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  #61  
Old 01-29-14, 09:46 AM
JElder JElder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Your statement "nobody possessing the ball" means that team control was not established. Absent team control inbounds, you cannot have a backcourt violation.
Two more over and back questions:

Team A has possession, B1 taps the ball away from A1....A1 touches the ball last before going into the backcourt and then touches it first in the backcourt...Over and back?

Same situation as above except...A1 touches the ball last in the front court and A1's teammate (A2) is the player to retrieve the ball in the backcourt...Over and Back?
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  #62  
Old 01-29-14, 10:46 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JElder View Post
Two more over and back questions:

Team A has possession, B1 taps the ball away from A1....A1 touches the ball last before going into the backcourt and then touches it first in the backcourt...Over and back?
Yes



Quote:
Originally Posted by JElder View Post
Same situation as above except...A1 touches the ball last in the front court and A1's teammate (A2) is the player to retrieve the ball in the backcourt...Over and Back?
Yes

In both cases, Team control did not end. A was the last team to touch in the front court and first to touch in the back court.

Violation on A

Last edited by AllSports12; 01-29-14 at 11:01 PM.
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  #63  
Old 01-30-14, 08:28 PM
jtk jtk is offline
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not a question b/c i know the answer. just venting about the officiating i've witnessed this season. now this is middle school so i know its not the best to begin with but you should be able to understand the basic rules to do a game sanctioned by the state of ohio, at least i thought so. plus, i'm an official and it makes us officials that know the rules look terrible.

here are 2 things im talking about

1) the ref told the coach of my nephews team that the ball on a free throw attempt can hit the backboard or the rim and it is legal.

2) different ref, but he called a offensive foul on a screen. he said the offensive player didn't give defender 3 feet to get by the screen.

just a couple of the things i saw/heard

jtk
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  #64  
Old 01-30-14, 10:28 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by jtk View Post
not a question b/c i know the answer. just venting about the officiating i've witnessed this season. now this is middle school so i know its not the best to begin with but you should be able to understand the basic rules to do a game sanctioned by the state of ohio, at least i thought so. plus, i'm an official and it makes us officials that know the rules look terrible.

here are 2 things im talking about

1) the ref told the coach of my nephews team that the ball on a free throw attempt can hit the backboard or the rim and it is legal.

2) different ref, but he called a offensive foul on a screen. he said the offensive player didn't give defender 3 feet to get by the screen.

just a couple of the things i saw/heard

jtk
()
1) He may have have got confused with the rule allowing the players to leave the lane when the ball hits the rim or the backboard.

2) First, as a ref you should know that there is no such thing as an offensive foul. That term is found nowhere under the Foul Definitions listed under Rule 4-19. Next, if the player being screened was moving, time and distance is a factor and the screener must allow the player one or two normal steps or strides to allow him to avoid contact. (Rule 4-40-5)

The official may have described it incorrectly, but he was on the right track.
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  #65  
Old 01-31-14, 12:01 AM
jtk jtk is offline
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jtk has a little shameless behaviour in the past
just venting a little, i don't mean any harm.

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Last edited by AllSports12; 01-31-14 at 06:43 AM.
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  #66  
Old 01-31-14, 06:27 AM
madworld madworld is offline
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Jtk
It sounds like this could be an innocent bystander not hearing the entire explanation. Like allsports12 said they were on the right track. (Offensive foul? Lol)

Allsports
I recently saw officials at a jv game stop a team from huddling prior to free throw attempts. The one official told the players it wasn't allowed in the rules then told the coach they were trying to move the game along. The coach told his players to continue to do it because they were communicating. The official then told the coach he would assess a technical the next time they did it.
Give me your take on the situation and what could have been done or should have been done.
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  #67  
Old 01-31-14, 08:10 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madworld View Post


Allsports
I recently saw officials at a jv game stop a team from huddling prior to free throw attempts. The one official told the players it wasn't allowed in the rules then told the coach they were trying to move the game along. The coach told his players to continue to do it because they were communicating. The official then told the coach he would assess a technical the next time they did it.
Give me your take on the situation and what could have been done or should have been done.
We all can thank Coach K and Duke for this.

If a team huddles in the lane prior to a free throw, and in the judgment of the official, delays the official's administration of the free throws, a delay of game warning is issued,

The warning is noted in the book and any further violation that meets the provisions listed under the delay of game rule are penalized with a team technical foul. If the team has already been issued a delay of game warning, then this act, if in the judgment of the official delays his administration of the free throw, is penalized with a team technical foul.

These should be rare..... Good game management skills such as talking to the kids, getting them lined up quickly...etc, should be used to prevent this from happening.
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  #68  
Old 02-02-14, 08:20 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Pass inside to the center. Defender intentionally grabs the back of the jersey to stop an easy layup. Center hits the layup, official calls an intentional foul. Counts the basket. How many free throws are given to the offense?
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  #69  
Old 02-02-14, 09:01 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Pass inside to the center. Defender intentionally grabs the back of the jersey to stop an easy layup. Center hits the layup, official calls an intentional foul. Counts the basket. How many free throws are given to the offense?
Two.

All intentional fouls are penalized with two free throws except when a three point field goal attempt us unsuccessful. Three free throws are awarded in that situation.
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  #70  
Old 02-04-14, 01:57 PM
CincyBballFTW CincyBballFTW is offline
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Team A and Team B are tied in OT with under 3 seconds to play. Team A is inbounding the ball off of a turnover coming out of a timeout. Inbounding the ball from underneath their defensive basket. Player X is told he can't move once he has the ball. Player X is given the ball by the ref and proceeds to pick up both feet multiple times, clearly picking them up, but may have only moved 6 inches. Ball is passed in with no call made team A proceeds down court for possible game winning shot.

Should the ball have been turned over to team B to inbound from that spot or was it correctly called?
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  #71  
Old 02-04-14, 03:11 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyBballFTW View Post
Team A and Team B are tied in OT with under 3 seconds to play. Team A is inbounding the ball off of a turnover coming out of a timeout. Inbounding the ball from underneath their defensive basket. Player X is told he can't move once he has the ball. Player X is given the ball by the ref and proceeds to pick up both feet multiple times, clearly picking them up, but may have only moved 6 inches. Ball is passed in with no call made team A proceeds down court for possible game winning shot.

Should the ball have been turned over to team B to inbound from that spot or was it correctly called?
No violation.

The spot for a throw in is actually 3 feet wide and is unlimited in depth.(unless constricted by a wall, bleachers...etc)

A player can move by any means as long as he/she keeps one foot in that designated area. There are no restrictions with regards to pivot foot, the player can dribble the ball, and he/she can jump up and down.

All without penalty
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  #72  
Old 02-05-14, 10:59 AM
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111411 111411 is offline
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Player A fouled with two tenths of a second left, tie game. Player A hits first free throw, misses the second shot on purpose. Player B, from opposing team, grabs rebound, whirls, and throws the ball toward his basket, swishing the shot. Ball is released before the buzzer. Officials waved it off. Correct call, or not?
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  #73  
Old 02-05-14, 12:08 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 111411 View Post
Player A fouled with two tenths of a second left, tie game. Player A hits first free throw, misses the second shot on purpose. Player B, from opposing team, grabs rebound, whirls, and throws the ball toward his basket, swishing the shot. Ball is released before the buzzer. Officials waved it off. Correct call, or not?
Correct.

By rule, the only way a goal can be scored when the clock reads 0.3 or less is by tap. Once a player possessed the ball, he cannot score.
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  #74  
Old 02-05-14, 12:19 PM
3out2in 3out2in is offline
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I'd like to get the ref's thoughts on the emphasis on cutting down on perimeter contact. My buddies and I have discussed this ad nauseum at games and while we applaud the idea, it gives too much advantage to the dribbler if they are not going to call carrying or the two step start. These last 2 things seem to be an increasing part of the game that are just accepted. What are your thoughts.
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  #75  
Old 02-05-14, 12:35 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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The emphasis on perimeter contact is an NCAA emphasis, not a High School emphasis.

That being said, rough play has always been an emphasis and the Federation this year uses the terminology, "rhythm, speed, balance, quickness" (RSBQ) to help identify illegal contact.

Any contact that (in the judgment of the official) interrupts RSBQ should be considered illegal and penalized.

Last edited by AllSports12; 02-05-14 at 12:48 PM.
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  #76  
Old 02-05-14, 06:06 PM
3out2in 3out2in is offline
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And I applaud that but only if that RSBQ isn't gained (as it so frequently is) by the 2 step start or the carry.
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  #77  
Old 02-07-14, 10:05 PM
NEOHGTI NEOHGTI is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3out2in View Post
And I applaud that but only if that RSBQ isn't gained (as it so frequently is) by the 2 step start or the carry.
What exactly do you mean by a '2 step' start? FWIW - if you're implying traveling, traveling is mostly defined, by rule, by the action of the pivot foot - returning it to the floor without an attempt at: shooting; passing;...or lifting it before releasing the ball to start a dribble. Number of 'steps' has nothing to do with traveling - ever. Only the action of the pivot foot - with a held ball and its relationship to the start of the dribble, shot, or pass - matters....or the knee/other part of the body touching the floor with a held ball.

Last edited by NEOHGTI; 02-07-14 at 10:31 PM.
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  #78  
Old 02-08-14, 11:41 PM
3out2in 3out2in is offline
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It may be 'mostly' defined by the action of the pivot foot and nothing to do with number of steps, but when a ballhandler picks up his pivot foot then takes another step without starting a dribble, its a travel. I see players get away with this a lot. Thanks. I appreciate your responses.
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  #79  
Old 02-09-14, 11:14 AM
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How many quarters can a high school player participate in on any given day? I was under the impression that it's 5 quarters?
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  #80  
Old 02-09-14, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
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How many quarters can a high school player participate in on any given day? I was under the impression that it's 5 quarters?
That's correct.
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  #81  
Old 02-09-14, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 111411 View Post
That's correct.
Interesting, thank you!
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  #82  
Old 02-09-14, 12:19 PM
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Ooops, one more question. Does that rule apply to just the JV/Varsity?
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  #83  
Old 02-09-14, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comet View Post
Ooops, one more question. Does that rule apply to just the JV/Varsity?
Freshman/JV/Varsity. I just looked it up on the OHSAA site. Also, 110 quarters per year.
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  #84  
Old 02-09-14, 12:29 PM
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Thanks again!
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  #85  
Old 02-12-14, 03:49 PM
opmisk opmisk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOHGTI View Post
What exactly do you mean by a '2 step' start? FWIW - if you're implying traveling, traveling is mostly defined, by rule, by the action of the pivot foot - returning it to the floor without an attempt at: shooting; passing;...or lifting it before releasing the ball to start a dribble. Number of 'steps' has nothing to do with traveling - ever. Only the action of the pivot foot - with a held ball and its relationship to the start of the dribble, shot, or pass - matters....or the knee/other part of the body touching the floor with a held ball.
Using your wording, how many times is a player allowed to return his pivot foot to the floor while shooting or passing or before beginning a dribble ?

If it's not about steps can he simply put the ball under his arm and run to the basket from half-court claiming he was in the act of shooting or passing ?

Going to the basket used to allow a step and a half, with the half being your pivot foot returning to the ground during your shot attempt. We now see 3 and sometimes 4 steps going to the basket without violation.
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  #86  
Old 02-12-14, 07:18 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Situation: A defender is in a defensive stance with his arms wide and head leaning out over his feet. Before dribbling, the offensive player swings his elbow and strikes the defender in the cheek. No other contact between players. What is the call?
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  #87  
Old 02-12-14, 10:46 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Situation: A defender is in a defensive stance with his arms wide and head leaning out over his feet. Before dribbling, the offensive player swings his elbow and strikes the defender in the cheek. No other contact between players. What is the call?
Contact above the shoulders with a moving elbow is at minimum an intentional foul and potentially a flagrant foul.
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  #88  
Old 02-17-14, 06:32 PM
NEOHGTI NEOHGTI is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opmisk View Post
Using your wording, how many times is a player allowed to return his pivot foot to the floor while shooting or passing or before beginning a dribble ?

If it's not about steps can he simply put the ball under his arm and run to the basket from half-court claiming he was in the act of shooting or passing ?

Going to the basket used to allow a step and a half, with the half being your pivot foot returning to the ground during your shot attempt. We now see 3 and sometimes 4 steps going to the basket without violation.
It's not my wording - it's NFHS. There simply is no 'counting' of steps in NFHS.

The pivot foot cannot be placed back on the floor prior to a: pass or shot release...and it can't be lifted prior to starting a dribble (that may be the crux of the 'two-step' referred to). It's way way way way way easier to identify traveling if you pay attention to the establishment of the pivot foot, period. And frankly - not paying attention to that is the number one reason most fans (and even some coaches) incorrectly howl 'WALK' or 'TRAVEL' from the stands/bench.

For the sake of sharing the info, here is the definition - per NFHS. Don't bother counting steps if you're really interested in knowing what traveling is or isn't. It will only clutter your mind.

SECTION 44 TRAVELING
Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in any direction in
excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements
are as follows:
ART. 1 . . . A player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor, may pivot,
using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.
ART. 2 . . . A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop,
and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land
on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both.
Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
ART. 3 . . . After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is
released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball
is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.
ART. 4 . . . After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot:
a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the floor before
the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.
ART. 5 . . . A player holding the ball:
a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than
hand or foot.
b. After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand
or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

Last edited by NEOHGTI; 02-17-14 at 06:47 PM.
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  #89  
Old 02-17-14, 06:41 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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To add to the good explanation above......

When training new officials on the subject of traveling, the use of two different color shoes for the player with the ball helps the new official identify the pivot foot.

If you don't know what the status of the pivot foot is, then knowing what a player can or cannot do with that pivot foot is useless.
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  #90  
Old 02-17-14, 06:55 PM
NEOHGTI NEOHGTI is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
To add to the good explanation above......

When training new officials on the subject of traveling, the use of two different color shoes for the player with the ball helps the new official identify the pivot foot.

If you don't know what the status of the pivot foot is, then knowing what a player can or cannot do with that pivot foot is useless.
Perfection. Love the different colored shoes tool. My class instructor, years ago, didn't do that, but it was drilled into our skulls to know which foot was the pivot at all times.
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