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  #331  
Old 12-04-16, 08:25 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
You are preaching to the choir here, as I agree 100% with you. There have been many times over the years where I either forced a switch because of what was happening on the sidelines..... sometimes to get myself out of there, sometimes to get a partner out of there...... Game Management 101.


As far as the FED goes with changing the mechanic, it's coming. Typically, the FED is a couple of years behind NCAA. That was the norm when Struckoff was the editor of the rules (college ties) and it has continued since she has moved on.
Agree.

Perplexes me seeing that NCAA-M is the only level I can think of where the calling official goes opposite. And this was the FED mechanic within the past, what, 10-15 years? And now they want to go back to the way it used to be? Ah well, guess that will mean less thinking for me switching between high school and college games. Just hope that we can finally ditch one-hand reporting, as well (did I mention that yet?).
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  #332  
Old 12-07-16, 09:03 PM
oxat622 oxat622 is offline
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Cut ahead to 1:41:35. From a game last night. Player continues to go dunk after he's fouled in the back court. Should that have been a technical foul? And let's say the defender grabs his jersey and he still continues to dunk, and the officials call an intentional foul on the defender and a technical on the dunk. How do you administer what happens next?
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  #333  
Old 12-07-16, 09:56 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by oxat622 View Post


Cut ahead to 1:41:35. From a game last night. Player continues to go dunk after he's fouled in the back court. Should that have been a technical foul? And let's say the defender grabs his jersey and he still continues to dunk, and the officials call an intentional foul on the defender and a technical on the dunk. How do you administer what happens next?
By strict enforcement of the rule this was a dunk of a dead ball, which results in a technical foul......

Now, things to consider......

Seemed to be somewhat of a weak whistle (I couldn't hear it at first look of this play) so you can take that into consideration. You also look at the entirety of the play and can make a case that the play took only two dribbles after the grab before he dunked the ball. There was no hesitation and it wasn't a "look at me" type of play...... which is the reason why the rule is there in the first place.

In my opinion, this was a good no-call on the dunk.

If there was an intentional foul called, followed by a dead ball dunk that was penalized with the technical foul...... The player that was fouled would be awarded two free throws for the intentional foul, followed by the opponent being awarded two free throws (attempted by any team member) as well as the ball to be put in play at the division line opposite the scorer's table.
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  #334  
Old 12-10-16, 11:27 PM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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JV game, halftime... both teams are in the locker rooms. Varsity players come out and shoot around. One of them dunks the ball. JV players come back out. 3rd qtr starts with two free throws rewarded to one of the team as a technical was called on the dunk by a varsity player at half. Was that a correct call?

Also, if a bench technical is called. Would a 2nd technical on the bench cause the head coach to be ejected?
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  #335  
Old 12-11-16, 10:48 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by vamp2syd View Post
JV game, halftime... both teams are in the locker rooms. Varsity players come out and shoot around. One of them dunks the ball. JV players come back out. 3rd qtr starts with two free throws rewarded to one of the team as a technical was called on the dunk by a varsity player at half. Was that a correct call?

Also, if a bench technical is called. Would a 2nd technical on the bench cause the head coach to be ejected?
The NFHS rules aren't clear on this. By definition, the varsity player does not meet the criteria of being a player, bench personnel, or team member of the game being played.

However, this has become more and more prevalent over the past 7-8 years, causing the OHSAA in 2012 to mandate a technical foul being assessed when the officials working the game witness this action. The technical foul would be assessed indirectly to the head coach. If this was the first or second indirect technical foul assessed to the head coach and he hasn't been assessed a direct technical foul, he would remain eligible to coach. However he does lose his coaching box privileges for the remainder of the game. The technical foul also counts as a team foul in the second half.

I am curious on this..... with the teams in the locker room, where were the officials who were working the game?

Last edited by AllSports12; 12-11-16 at 11:00 AM.
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  #336  
Old 12-14-16, 06:03 PM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The NFHS rules aren't clear on this. By definition, the varsity player does not meet the criteria of being a player, bench personnel, or team member of the game being played.

However, this has become more and more prevalent over the past 7-8 years, causing the OHSAA in 2012 to mandate a technical foul being assessed when the officials working the game witness this action. The technical foul would be assessed indirectly to the head coach. If this was the first or second indirect technical foul assessed to the head coach and he hasn't been assessed a direct technical foul, he would remain eligible to coach. However he does lose his coaching box privileges for the remainder of the game. The technical foul also counts as a team foul in the second half.

I am curious on this..... with the teams in the locker room, where were the officials who were working the game?
The officials left the court but they came back out later while some of the varsity players were still shooting around. I would guess it was about just over a minute until the 3rd qtr started. I do not know exactly when the technical was called but I do not think any of the JV players had come out yet.

As for the head coach getting ejected one of the coaches on the bench got a technical. The other official came over and told the head coach he had to sit down and he said no I do not, the technical was not called on me it was called on him (pointed to the other coach). The official insisted that he had to sit down and he refused so he got T'd up and ejected.
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  #337  
Old 12-15-16, 12:09 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by vamp2syd View Post
As for the head coach getting ejected one of the coaches on the bench got a technical. The other official came over and told the head coach he had to sit down and he said no I do not, the technical was not called on me it was called on him (pointed to the other coach). The official insisted that he had to sit down and he refused so he got T'd up and ejected.
The coach needs to get in the rule book and keep his assistants under control.

The coaching box is lost whenever the head coach is directly or indirectly assessed a technical foul.
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  #338  
Old 12-15-16, 08:17 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by vamp2syd View Post
The officials left the court but they came back out later while some of the varsity players were still shooting around. I would guess it was about just over a minute until the 3rd qtr started. I do not know exactly when the technical was called but I do not think any of the JV players had come out yet.
I assume the officials witnessed the varsity player dunking the ball

Quote:
Originally Posted by vamp2syd View Post
As for the head coach getting ejected one of the coaches on the bench got a technical. The other official came over and told the head coach he had to sit down and he said no I do not, the technical was not called on me it was called on him (pointed to the other coach). The official insisted that he had to sit down and he refused so he got T'd up and ejected.
2 Direct Technical Fouls = Head Coach is Ejected by rule
1 Direct Technical Foul + 2 Indirect Technical Fouls (bench personnel) = Head Coach is ejected by rule
3 Indirect Technical Fouls = Head Coach is ejected by rule

A coach can be ejected for a single Technical Foul if that offense is flagrant. (may have happened here as the threshold for the automatic EJ was not met)

A Head Coach (as noted by zebrastripes) always loses his coaching box privileges if a Technical Foul is assessed to bench personnel.
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  #339  
Old 12-16-16, 09:34 AM
jtk jtk is offline
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not sure what if this is or isn't travel.

if a player is on stomach on ground with ball after a scramble for a loose ball. the player with the ball comes up to their knees?

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  #340  
Old 12-16-16, 09:39 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by jtk View Post
not sure what if this is or isn't travel.

if a player is on stomach on ground with ball after a scramble for a loose ball. the player with the ball comes up to their knees?

jtk
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Travel
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  #341  
Old 12-16-16, 10:24 AM
jtk jtk is offline
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i thought it was, and was called right in the game. then what's the difference if a player is on their back and sits up?

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  #342  
Old 12-16-16, 11:16 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by jtk View Post
i thought it was, and was called right in the game. then what's the difference if a player is on their back and sits up?

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Personally, I don't see any. However, the rules makers (many, many years ago) do not agree and allow for a player laying on his/her back to sit up.

Any attempt by any player to place a foot or knee onto the floor from a position on the ground is a travel.
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  #343  
Old 12-16-16, 12:58 PM
jtk jtk is offline
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thanks for the info.

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  #344  
Old 12-17-16, 03:12 PM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
I assume the officials witnessed the varsity player dunking the ball



2 Direct Technical Fouls = Head Coach is Ejected by rule
1 Direct Technical Foul + 2 Indirect Technical Fouls (bench personnel) = Head Coach is ejected by rule
3 Indirect Technical Fouls = Head Coach is ejected by rule

A coach can be ejected for a single Technical Foul if that offense is flagrant. (may have happened here as the threshold for the automatic EJ was not met)

A Head Coach (as noted by zebrastripes) always loses his coaching box privileges if a Technical Foul is assessed to bench personnel.
Thanks, this team was from Indiana could there be a difference in the rules about losing the coaches box between the two states?
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  #345  
Old 12-17-16, 03:25 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by vamp2syd View Post
Thanks, this team was from Indiana could there be a difference in the rules about losing the coaches box between the two states?
Indiana uses NFHS Rules, so there is no difference.
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  #346  
Old 01-03-17, 03:29 PM
IcyCoolDevil IcyCoolDevil is offline
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I recently attended a high school game in Ohio. Foul called on home team player on defensive end of the floor which is sixth team foul. While the call is being communicated to the table something is said by another home team player and he gets a technical foul for the seventh team foul. The away team is awarded one and the bonus and then two shots before taking the ball out. Does the technical somehow trump the common foul thus making it the seventh team foul (bonus) or did the refs/scorer get this one wrong?
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  #347  
Old 01-03-17, 04:39 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by IcyCoolDevil View Post
I recently attended a high school game in Ohio. Foul called on home team player on defensive end of the floor which is sixth team foul. While the call is being communicated to the table something is said by another home team player and he gets a technical foul for the seventh team foul. The away team is awarded one and the bonus and then two shots before taking the ball out. Does the technical somehow trump the common foul thus making it the seventh team foul (bonus) or did the refs/scorer get this one wrong?
As described, they got it wrong
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  #348  
Old 01-06-17, 08:18 AM
blue60 blue60 is offline
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I have question on loose ball. What would the correct call be in a situation where ball is loose on floor player from team a goes to floor get control of ball. Then player from team b dives on top of player a and grabs ball. In so many cases I have seen this called a jump ball. why is it not a foul?
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  #349  
Old 01-06-17, 11:59 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue60 View Post
I have question on loose ball. What would the correct call be in a situation where ball is loose on floor player from team a goes to floor get control of ball. Then player from team b dives on top of player a and grabs ball. In so many cases I have seen this called a jump ball. why is it not a foul?
In your situation, if the Team B player literally dives on top of the prone Team A player who has control of the ball and makes significant contact, that should be a foul.

Another note: remember that not all contact is a foul. In fact, the rules state that there may even be situations where severe contact can occur without any foul. When the ball is loose, officials have to judge which player has the advantageous position to get to the ball. If both opponents have an equal opportunity to get the ball, they might collide, yet there's no foul (but the entire gym and both coaches think there should be ). But if a player from behind makes contact that allows him/her an advantage in getting to the ball, that's a foul by rule. Something we hear a lot from coaches and fans are that "He was going for the ball!!!" Going for the ball means absolutely nothing if a player in a disadvantageous position makes illegal contact that allows him/her to gain an advantage in getting the ball.
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  #350  
Old 01-06-17, 02:55 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
In your situation, if the Team B player literally dives on top of the prone Team A player who has control of the ball and makes significant contact, that should be a foul.

Another note: remember that not all contact is a foul. In fact, the rules state that there may even be situations where severe contact can occur without any foul. When the ball is loose, officials have to judge which player has the advantageous position to get to the ball. If both opponents have an equal opportunity to get the ball, they might collide, yet there's no foul (but the entire gym and both coaches think there should be ). But if a player from behind makes contact that allows him/her an advantage in getting to the ball, that's a foul by rule. Something we hear a lot from coaches and fans are that "He was going for the ball!!!" Going for the ball means absolutely nothing if a player in a disadvantageous position makes illegal contact that allows him/her to gain an advantage in getting the ball.
This was and still remains a point of emphasis from the 2008-2009 season.
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  #351  
Old 01-06-17, 04:48 PM
blue60 blue60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
In your situation, if the Team B player literally dives on top of the prone Team A player who has control of the ball and makes significant contact, that should be a foul.

Another note: remember that not all contact is a foul. In fact, the rules state that there may even be situations where severe contact can occur without any foul. When the ball is loose, officials have to judge which player has the advantageous position to get to the ball. If both opponents have an equal opportunity to get the ball, they might collide, yet there's no foul (but the entire gym and both coaches think there should be ). But if a player from behind makes contact that allows him/her an advantage in getting to the ball, that's a foul by rule. Something we hear a lot from coaches and fans are that "He was going for the ball!!!" Going for the ball means absolutely nothing if a player in a disadvantageous position makes illegal contact that allows him/her to gain an advantage in getting the ball.
Thanks that helps somewhat.
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  #352  
Old 01-08-17, 12:21 PM
PICnROLL PICnROLL is offline
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Question on a technical

Break away (at half court) a player reaches out and fouls... Due to crowd noise or whatever, player with the ball does not hear the whistle or ignores the whistle and continues on and slam dunks... Ref is this a technical or not? This not a bang bang play as the player and defensive players continued on from half court.

We had the exact same play in back to back games... 1st game our player was given a Technical. Second game the player on the opposing team was not given a technical. Ref stated the player did not hear the whistle. How do you know he didn't hear the whistle?

IMO it needs to be called the same way as you cannot tell what a player thinks of hears... Correct?

Bad call on incident #2???
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  #353  
Old 01-08-17, 01:22 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by PICnROLL View Post
Break away (at half court) a player reaches out and fouls... Due to crowd noise or whatever, player with the ball does not hear the whistle or ignores the whistle and continues on and slam dunks... Ref is this a technical or not? This not a bang bang play as the player and defensive players continued on from half court.

We had the exact same play in back to back games... 1st game our player was given a Technical. Second game the player on the opposing team was not given a technical. Ref stated the player did not hear the whistle. How do you know he didn't hear the whistle?

IMO it needs to be called the same way as you cannot tell what a player thinks of hears... Correct?

Bad call on incident #2???
A very similar play was presented not too long ago... the answer I gave to that play is going to be the same answer for your play....

Note, without video, there is no way to determine whether or not the judgment of the official was correct in your situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxat622 View Post


Cut ahead to 1:41:35. From a game last night. Player continues to go dunk after he's fouled in the back court. Should that have been a technical foul? And let's say the defender grabs his jersey and he still continues to dunk, and the officials call an intentional foul on the defender and a technical on the dunk. How do you administer what happens next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
By strict enforcement of the rule this was a dunk of a dead ball, which results in a technical foul......

Now, things to consider......

Seemed to be somewhat of a weak whistle (I couldn't hear it at first look of this play) so you can take that into consideration. You also look at the entirety of the play and can make a case that the play took only two dribbles after the grab before he dunked the ball. There was no hesitation and it wasn't a "look at me" type of play...... which is the reason why the rule is there in the first place.

In my opinion, this was a good no-call on the dunk.

If there was an intentional foul called, followed by a dead ball dunk that was penalized with the technical foul...... The player that was fouled would be awarded two free throws for the intentional foul, followed by the opponent being awarded two free throws (attempted by any team member) as well as the ball to be put in play at the division line opposite the scorer's table.
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  #354  
Old 01-10-17, 09:30 AM
bengals wrestling bengals wrestling is offline
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Varsity head coach, sitting on the bench during a JV game, gets called for two technical fouls within a minute of each other an is ejected from the JV game. No varsity game followed since it was an freshman / JV doubleheader. Does this effect his coaching the next varsity game?
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  #355  
Old 01-10-17, 10:07 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by bengals wrestling View Post
Varsity head coach, sitting on the bench during a JV game, gets called for two technical fouls within a minute of each other an is ejected from the JV game. No varsity game followed since it was an freshman / JV doubleheader. Does this effect his coaching the next varsity game?
In Ohio, the regulation stipulates that you are to be suspended for the next two contests played at the level of the contest you were ejected in.

In this situation, the VHC would be ineligible to coach in a game until after the next two JV games were played....... if it's the final JV game of the year, he's done until next year.
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  #356  
Old 01-16-17, 06:16 AM
fortfan fortfan is offline
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Visiting team player is shooting free throws. A member of the home student section pops his popcorn bag as the shooter shoots. An announcement is made about "noisemakers". A couple minutes later same thing happens. Shooter misses free throw. Announcement is made about popping popcorn bags and threat of technical foul if it happens again. Visiting coach argues that a technical foul should be called because a warning had already been given. No tech was called. After halftime the coaches and refs huddled and an explanation was given. What is the rule about noise makers and when should a tech be called?
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  #357  
Old 01-16-17, 10:55 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by fortfan View Post
Visiting team player is shooting free throws. A member of the home student section pops his popcorn bag as the shooter shoots. An announcement is made about "noisemakers". A couple minutes later same thing happens. Shooter misses free throw. Announcement is made about popping popcorn bags and threat of technical foul if it happens again. Visiting coach argues that a technical foul should be called because a warning had already been given. No tech was called. After halftime the coaches and refs huddled and an explanation was given. What is the rule about noise makers and when should a tech be called?
Artificial noisemakers are prohibited by rule, however there is no penalty for this. This is a game management problem. The officials have been instructed to notify (during a time out or intermission) the site manager that it needs to be stopped. If it persists, the officials are to file a game report detailing the matter. At that point, the powers that be will get involved to see to it that it does not happen again.

Any issuance of a technical foul here would be incorrect.
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  #358  
Old 01-24-17, 01:01 PM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Lose Ball, who has the "right" away

Hello, I have seen this a lot this year for some reason and could use some help.

Offense Player A saves the ball from going out of bounds into a neutral Free area (bouncing or even rolling along the ground).

Offense Player B and Defense Player C both go after the ball. Player C goes a bit more aggressively and has the greater contact and recovers the ball. (some times player C may dive and make contact with player B)

Foul is called on Player C.

I usually hear in the stands things yelled like "Both have the right to the ball" and things of that nature, basically indicating that the "tougher" kid/more hustling kid should be allowed to the ball.

How do you call this play? How much contact is allowed for one player to go through another player to get a ball that no one has possession of. I get pushing and stuff like that being a foul, but this is the scenario where its just two kids arriving near simultaneously and mass/nature indicates the winner :-). In my experience, it seems the team that was previously on defense rarely can be the aggressor and the offense has some type of possession still (Even though its "free")
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  #359  
Old 01-25-17, 07:33 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
Hello, I have seen this a lot this year for some reason and could use some help.

Offense Player A saves the ball from going out of bounds into a neutral Free area (bouncing or even rolling along the ground).

Offense Player B and Defense Player C both go after the ball. Player C goes a bit more aggressively and has the greater contact and recovers the ball. (some times player C may dive and make contact with player B)

Foul is called on Player C.

I usually hear in the stands things yelled like "Both have the right to the ball" and things of that nature, basically indicating that the "tougher" kid/more hustling kid should be allowed to the ball.

How do you call this play? How much contact is allowed for one player to go through another player to get a ball that no one has possession of. I get pushing and stuff like that being a foul, but this is the scenario where its just two kids arriving near simultaneously and mass/nature indicates the winner :-). In my experience, it seems the team that was previously on defense rarely can be the aggressor and the offense has some type of possession still (Even though its "free")
A similar question was asked not too long ago regarding plays like this. It's also a situation that was a point of emphasis by the rules makers prior to the 2008-2009 season.

First, the people in the stands (or coaches for that matter) that use the line "he has a right to the ball" get that from football announcers. (never listen to any announcer in any sport, especially when they are referring to a rule) This has no relevance to any basketball play........

Next, what is relevant here is the question >>> Was any contact that occurred made by a player in a disadvantageous position that now gives that player an advantage? That's admittedly a tough call at times as the official needs to judge the entire play, not just the severity of the contact. (contact that's severe is not necessarily a foul)

Pure judgment by the covering official in the play you describe. We apply the standard mentioned in this and a prior post above to officiate this play. It's certainly one that almost always draws the ire of the "offended" team.

It's also why we get paid huge sums of money to do what we do.
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  #360  
Old 01-25-17, 09:57 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
A similar question was asked not too long ago regarding plays like this. It's also a situation that was a point of emphasis by the rules makers prior to the 2008-2009 season.

First, the people in the stands (or coaches for that matter) that use the line "he has a right to the ball" get that from football announcers. (never listen to any announcer in any sport, especially when they are referring to a rule) This has no relevance to any basketball play........

Next, what is relevant here is the question >>> Was any contact that occurred made by a player in a disadvantageous position that now gives that player an advantage? That's admittedly a tough call at times as the official needs to judge the entire play, not just the severity of the contact. (contact that's severe is not necessarily a foul)

Pure judgment by the covering official in the play you describe. We apply the standard mentioned in this and a prior post above to officiate this play. It's certainly one that almost always draws the ire of the "offended" team.

It's also why we get paid huge sums of money to do what we do.
Thank you. The way you describe it makes it easier in my mind now to understand what is going on.

You mentioned another point in your response that I would like to discuss a little bit. Severe contact. When can there be a no call with severe contact? Is it something to do with the contact did not make an advantage or disadvantage to either player? I have seen a few plays this year with huge amounts of contact, mostly in fastbreak situations. But those scenarios the offense player really did not lose the ball, fall over (etc), and the contact really did not help the defense to much. Is this why no call?
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