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  #181  
Old 01-10-17, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Awfully, awfully expensive bench player, for 60 games, that's $233,000 per start.
Who cares?
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  #182  
Old 01-10-17, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Awfully, awfully expensive bench player, for 60 games, that's $233,000 per start.
Do you somehow magically save money if he starts 150 games? THE MONEY IS SPENT. TOTAL EXPENSES WILL REMAIN THE SAME. Please understand this. And thank the lord that you don't run a business.

Unless the Reds are in playoff contention, it doesn't matter if BP hits .380 with 40 HR. He is not part of the future, so lets move on to the future.

Now next topic.
  #183  
Old 01-10-17, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wolves82 View Post
Do you somehow magically save money if he starts 150 games? THE MONEY IS SPENT. TOTAL EXPENSES WILL REMAIN THE SAME. Please understand this. And thank the lord that you don't run a business.

Unless the Reds are in playoff contention, it doesn't matter if BP hits .380 with 40 HR. He is not part of the future, so lets move on to the future.

Now next topic.
Ha ha...let's hope YOU don't run a business. You'd hire more people and pay two people to do one job.

Essentially, many of you fans want the Reds to give BP to another team, pay for most or all of his contract and then hire two or three more 2nd basemen to play for the Reds this year. And I'll bet Phillips is still the Reds best second baseman. Tell me where that makes any sense at all?
  #184  
Old 01-10-17, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Ha ha...let's hope YOU don't run a business. You'd hire more people and pay two people to do one job.

Essentially, many of you fans want the Reds to give BP to another team, pay for most or all of his contract and then hire two or three more 2nd basemen to play for the Reds this year. And I'll bet Phillips is still the Reds best second baseman. Tell me where that makes any sense at all?
God, what a nitwit this guy is. Again, if a team is rebuilding, it makes no sense to play a veteran who isn't part of the rebuilding plans, regardless what you are paying him.
  #185  
Old 01-11-17, 12:35 AM
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I wonder if 14Red knows that baseball contracts are guaranteed
  #186  
Old 01-11-17, 08:16 AM
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Obviously not. Otherwise he wouldn't have made that god awful comparison 3 posts up.
  #187  
Old 01-11-17, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
God, what a nitwit this guy is. Again, if a team is rebuilding, it makes no sense to play a veteran who isn't part of the rebuilding plans, regardless what you are paying him.
First of all, let's define rebuilding, which you really truly never are doing. All these contracts start and end at different times. When the Reds signed BP to the extention in 2012, they didn't realize they'd be in this position in '17. You don't PLAN on losing 90+ games in back to back seasons.

My point is there is always going to be a few bad contracts that you have to deal with. The Votto one, for all his current value, is going to hang on this team until 2024. Should we sit him now too??

My other point that none of you seem to get is that BP is our best 2nd baseman, Herrera is young and will be here next year, IF you want him. He's not proven to be a major league 2nd baseman, or the Mets would have kept him. They lost Murphy last year and if Herrera was that good, he'd be the Mets 2nd baseman. I'm willing to look at the kid, but I'm not handing him a job. Peraza has proven to me he can be the everyday shortstop of this team, and sitting Cozart makes a heck of alot more sense to me than sitting BP.
  #188  
Old 01-11-17, 08:41 AM
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I wonder if 14Red knows that baseball contracts are guaranteed
Sure do Sig. It's what makes this process so difficult, and why you have to be really smart in offering contracts to baseball players.
  #189  
Old 01-11-17, 08:46 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
First of all, let's define rebuilding, which you really truly never are doing. All these contracts start and end at different times. When the Reds signed BP to the extention in 2012, they didn't realize they'd be in this position in '17. You don't PLAN on losing 90+ games in back to back seasons.

My point is there is always going to be a few bad contracts that you have to deal with. The Votto one, for all his current value, is going to hang on this team until 2024. Should we sit him now too??

My other point that none of you seem to get is that BP is our best 2nd baseman, Herrera is young and will be here next year, IF you want him. He's not proven to be a major league 2nd baseman, or the Mets would have kept him. They lost Murphy last year and if Herrera was that good, he'd be the Mets 2nd baseman. I'm willing to look at the kid, but I'm not handing him a job. Peraza has proven to me he can be the everyday shortstop of this team, and sitting Cozart makes a heck of alot more sense to me than sitting BP.
That's not even remotely comparable to what's going on with BP.
  #190  
Old 01-11-17, 08:46 AM
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Ha ha...let's hope YOU don't run a business. You'd hire more people and pay two people to do one job.
I've run two small software businesses and sold one. Let me use small words so you can understand.

If BP plays 140 games, or sits 140 games, the Reds are not "hiring" anyone extra. Their 40 man roster is a fixed number. Total payroll expense is the same. Just play the young guy, so we can work towards the future.

Get it yet?
  #191  
Old 01-11-17, 08:51 AM
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My other point that none of you seem to get is that BP is our best 2nd baseman, Herrera is young and will be here next year, IF you want him. He's not proven to be a major league 2nd baseman.
THIS is exactly the point. It doesn;t matter that BP is better right now, unless the Reds are making a playoff run in 2017. Reds needs to find out in 2017 IF Herrera can play. He needs to play 130 or more games, so we can find out about him.

Get it yet?
  #192  
Old 01-11-17, 08:56 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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I'll answer for 14: no, he doesn't get it.
  #193  
Old 01-11-17, 11:41 AM
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This is comical. I wonder if he truly believes this or is just trolling.
  #194  
Old 01-11-17, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by wolves82 View Post
I've run two small software businesses and sold one. Let me use small words so you can understand.

If BP plays 140 games, or sits 140 games, the Reds are not "hiring" anyone extra. Their 40 man roster is a fixed number. Total payroll expense is the same. Just play the young guy, so we can work towards the future.

Get it yet?
Ok, I'll play....

in your software company of 40 employees, you have 3 employees doing a specific job. One makes $60,000 per year, the other two make $20,000 per year for 2017.

In March, you tell the $60,000 employee to take the rest of the year off, still get paid, and the other two $20,000 employees will pick up the slack. How do ya think that will go over???? Do you tell your two $20,000 employees your "working toward the future"???
  #195  
Old 01-11-17, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Ok, I'll play....

in your software company of 40 employees, you have 3 employees doing a specific job. One makes $60,000 per year, the other two make $20,000 per year for 2017.

In March, you tell the $60,000 employee to take the rest of the year off, still get paid, and the other two $20,000 employees will pick up the slack. How do ya think that will go over???? Do you tell your two $20,000 employees your "working toward the future"???
His employees salaries aren't guaranteed. That's not the same thing. `
  #196  
Old 01-11-17, 04:00 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
His employees salaries aren't guaranteed. That's not the same thing. `
Jim, that actually helps my argument. wolves could probably just terminate his $60,000 employee (as long as it's not discrimination) and call it a RIF, and save the money. So you're asking the Reds to just throw money away.

My point all along is it's easy for you guys to spend or decide how other people use their money. The Reds owe you guys nothing. They signed BP to a $14 contract in 2012 and it ends at the end of the 2017 season. Now because we like the Reds and want them to succeed, we don't give a rip about the $14 million. We want them to let a younger guy play because it will help us look into the future. However historically, it's 50-50 even on the most positive side that Herrera would be our 2nd baseman 2 or 3 years from now. More than likely 3 years from now we have another 2nd baseman and all this griping is for nothing.
  #197  
Old 01-11-17, 04:13 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Why are YOU so concerned with how the Reds spend money? That's a risk you run in sports. The Reds know it. If they are a smart franchise, they will eat the cost of the contract and build towards the future, which Brandon Phillips is not a part of. I realize you don't understand this and you never will.
  #198  
Old 01-11-17, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Ok, I'll play....

in your software company of 40 employees, you have 3 employees doing a specific job. One makes $60,000 per year, the other two make $20,000 per year for 2017.

In March, you tell the $60,000 employee to take the rest of the year off, still get paid, and the other two $20,000 employees will pick up the slack. How do ya think that will go over???? Do you tell your two $20,000 employees your "working toward the future"???
So your argument is the rest of the team will slack off or be upset because Phillips isn't playing?
  #199  
Old 01-11-17, 04:44 PM
wolves82 wolves82 is offline
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Ok, I'll play....

in your software company of 40 employees, you have 3 employees doing a specific job. One makes $60,000 per year, the other two make $20,000 per year for 2017.

In March, you tell the $60,000 employee to take the rest of the year off, still get paid, and the other two $20,000 employees will pick up the slack. How do ya think that will go over???? Do you tell your two $20,000 employees your "working toward the future"???
I've tried to stay above insulting and name-calling, but you make it hard. Please understand:

In my company the $60K person not working results in less work being done, and it forces the $20K guys to work harder, and my company suffers low productivity.

In the Reds case, there is a fixed amount of work to do. (162 games, 9 innings of 2B). If I tell the expensive guy to sit on the bench and pinch hit, it does not result in extra work for the less expensive guy. In fact, he is VERY EAGER to play those innings. We may lose 105 games instead of 101, but we are gaining info / making decisions for the future.

You are an idiot and terrible at analogies and critical thinking. Sorry, couldn't stop my fingers.
  #200  
Old 01-11-17, 04:47 PM
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So your argument is the rest of the team will slack off or be upset because Phillips isn't playing?
Not at all, they'll probably be happy to have a chance to play. I'm just showing how silly it is to pay someone for not being on the team.
  #201  
Old 01-11-17, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wolves82 View Post
I've tried to stay above insulting and name-calling, but you make it hard. Please understand:

In my company the $60K person not working results in less work being done, and it forces the $20K guys to work harder, and my company suffers low productivity.

In the Reds case, there is a fixed amount of work to do. (162 games, 9 innings of 2B). If I tell the expensive guy to sit on the bench and pinch hit, it does not result in extra work for the less expensive guy. In fact, he is VERY EAGER to play those innings. We may lose 105 games instead of 101, but we are gaining info / making decisions for the future.

You are an idiot and terrible at analogies and critical thinking. Sorry, couldn't stop my fingers.
And you are completely happy writing that check for the $60k guy to do nothing??? That's what you are asking Bob Castellini to do. Write BP checks for not being on the team. Except Castellini is writing a much bigger check than you, and he may see that the guy he's paying not to play is better than what he has?? Nice try comparing your own little business, but as you can see, there is no comparison. Apples and oranges my friend.
  #202  
Old 01-11-17, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Why are YOU so concerned with how the Reds spend money? That's a risk you run in sports. The Reds know it. If they are a smart franchise, they will eat the cost of the contract and build towards the future, which Brandon Phillips is not a part of. I realize you don't understand this and you never will.
If the Reds were the Yankees or Cubs, they could do this, they have much more margin for error and don't have to watch their pennies. This is the Bronson Arroyo argument all over again from 7-8 years ago. Sure the Reds could have bagged Bronson, paid him not to pitch and bring up young arms. But they decided not to take the financial hit, and he ended up being one of the better innings eaters we've seen in a while.
  #203  
Old 01-11-17, 05:53 PM
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Not at all, they'll probably be happy to have a chance to play. I'm just showing how silly it is to pay someone for not being on the team.
You failed to show how it's silly, since even you admitted it wouldn't impact the other players.
  #204  
Old 01-11-17, 05:55 PM
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And you are completely happy writing that check for the $60k guy to do nothing??? That's what you are asking Bob Castellini to do. Write BP checks for not being on the team. Except Castellini is writing a much bigger check than you, and he may see that the guy he's paying not to play is better than what he has?? Nice try comparing your own little business, but as you can see, there is no comparison. Apples and oranges my friend.
14red brought up the business analogy.
  #205  
Old 01-12-17, 07:31 AM
wolves82 wolves82 is offline
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And you are completely happy writing that check for the $60k guy to do nothing??? That's what you are asking Bob Castellini to do. Write BP checks for not being on the team. Except Castellini is writing a much bigger check than you, and he may see that the guy he's paying not to play is better than what he has?? Nice try comparing your own little business, but as you can see, there is no comparison. Apples and oranges my friend.
First, you brought up the business comparison. As usual it was a bad analogy, so blame yourself for the apples and oranges.

Good business people take personal emotion out of decisions so it doesn't matter if Castellini is happy about it. you decide what is best for your business going forward, based on your current reality. He decided to write the checks years ago, it should not factor into playing time decisions in 2017.

With that, I give up. You are either:
- too dumb to understand
- too stubborn/proud to admit you are wrong
- a troll

My money is on the middle one.
  #206  
Old 01-12-17, 08:01 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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And you are completely happy writing that check for the $60k guy to do nothing??? That's what you are asking Bob Castellini to do. Write BP checks for not being on the team. Except Castellini is writing a much bigger check than you, and he may see that the guy he's paying not to play is better than what he has?? Nice try comparing your own little business, but as you can see, there is no comparison. Apples and oranges my friend.
As I've said before, that's the risk you run running a sports franchise. And yeah, Castellini is writing MUCH bigger checks than wolves, however he's receiving MUCH more money than wolves.
  #207  
Old 01-12-17, 08:03 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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If the Reds were the Yankees or Cubs, they could do this, they have much more margin for error and don't have to watch their pennies. This is the Bronson Arroyo argument all over again from 7-8 years ago. Sure the Reds could have bagged Bronson, paid him not to pitch and bring up young arms. But they decided not to take the financial hit, and he ended up being one of the better innings eaters we've seen in a while.
It's not even remotely close to the Bronson situation, Bronson was still productive for a playoff team. It's not like the Reds are payroll is $200+ million and they are eating $25 million a year.
  #208  
Old 01-12-17, 11:09 AM
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Ok, let's do some projecting...please list your position by position lineup for your Reds on opening day.
  #209  
Old 01-12-17, 12:25 PM
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Sorry, you lost all credibility in discussing the Reds.
  #210  
Old 01-12-17, 01:45 PM
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Sorry, you lost all credibility in discussing the Reds.
only from a few people on a message board who can't see their hand in front of their face, and aren't willing to be open to ideas other than theirs. This is the 2017 Reds thread, correct??

So here's my lineup for opening day....

CF - Billy Hamilton
SS - Jose Peraza
1B - Joey Votto
LF - Adam Duvall
C - Devin Mesoraco
2B - Brandon Phillips
RF- Scott Schiebler
3B - Eugenio Suarez
P - Homer Bailey

The lineup may not be perfect, but these are the people who will man these position, IMO.
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