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  #31  
Old 12-16-16, 05:09 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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The other thing that seems a little odd in this is that this has got very little attention. I heard about it briefly last night, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in this story. Especially from our favorite liberal network ESPN.
You would think this would be big news, yet last night all we heard about was Craig Sager's passing, and a little on the football game?
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  #32  
Old 12-16-16, 05:12 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
The other thing that seems a little odd in this is that this has got very little attention. I heard about it briefly last night, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in this story. Especially from our favorite liberal network ESPN.
I think the reason you are not hearing much about this is because it is two liberal philosophies going head-to-head. Women's rights versus campus activism. Tough to take sides when you support both ideas.
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  #33  
Old 12-16-16, 06:22 PM
falguin falguin is offline
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I would expel all of those players. This was not consensual. This was a drunk girl afraid to stand up and simply tried to play nice and found herself in a bad situation. If you are a Minnesotta alum, are these the type of kids you want representing you university? These guys are pigs who have no respect for women. I would sit the rest down and tell them that if they don't play, they will lose their scholarships, which means all academic support. They will also be expelled from school for violation of University standards, which means they will never go to college again, let alone play football. If I was on the board, I would fire the coach for backing these disgusting punks. The coach should have set them down and still booted them. Just because you got away with something doesn't mean you didn't do it. The coach should kick them off because they embarrassed the team and university. Every where they go, opposing teams are going to call them rape U. Boot the whole team. It's not like those players are that good anyway. Discipline these kids and watch how many will abandon these pigs.
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  #34  
Old 12-16-16, 08:15 PM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is offline
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At the end of the day, I don't have a problem with a school that has standards that frown upon and punish scholarship students, let alone scholarship students who are the face of the school, for gang banging drunken coeds. Seems there was a hearing process and there was evidence enough to satisfy those that heard it. In the end, they'd just better be sure this isn't a replay of the Duke lacrosse mess.

I'm actually a little surprised that the bowl hasn't pulled the plug on the school with the uncertainty of their participation. I also think if push comes to shove, there will be many Golden Gopher "scabs" that cross the line and play.
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  #35  
Old 12-17-16, 02:28 AM
Thomas Paine Thomas Paine is offline
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Hop off your high horse falguin, you would have been at the front of the line..

Silly libs, the girl admitted to consensual with two of the student athletes, maybe consensual with 4, but she definitely didn't want to bang 20+..I'm not a defense attorney by any means, but...

Whether you like it or not, the students are not "guilty" of a crime, or of breaking any school rules. These are facts as they appear in the court of law.

Would the university suspend a non-athlete female who was filmed in a gang bang porno? Absolutely not. There is no difference as it pertains to the law. The student athletes are innocent in the court of law, in the same way that the hypothetical non athlete is doing nothing legally wrong by partaking in a porno orgy.

Would I prefer that my daughter,wife, sister, etc. was involved in a gang bang? Uhhhhhhh no....but does that make the student athletes deserve discipline? No..it means I raised, married, etc. a woman with the sex drive of a buck during rut season

The university has yet to state why the players have been suspended.

Is it because they embarrassed the institution? Maybe. Where does the university draw the line with respect to what "embarrasses" them? bottom line is if they don't want their football players partaking in legal gang bangs then they should have written a rule dictating such. NCAA, University of Minnesota, and federal/state law does not disallow gang bangs to my knowledge. Until a law is made against consensual gang bangs, gang bang away!

Personally I think it is disgusting that you would have the audacity to accuse young men of rape when they are not "guilty" of a crime in the court of law. Shame on you, You're "guilty" of slander.

Another example of athletes being held to an unfair standard due to their visibility and media presence.

If it were rape, and the young men were found guilty, it is an entirely different story, but who are you or I or anyone else who does not have access to all of the facts to deem someone a rapist after the charges have been dropped against them?
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  #36  
Old 12-17-16, 07:09 AM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
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^^^
After reading your post above, I think you are guilty of stupid. .
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  #37  
Old 12-17-16, 07:13 AM
FirestoneFan FirestoneFan is offline
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Just let N Illinois in to play.
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  #38  
Old 12-17-16, 08:41 AM
falguin falguin is offline
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Hop of my high horse? Wow, TP, I'd hate to be a woman around you because if you think that a gang bang with a girl who was drink is okay, I'd hate to know what else you think is okay. As far as who would be at the front of the line, we all know TP would be in on it. Why do you have the name Thomas Paine? Liberal? It is liberal to think that players who are representing a university should not participate in such activity is a liberal idea, then you clearly are no conservative. Oh by the way, use your tiny brain. How many girls participate in something like this and then immediately call the police. I know less than a minute of her appearing to be okay with this means she wanted it. Or maybe she was okay with sex with the one guy, but the ten to follow was not okay. Are there videos of that that the police were shown? Oh no, gee I wonder why?
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  #39  
Old 12-17-16, 09:08 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Paine View Post
...... as it pertains to the law. The student athletes are innocent in the court of law, .........

......The university has yet to state why the players have been suspended.

Is it because they embarrassed the institution? Maybe. Where does the university draw the line with respect to what "embarrasses" them? ..........

.......If it were rape, and the young men were found guilty, it is an entirely different story, but who are you or I or anyone else who does not have access to all of the facts to deem someone a rapist after the charges have been dropped against them?
Wrong. "Found 'not guilty' " is NOT declared innocent. It means there is not enough evidence to convict.

Such a simpler time when a girl knew not to go up to a boys room.......
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  #40  
Old 12-17-16, 12:22 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Boycott over - here is the players' statement -

Quote:
As a team, we understand that what has occurred these past few days, and playing football for the University of Minnesota, is larger than just us. ...
We now ask that you, the members of the media, our fans, and the general public hold all of us accountable for ensuring that our teammates are treated fairly, along with any and all victims of sexual assault. We also ask that the public dialogue related to the apparent lack of due process in a university system is openly discussed and evaluated.


http://www.cbssports.com/college-foo...at-to-boycott/
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  #41  
Old 12-17-16, 01:47 PM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is offline
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Originally Posted by Thomas Paine View Post
Hop off your high horse falguin, you would have been at the front of the line..

Silly libs, the girl admitted to consensual with two of the student athletes, maybe consensual with 4, but she definitely didn't want to bang 20+..I'm not a defense attorney by any means, but...

Whether you like it or not, the students are not "guilty" of a crime, or of breaking any school rules. These are facts as they appear in the court of law.

Would the university suspend a non-athlete female who was filmed in a gang bang porno? Absolutely not. There is no difference as it pertains to the law. The student athletes are innocent in the court of law, in the same way that the hypothetical non athlete is doing nothing legally wrong by partaking in a porno orgy.

Would I prefer that my daughter,wife, sister, etc. was involved in a gang bang? Uhhhhhhh no....but does that make the student athletes deserve discipline? No..it means I raised, married, etc. a woman with the sex drive of a buck during rut season

The university has yet to state why the players have been suspended.

Is it because they embarrassed the institution? Maybe. Where does the university draw the line with respect to what "embarrasses" them? bottom line is if they don't want their football players partaking in legal gang bangs then they should have written a rule dictating such. NCAA, University of Minnesota, and federal/state law does not disallow gang bangs to my knowledge. Until a law is made against consensual gang bangs, gang bang away!

Personally I think it is disgusting that you would have the audacity to accuse young men of rape when they are not "guilty" of a crime in the court of law. Shame on you, You're "guilty" of slander.

Another example of athletes being held to an unfair standard due to their visibility and media presence.

If it were rape, and the young men were found guilty, it is an entirely different story, but who are you or I or anyone else who does not have access to all of the facts to deem someone a rapist after the charges have been dropped against them?
Please provide a copy of your J.D. as well as a copy of the University of Minnesota Code of Student Conduct.
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  #42  
Old 12-17-16, 01:54 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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I'm predicting silence from Trollus Paine
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  #43  
Old 12-17-16, 06:24 PM
sodbuster sodbuster is offline
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Is that Antoine Winfield related to Dave Winfield?
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  #44  
Old 12-17-16, 06:50 PM
Michael Bluth Michael Bluth is offline
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No, he is related to Antoine Winfield
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  #45  
Old 12-18-16, 05:33 PM
cjb56 cjb56 is offline
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I read the police report and the school report. The cops had video of the girl from several surveillance cameras...and some video of the sex from a players phone...and they concluded the girl did not seem inebriated and seemed pretty into the sex, so they did not press charges as they deemed all the sex consensual. The university report also concluded the girl was in full control of her faculties and did not appear drunk. Even though the girl kept adding to/changing her story, the school decided to basically go with her account, thus the players were hit with school conduct violations.

While I do agree the players were scummy, and recording some of the sex without explicit consent from the girl opens them up for discipline, the girl basically wanted to do a bunch of these players and didn't put up much, if any, resistance at any point. Only when she returned home and realized what she did, and that it was going to get out in public, did she go after the rape charges.

There are no good guys or girls in any part of this incident. If I were the players, I would consider a legal challenge to the college's discipline and for putting their names and pictures out in public while the girl's identity remains protected.
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  #46  
Old 12-18-16, 07:05 PM
king kong king kong is offline
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Originally Posted by cjb56 View Post
There are no good guys or girls in any part of this incident. If I were the players, I would consider a legal challenge to the college's discipline and for putting their names and pictures out in public while the girl's identity remains protected.
This bothers me as well, I know the players are held to a higher standard, but this girls name is being hidden while the players are being plastered all over.
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  #47  
Old 12-18-16, 08:19 PM
Thomas Paine Thomas Paine is offline
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Exactly my point.

Before any of you have any other bleeding heart anti make athlete responses perhaps you could actually read the police report: you know, the document that states exactly what evidence was reviewed by professionals.

I never claimed to have a law degree. But again, I have never heard of an orgy being illegal.

The video that was reviewed by the police showed that she was not inebriated and was not doing anything against her own will. Yet, as the previous poster mentioned, the woman's name is being protected, while the men's names are being drug through the mud on every media outlet in America. The men were suspended while the woman was not.

It seems as if the police decided that based upon their evidence, that the sexual act was one of consent between consenting adults. Explain; again, why are these men being suspended and receiving such negative media attention.

How these opinions make me a troll I do not understand. I stand by my original argument, the men might have exhibited poor character, but did not commit a crime nor did they break any NCAA or school rules. If they had broken a uMinnesota rule, then all UM administration had to do was state that the players were being suspended because they committed an infraction based on the Minnesota code of conduct. This is not what happened, they were suspended but not told for what infraction.

I do not need to produce or have a law degree to know that the student athletes Are not guilty of a crime. The police found them to be not guilty of a crime. I know, I'm sure all of you are much smarter than the police that handled this case.

You people really can not be this dense, can you?
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  #48  
Old 12-18-16, 08:31 PM
Thomas Paine Thomas Paine is offline
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Not guilty or innocent makes no difference. the student athletes were not found guilty of a crime. They are being disciplined by the school because the school is embarrassed.

If an art history major were to make a porno doing unspeakable sexual acts with 100 men, would the school suspend her? I doubt it. Would they put it in all of the national papers and news outlets?

The student athletes are being held to a higher standard than the other students because they are in the media. These young men will have this incident affect the rest of their lives because any simple google search will associate them with a sexual attack. The woman, on the other hand, hasn't even had her name released. The university of Minnesota should be embarrassed by their handling of this situation. If I were a recruit, coach, etc. U of Minnesota is the last place on earth I would choose to attend.
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  #49  
Old 12-19-16, 08:41 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
If you offer a high school kid a full scholarship, some will take it.

Look, Minnesota is a .500 team at best, especially when you take out the non conference cupcakes that all big programs have. They'd be just fine, AND they'd still have their integrity.
They won't be getting the same level football players. They'll drop to sub .500 with their cupcakes and won't make bowl games, which helps getting recruits. Please stop being so damn stupid and think before you post.
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  #50  
Old 12-19-16, 08:43 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by falguin View Post
I would expel all of those players. This was not consensual. This was a drunk girl afraid to stand up and simply tried to play nice and found herself in a bad situation. If you are a Minnesotta alum, are these the type of kids you want representing you university? These guys are pigs who have no respect for women. I would sit the rest down and tell them that if they don't play, they will lose their scholarships, which means all academic support. They will also be expelled from school for violation of University standards, which means they will never go to college again, let alone play football. If I was on the board, I would fire the coach for backing these disgusting punks. The coach should have set them down and still booted them. Just because you got away with something doesn't mean you didn't do it. The coach should kick them off because they embarrassed the team and university. Every where they go, opposing teams are going to call them rape U. Boot the whole team. It's not like those players are that good anyway. Discipline these kids and watch how many will abandon these pigs.
Sorry but there's zero chance for you to know this. Thank God you have zero power in this world. Scary, sentencing those as guilty without any knowledge on the subject.
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  #51  
Old 12-19-16, 10:16 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Well well, the players did a 180 AFTER reading the 80 page report. You would have thought they may have known exactly what they were protesting before putting their academic and athletic lives on the line for teammates??

Also, it appears that many didn't check with Mom and Dad before making this decision as there were reports of parents "talking" to their sons about this decision.

So as quickly as it started, it was over. By Saturday morning the players backpedaled quicker than DB's covering a receiver and the will indeed graciously accept their bowl bid and we'll probably never hear another peep from them.

This is probably a pretty good example why 18-22 year olds shouldn't be making decisions like this. As much as they think they know, they don't know.
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  #52  
Old 12-19-16, 10:18 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
They won't be getting the same level football players. They'll drop to sub .500 with their cupcakes and won't make bowl games, which helps getting recruits. Please stop being so damn stupid and think before you post.
Hey Jim, some things are more important than being in bowl games. I really, really hope you understand that. Of course they wouldn't get the same level players, not initially, but after a few years, they'd be back to the same mid level .500 Big ten team. But at least they'd have their integrity.
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  #53  
Old 12-19-16, 10:25 AM
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  #54  
Old 12-19-16, 10:27 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Hey Jim, some things are more important than being in bowl games. I really, really hope you understand that. Of course they wouldn't get the same level players, not initially, but after a few years, they'd be back to the same mid level .500 Big ten team. But at least they'd have their integrity.
No, they wouldn't. You think 8th graders this year, in 4 years from now, won't remember the time Minnesota pulled scholarships from all 85 players on the football team for something 5-7 kids did?

You're right, there are more important things than bowl games. Like taking all the money the football team brings in and using it to keep every other (exception of basketball) sport afloat. You think Minnesota is gonna have 83% of their stadium filled when they have FCS level kids playing against OSU, Michigan, MSU, Penn State, Wisconsin, etc?
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  #55  
Old 12-19-16, 10:28 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Well well, the players did a 180 AFTER reading the 80 page report. You would have thought they may have known exactly what they were protesting before putting their academic and athletic lives on the line for teammates??

Also, it appears that many didn't check with Mom and Dad before making this decision as there were reports of parents "talking" to their sons about this decision.

So as quickly as it started, it was over. By Saturday morning the players backpedaled quicker than DB's covering a receiver and the will indeed graciously accept their bowl bid and we'll probably never hear another peep from them.

This is probably a pretty good example why 18-22 year olds shouldn't be making decisions like this. As much as they think they know, they don't know.
I agree, which is a good thing we don't let 18-22 year olds vote or serve in the military.
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  #56  
Old 12-19-16, 11:10 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by cjb56 View Post
I read the police report and the school report. The cops had video of the girl from several surveillance cameras...and some video of the sex from a players phone...and they concluded the girl did not seem inebriated and seemed pretty into the sex, so they did not press charges as they deemed all the sex consensual. The university report also concluded the girl was in full control of her faculties and did not appear drunk. Even though the girl kept adding to/changing her story, the school decided to basically go with her account, thus the players were hit with school conduct violations.

While I do agree the players were scummy, and recording some of the sex without explicit consent from the girl opens them up for discipline, the girl basically wanted to do a bunch of these players and didn't put up much, if any, resistance at any point. Only when she returned home and realized what she did, and that it was going to get out in public, did she go after the rape charges.

There are no good guys or girls in any part of this incident. If I were the players, I would consider a legal challenge to the college's discipline and for putting their names and pictures out in public while the girl's identity remains protected.
Correct about goodness.

When police/prosecutors decide not to charge someone, it doesn't mean they are "innocent"; a frequently misused term. They have also not been found to be "not guilty". The charging arm of law enforcement has decided for whatever reason that a criminal charge is inappropriate...there is no crime or they think there is a crime but think they can't prove it.

Then the matter is handed over to the administrative process of the school. Far less due process; lower burdens of proof; sometimes attorneys aren't allowed; limited discovery; school employees sit in judgement; subject to the ebbs and flows of popular opinion and culture. There has been a lot of concern with "date rape" on campuses in recent years, but just recently (and appropriately in my opinion) there is getting to be some serious push-back from the accused that these sometimes ambiguous sexual encounters (where the girl-rightly-wakes up the next day feeling like a slut) are being punished like provable rapes...when THEY AREN'T, and, further, that the accused is entitled to more due process when some of the punishments are quite severe (the scarlet letter aspect, loss of scholarship, expulsion, etc.).

I don't know the details of this. I was liking the players' stance...until they caved.

Last edited by CatAlum; 12-19-16 at 11:37 AM..
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  #57  
Old 12-19-16, 12:07 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
No, they wouldn't. You think 8th graders this year, in 4 years from now, won't remember the time Minnesota pulled scholarships from all 85 players on the football team for something 5-7 kids did?

You're right, there are more important things than bowl games. Like taking all the money the football team brings in and using it to keep every other (exception of basketball) sport afloat. You think Minnesota is gonna have 83% of their stadium filled when they have FCS level kids playing against OSU, Michigan, MSU, Penn State, Wisconsin, etc?
Exactly, you make my point, this years 8th graders won't care 4 years from now. If ANY school offers a full ride, especially a big ten school, kids will listen. I would hope people would applaud the university for taking action for something that would normally put these student athletes in jail.

The whole funding of college athletics per sport is a whole other can of worms to bring up. There would be no other college sports other than football and basketball if you had sports fund themselves. I think it's the prudent thing to do to have these other sports to attract good student athletes to your school. Even if it is for swimming, golf or soccer.
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  #58  
Old 12-19-16, 12:13 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Correct about goodness.

When police/prosecutors decide not to charge someone, it doesn't mean they are "innocent"; a frequently misused term. They have also not been found to be "not guilty". The charging arm of law enforcement has decided for whatever reason that a criminal charge is inappropriate...there is no crime or they think there is a crime but think they can't prove it.

Then the matter is handed over to the administrative process of the school. Far less due process; lower burdens of proof; sometimes attorneys aren't allowed; limited discovery; school employees sit in judgement; subject to the ebbs and flows of popular opinion and culture. There has been a lot of concern with "date rape" on campuses in recent years, but just recently (and appropriately in my opinion) there is getting to be some serious push-back from the accused that these sometimes ambiguous sexual encounters (where the girl-rightly-wakes up the next day feeling like a slut) are being punished like provable rapes...when THEY AREN'T, and, further, that the accused is entitled to more due process when some of the punishments are quite severe (the scarlet letter aspect, loss of scholarship, expulsion, etc.).

I don't know the details of this. I was liking the players' stance...until they caved.
Very good post. There is levels of innocence and guilty. The school has it's own level of conduct above the law, which is fine. The players knew, or should have known about this, but my guess is they didn't. This was a bunch of student athletes who don't understand the legal system and using their "one for all" team approach that is told to them by coaches to try to force the school into caving.
Once they woke up and came out of fantasy world, they saw that college athletics, along with their scholarships, are privileges, not rights. I applaud the President and AD for taking this stance. Many schools, when looking at a big payday from a bowl game, would have just looked the other way and not made a big deal about this.
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  #59  
Old 12-19-16, 12:17 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Exactly, you make my point, this years 8th graders won't care 4 years from now. If ANY school offers a full ride, especially a big ten school, kids will listen. I would hope people would applaud the university for taking action for something that would normally put these student athletes in jail.

The whole funding of college athletics per sport is a whole other can of worms to bring up. There would be no other college sports other than football and basketball if you had sports fund themselves. I think it's the prudent thing to do to have these other sports to attract good student athletes to your school. Even if it is for swimming, golf or soccer.
No, not your point. They will remember. They will have schools like Iowa, Iowa State, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Northwestern, NIU, Kansas, Kansas State, etc. reminding them "Hey, don't forget, Minnesota pulled 85 scholarships because of something 5-7 guys did. Our school would never even think of doing that." What does it matter if Minnesota offers a full ride knowing they could pull it any second because of something that MIGHT have happened?

You're only further straightening my point. If Minnesota were to gut their entire team, which you mentioned, no one is paying money to go see it. Especially in the first 3 years.
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  #60  
Old 12-19-16, 04:39 PM
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An interesting take on how the minnsota football program could suffer from this incident. Some say that the Oho State basketball program suffered more than did minnesota's after the beating Luke Witte suffered at the hands of corky taylor, ron behagen and dave winfield. With the apparent mind-set of these kids that minnesota has they will be able to recuit like minded football players to their program.
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