an "elitist" rant but his point is not backed up by the economics of what the job market needs today. High school graduates with the skills to excel as "tradesmen/craftsmen" would be foolish to waste their time in college. The trades offer young people a viable and potentially lucrative living culminating in business ownership.

As for the uselessness of "liberal arts", I'm not referring to the old school vigorous curriculum of a classic liberal arts education in which students were taught to write effectively & eloquently; to think independently, to harness their creativity constructively and to organize their thoughts in useful ways. Those educations did provide value and graduates with these degrees often went on to great success.

I'm talking about what passes for a "liberal arts" education TODAY. You know things like racial, gender & queer studies. The useless crap like "Community Organizing" & majors in "white oppression" and "lesbian poetry". Going to college to learn these things is a complete waste of time. It is simply progressive propaganda masquerading as an education. To ask tax payers to subsidize this nonsense is insulting.

As for the costs, NY state currently struggles under an oppressive tax burden. How would this program not add to that?
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  #30  
Old 01-04-17, 10:40 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Sorry but not only did Cuomo go on an "elitist" rant but his point is not backed up by the economics of what the job market needs today. High school graduates with the skills to excel as "tradesmen/craftsmen" would be foolish to waste their time in college. The trades offer young people a viable and potentially lucrative living culminating in business ownership.

As for the uselessness of "liberal arts", I'm not referring to the old school vigorous curriculum of a classic liberal arts education in which students were taught to write effectively & eloquently; to think independently, to harness their creativity constructively and to organize their thoughts in useful ways. Those educations did provide value and graduates with these degrees often went on to great success.

I'm talking about what passes for a "liberal arts" education TODAY. You know things like racial, gender & queer studies. The useless crap like "Community Organizing" & majors in "white oppression" and "lesbian poetry". Going to college to learn these things is a complete waste of time. It is simply progressive propaganda masquerading as an education. To ask tax payers to subsidize this nonsense is insulting.

As for the costs, NY state currently struggles under an oppressive tax burden. How would this program not add to that?
...."College is a mandatory step if you really want to be a success"....

All the best baristas have Philosophy degrees and Art History minors. So obvious.
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