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  #661  
Old 01-11-17, 01:12 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
It's completely moronic of you to act as if Clowney's injury-affected portion of his career is equally indicative of his value when held up against this year, and then doubling down on doofus by citing Greg friggin' Oden.

You are being a complete idiot, on purpose
I'm sorry you can't see that, as it stands right this second, Clowney wasn't worth the #1 pick. You can speculate all you want on what he will do, but the fact remains, right now he has played essentially one year and that one year was a borderline Pro Bowl. I'm not sure about you but if I'm drafting someone with the #1 pick I want them to play every year and at a high level every year. Given the Browns lack of success for the last 20 years though, I can see why you would think Clowney is deserving the #1 pick. Sometimes I forget who I'm dealing with and have to temper expectations greatly.

Just because something is beyond your limited mental capacity, does not make someone else an idiot.
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  #662  
Old 01-11-17, 01:38 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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8 of the last 18 top picks in the draft have never been to the pro bowl so a lot of teams seem to be whiffing on the top pcks
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  #663  
Old 01-11-17, 02:44 PM
joesports joesports is offline
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Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
8 of the last 18 top picks in the draft have never been to the pro bowl so a lot of teams seem to be whiffing on the top pcks
Because teams keep drafting these freak athletes (like Clowney and Garrett) who make one or two unbelievable plays a game (and nothing else) ... instead of the really good athlete with an incredible motor who makes good plays all over the field ... game in and game out.
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  #664  
Old 01-11-17, 02:51 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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In that same time frame, 10 of the last 18 #2s havent made it either although I could see Mariota and possibly wentz going forward.

FUnny enough....in the last 18 drafts the 2 picks have appeared in more pro bowls than the top picks...by my count!
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  #665  
Old 01-11-17, 02:54 PM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is offline
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I get that teams with average QB's have won Super Bowls, but that's the exception to the rule. The Super Bowl winning QB's have been guys like Bart Starr, Len Dawson, Joe Namath, Johnny Unitas, Bob Griese, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theisman, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Brett Favre, John Elway. Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and the like. You'll notice most of those are generally Hall of Fame talents. Sure, there are Jeff Hostettlers and Trent Dilfers who have won a Super Bowl, but they are the exception to the rule.

If you have a bad QB (e.g. Kaepernik), you'll usually have a bad team. Average or just above average QB (e.g. Dalton), you'll rarely be anything more than an above average team.

I'm not saying any of these prospects is THE GUY, but of they think he is, they have to take him.
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  #666  
Old 01-11-17, 02:56 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Let's not forget Kaepernik started in the Super Bowl and lost by 3.
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  #667  
Old 01-11-17, 03:03 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Let's not forget Kaepernik started in the Super Bowl and lost by 3.
True.

Until the league figured out how to play against that read option. Since then it really has not been working very well for anyone.
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  #668  
Old 01-11-17, 03:26 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
True.

Until the league figured out how to play against that read option. Since then it really has not been working very well for anyone.
Well that and Frank Gore and Vernon Davis got even older and left while Alex Boone and Michael Crabtree left for greener pastures.
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  #669  
Old 01-11-17, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Can you name 3 of those QBs with 3 or even 2 of those years left in the tank that have been traded in the last 30 years ? I can't.
The Browns don't need three QBs; they just need one. Sam Bradford seems to qualify.

http://www.nfl.com/player/sambradfor...95/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...wo-draft-picks

People can say what they want about Bradford, but he has delivered on his end of the bargain in Minnesota. If Minnesota can find someone, why can't the Browns?

Hell, why can't the Browns make a play for Bradford, since the Vikings already have Bridgewater?
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  #670  
Old 01-11-17, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by FormerWildcat View Post
The Browns don't need three QBs; they just need one. Sam Bradford seems to qualify.

http://www.nfl.com/player/sambradfor...95/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...wo-draft-picks

People can say what they want about Bradford, but he has delivered on his end of the bargain in Minnesota. If Minnesota can find someone, why can't the Browns?

Hell, why can't the Browns make a play for Bradford, since the Vikings already have Bridgewater?
Vikes Zimmer said that Bradford has earned the right........in a discussion about starting next year.
They will NOT get rid of him until they know for certain that Bridgewater recovers and can play well so he wont be going anywhere soon.

Not many QB's switch and are successful. Manning, but that was an outlier. Alex Smith but he wasnt that great in SF and got into a good situation.

Of course Brett Favre but that was at the tail end as well.

Just not many leave and are successful because it is tough enough to have 1 good QB, let alone 2.

They either need to draft one, trade for Garapollo, take a wing-and-a-prayer for Romo...not a whole lot of options out there. There are always guys who have been backups, like Garapollo, who are just unknowns.

Landry Jones is likely gone, McCarron from the Bengals so who knows. Tyrod Taylor was that guy a couple years ago. DOubtful the bengals would trade McCarron to a division foe. If I were cincy, I would keep him until the very end of the preseason next year to see if some starter gets hurt and someone is desperate. Bengals would be better of keeping him just in case Dalton goes down. Sure, they miss out on draft picks but at least have a competent backup to compete next year.
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  #671  
Old 01-11-17, 04:57 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
8 of the last 18 top picks in the draft have never been to the pro bowl so a lot of teams seem to be whiffing on the top pcks
And that's why you could play the "They coulda had ______, but those idiots took ____" game with any team.

The Browns have missed more than the others have, so they suck.
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  #672  
Old 01-11-17, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Vikes Zimmer said that Bradford has earned the right........in a discussion about starting next year.
They will NOT get rid of him until they know for certain that Bridgewater recovers and can play well so he wont be going anywhere soon.

Not many QB's switch and are successful. Manning, but that was an outlier. Alex Smith but he wasnt that great in SF and got into a good situation.

Of course Brett Favre but that was at the tail end as well.

Just not many leave and are successful because it is tough enough to have 1 good QB, let alone 2.

They either need to draft one, trade for Garapollo, take a wing-and-a-prayer for Romo...not a whole lot of options out there. There are always guys who have been backups, like Garapollo, who are just unknowns.

Landry Jones is likely gone, McCarron from the Bengals so who knows. Tyrod Taylor was that guy a couple years ago. DOubtful the bengals would trade McCarron to a division foe. If I were cincy, I would keep him until the very end of the preseason next year to see if some starter gets hurt and someone is desperate. Bengals would be better of keeping him just in case Dalton goes down. Sure, they miss out on draft picks but at least have a competent backup to compete next year.
I was mostly being facetious about getting Bradford this year. My more basic point is that there will be "good enough" veteran QBs available in the future for whom the Browns could trade.

I don't know who they are right now, but I'm pretty confident one will be there. In the meantime, the Browns need to build a team that a "good enough" veteran QB would agree to be traded to it.

IMO, probably 75% of the current starting lineup should be backups. So, that presents a lot of opportunities to draft guys who can really contribute, if only the Browns could figure out how to actually draft starters.

It's not as if the bar is that high right now; it makes you wonder how they could have so many draft picks & still end up with a D+ draft. It should be almost impossible for the Browns to do any worse than a C in the draft, considering how bad their roster sucks right now.

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  #673  
Old 01-11-17, 05:15 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by FormerWildcat View Post
I was mostly being facetious about getting Bradford this year. My more basic point is that there will be "good enough" veteran QBs available in the future for whom the Browns could trade.

I don't know who they are right now, but I'm pretty confident one will be there. In the meantime, the Browns need to build a team that a "good enough" veteran QB would agree to be traded to it.

IMO, probably 75% of the current starting lineup should be backups. So, that presents a lot of opportunities to draft guys who can really contribute, if only the Browns could figure out how to actually draft starters.

It's not as if the bar is that high right now; it makes you wonder how they could have so many draft picks & still end up with a D+ draft. It should be almost impossible for the Browns to do any worse than a C in the draft, considering how bad their roster sucks right now.

History doesnt really support that claim though.
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  #674  
Old 01-11-17, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
History doesnt really support that claim though.
I just cited Sam Bradford right off the top of my head. I only had to go back one year to find an example already.
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  #675  
Old 01-11-17, 05:18 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by FormerWildcat View Post
I just cited Sam Bradford right off the top of my head. I only had to go back one year to find an example already.
Okay you go ahead and build the browns future on getting a good starting veteran qb via trade.


We will just sit back and enjoy the dumpster fire.


Either through the draft and develop one, or hope someone like Garrapolo is worth trading for.
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  #676  
Old 01-11-17, 05:25 PM
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We will just sit back and enjoy the dumpster fire.
It's not as if what they've been doing thus far is working wonders. How else would you describe the current situation?
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  #677  
Old 01-11-17, 05:27 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by FormerWildcat View Post
It's not as if what they've been doing thus far is working wonders. How else would you describe the current situation?
Dumpster fire!

True, nothing has been working. That much we can agree on!

Pretty much any other position I would agree that you can find a good one, even great, in free agencyor a trade, but QB's........not so sure. There are only 32 starting QBs in the NFL, and I would maybe call 20 of them solid to good enough.

So the basic options are:
1. Draft.
2. Sign an older dude, like Romo, who only has maybe a few years or
3. Take a chance on a backup like Garrapolo when/if they come available. He and McCarron are what come to mind at this point. Even at that, a good enough one will have a few options and Cleveland isnt at the top of many QBs list to willingly sign with.

Last edited by thavoice; 01-11-17 at 05:41 PM..
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  #678  
Old 01-11-17, 05:41 PM
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The Browns have a "good enough" veteran in RG3 or McCown, though Kessler is probably the one who should start.
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  #679  
Old 01-11-17, 11:10 PM
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The Browns have a "good enough" veteran in RG3 or McCown, though Kessler is probably the one who should start.
I guess if I was a Steelers fan I would want the Browns to keep RGIII
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  #680  
Old 01-11-17, 11:18 PM
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No, I think they should play Kessler. But Hue seems to like RG3.
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  #681  
Old 01-11-17, 11:33 PM
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No, I think they should play Kessler. But Hue seems to like RG3.
I like Kessler ... with a little work and a good team around him, he could be a slightly above average QB ... much like Andy Dalton ... to me that might be worse than being horrible ... stuck in the middle might be one of the worst things in professional sports. I hope Hue, or others in the organization, realize that they need to move on from RGIII.

While I like Kessler ... I think his upside is limited ... that is why I would gamble on Trubisky who I think his upside is much higher ... he reminds me of a cross between Mariota and Rodgers ... most likely somewhere in between. He could be an elite QB ... Kessler, at best, above average. I like the idea of having both and let them fight it out (and push each other)
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  #682  
Old 01-11-17, 11:37 PM
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The numbers Kessler put up as a rookie in that offense tell me his potential is probably better than Andy Dalton.
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  #683  
Old 01-12-17, 08:10 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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The numbers Kessler put up as a rookie in that offense tell me his potential is probably better than Andy Dalton.
Slow your roll son. Kessler's ceiling is Dalton.
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  #684  
Old 01-12-17, 08:31 AM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is offline
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Originally Posted by joesports View Post
I like Kessler ... with a little work and a good team around him, he could be a slightly above average QB ... much like Andy Dalton ... to me that might be worse than being horrible ... stuck in the middle might be one of the worst things in professional sports. I hope Hue, or others in the organization, realize that they need to move on from RGIII.

While I like Kessler ... I think his upside is limited ... that is why I would gamble on Trubisky who I think his upside is much higher ... he reminds me of a cross between Mariota and Rodgers ... most likely somewhere in between. He could be an elite QB ... Kessler, at best, above average. I like the idea of having both and let them fight it out (and push each other)
I just can't get there with Trubisky given the limited sample size.

Assuming Kessler is another Andy Dalton, which I'm not convinced he is, I don't want the Browns to strive to be a Bengals level team. I think 'stuck in the middle" is a pretty good description. It is certainly worlds above the d0g$h!+ team they are now, but let's aim higher.
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  #685  
Old 01-12-17, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
I just can't get there with Trubisky given the limited sample size.

Assuming Kessler is another Andy Dalton, which I'm not convinced he is, I don't want the Browns to strive to be a Bengals level team. I think 'stuck in the middle" is a pretty good description. It is certainly worlds above the d0g$h!+ team they are now, but let's aim higher.
I completely agree with you on your second point about Kessler and the Bengals .... I disagree with you about Trubisky. I have watched nearly all of his games on video ... while the sample size is small, I am still convinced he has all the tools to be really good. I am also a little leary on passing on him because of this ... it sorta reminds me of when the Browns passed up on Roethlisberger because he was from Miami of Ohio in favor of Jeff Garcia ... it has been a decade for me of watching the player I wanted to draft win the division year after year. This will be even worse if the Browns pass on a Mentor boy and he goes on to become a star will be unbearable.
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  #686  
Old 01-12-17, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Slow your roll son. Kessler's ceiling is Dalton.
Which isnt that bad at all, hasnt he made the pro bowl?


Browns should be slobbering over the chance to ahve a guy like Dalton
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  #687  
Old 01-12-17, 11:15 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Correct. I believe he backed his way in (injuries) but nonetheless, infinitely better than anything the Browns have had.
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  #688  
Old 01-12-17, 11:29 AM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Correct. I believe he backed his way in (injuries) but nonetheless, infinitely better than anything the Browns have had.
That's a pretty wide net. LOL.
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  #689  
Old 01-12-17, 12:40 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
I'm sorry you can't see that, as it stands right this second, Clowney wasn't worth the #1 pick. You can speculate all you want on what he will do, but the fact remains, right now he has played essentially one year and that one year was a borderline Pro Bowl. I'm not sure about you but if I'm drafting someone with the #1 pick I want them to play every year and at a high level every year. Given the Browns lack of success for the last 20 years though, I can see why you would think Clowney is deserving the #1 pick. Sometimes I forget who I'm dealing with and have to temper expectations greatly.

Just because something is beyond your limited mental capacity, does not make someone else an idiot.
Because NO ONE in the NFL EVER would emphasize the first healthy season of a 23 year old player over previous injury-plagued seasons in determining his REAL worth, right ?

You're being an idiot!! Even one with my "limited mental capacity" can plainly see THAT!
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  #690  
Old 01-12-17, 12:44 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Clowney could lose his legs tomorrow. You're saying that, in this hypothetical where he loses his legs tomorrow, he was worth the #1 pick because he played in 1 borderline Pro Bowl season and didn't play in the other 2? Man, the Browns really did a number on you.
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