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  #121  
Old 05-21-18, 07:02 PM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
I am, by background and training, a security type guy. I am the one at the movies checking where the exits are. I also get to a lot of schools, my own children's parochial schools and many public schools for professional reasons. I can tell you that I have been "buzzed" into all these schools and my credentials have never been checked, nor have I gone through a metal detector. That is shocking and continues to cause me distress. Yes, all of the schools in my area have security doors and a single access point, but, what good is that if they continue to just let everyone in without any scrutiny?

Getting into a school should have the same level of security as getting on a flight. Until that is done, all of the gun talk is BS. There is no gun issue at the airport. Ask yourself why that is. For those who think that will traumatize these kids, well, I guess you don't allow your kids to fly.
Agreed- having a security system in place and actually using it every single time isnt happening at a lot of schools! The difference between having effective security at an airport and school is $- need equipment and paid personnel to employ this. Then again if schools could stop spending $ battling lawsuits over not having gender neutral bathrooms that would help...
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  #122  
Old 05-21-18, 07:06 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
At least SWMC provided honest opinions unlike cabby bs. (still have no idea what that was about).........
Really ? OK.


In my honest opinion, ignorant kids can be expected to be stupid, but a person my age and older that has actually seen all the changes in American life over the past 50 years and doesn't attribute the increase in school shootings to the breakdown of the family and the "decay of society" can only be a completely clueless idiot - or something far worse.

That is what my post was about. I think you're that special brand of stupid that fellates his own ego and fancies himself as enlightened Not evil.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you asked for it.
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  #123  
Old 05-21-18, 07:28 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is online now
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Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
Agreed- having a security system in place and actually using it every single time isnt happening at a lot of schools! The difference between having effective security at an airport and school is $- need equipment and paid personnel to employ this. Then again if schools could stop spending $ battling lawsuits over not having gender neutral bathrooms that would help...
You speak the truth. For all of the whining and finger pointing and the Democrats' demonizing of the Republicans and the NRA and their shameless politicizing of the safety of our children, the fact of the matter is that it is not a priority for the people that count, the school boards and school administrators, most of whom, I dare say, are Democrats. Their slavish commitment to the unions leaves little resources left to safeguard our children.
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  #124  
Old 05-22-18, 08:32 AM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Really ? OK.
All that clarifies is your moral righteousness (please) and love of personal insults.

Yes I was born in the 60's and grew up in the 70's. I remember Vietnam, Nixon, early stages of civil rights for minorities and women, drugs, violence, (murder rate probably higher but didn't look), social unrest, protests, classic rock, also strong unions, less wealth and income inequality, lower CEO:worker pay ratios. Sorry I still don't know what your fetish from that period is but I can keep asking.

As far as (and I suspect) our "turning away from God" as the culprit, since you have mentioned before... 70-80% still identify as Christian. Church parking lots still full. Most everyone I know goes and so do my kids. And yet most evangelicals support a President who glaringly lacks ethics and morals let alone basic decency, family values, or any deep faith. The recent TX shooter had 2 parents, and they went to church.

Given that, not to mention all the sex scandals and financial corruption, maybe you should look internal, at your contribution to this "decay" not just external. What the hell are you guys teaching anyhow? I know church leaders are really grappling with this issue. I kinda like the Pope btw - is that good or bad?
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  #125  
Old 05-22-18, 10:38 AM
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MoeDude MoeDude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
...
As far as (and I suspect) our "turning away from God" as the culprit, since you have mentioned before... 70-80% still identify as Christian. Church parking lots still full. Most everyone I know goes and so do my kids. And yet most evangelicals support a President who glaringly lacks ethics and morals let alone basic decency, family values, or any deep faith. The recent TX shooter had 2 parents, and they went to church.
Sure there are a lot of people who still go to church and follow Christian doctrine but I think you are ignoring the move to take God out of the schools and public places. From communities being under fire for having Nativity scenes at Christmas to taking God out of the Pledge of Allegiance and in some cases not even saying the Pledge of Allegiance which is a sign of respect for the US Flag.

These shootings are a sign of a society in decline and the left is using guns as its shield to bigger issues. I don't think you can blame it all on one thing or another but it is a combination of the way our society has moved away from respect and self discipline. If we don't start dealing with societal changes and emotional problems that tend to pop-up with all of these shooters the killing will continue. This kid in Texas didn't use the AR-15 which is the lefts target right now but even if he didn't have guns there are stories that he was making homemade bombs.

Society is moving in the wrong direction and guns has nothing to do with it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw
Given that, not to mention all the sex scandals and financial corruption, maybe you should look internal, at your contribution to this "decay" not just external. What the hell are you guys teaching anyhow? I know church leaders are really grappling with this issue. I kinda like the Pope btw - is that good or bad?
I'm curious who are you referring to by "you guys"?!?!?

The teaching is the indoctrination that's been going on in public schools for decades now. Our schools need balance between Liberal and Conservative teachings but we see more and more the education system is being controlled by the Liberals. I think you are being naive if you don't think the Far Left influence on our public education system is not a major reason we're seeing a lot of the societal problems today.
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  #126  
Old 05-22-18, 11:04 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
...
As far as (and I suspect) our "turning away from God" as the culprit, since you have mentioned before... 70-80% still identify as Christian. Church parking lots still full. Most everyone I know goes and so do my kids.....
Yes, and no. Still a lot but like everything else, waning. Almost every religion (with the exception of Muslim) reports a decline in membership. While 71% of the population still identifies as Christian almost 23% of those have no religious affiliation - so are they really? That's like a roomful of people identifying as Harvard graduates but 23% of them never attended Harvard. Maybe a better analogy would be 100 people identifying as women despite the presence of a penis on 23% of them....

"Turning away" might not be the correct description, but as a nation we attempt to force Christians to abandon their beliefs and morals for the sake of inclusion or diversity, while at the same time excluding their beliefs and morals.....
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  #127  
Old 05-22-18, 12:29 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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"Christians" believe in 1000's of things, good and bad. And Christianity is and should be the definition of diversity not the converse. 1000's of non-Christians and atheists have their beliefs too, good and bad. I don't want this to become another religious debate. Just that whatever it is you worship and believe belongs in your church, private club or school, or to yourself.

MoeDude you are also nave (and partisan) to believe the Far Right influence is not equally destructive. That is why we are in this boat.

Never understood how Love Thy Neighbor or Golden Rule could be such difficult concepts. Do that and you'll be fine - no matter what you believe.
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  #128  
Old 05-22-18, 01:39 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Christianity is and should be the definition of diversity
Exactly. Everyone should have their own definition of morality and God, or not.
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  #129  
Old 05-22-18, 02:13 PM
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MoeDude MoeDude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
...

MoeDude you are also nave (and partisan) to believe the Far Right influence is not equally destructive. That is why we are in this boat.

..
Where have I ever stated the Far Right was the ultimate truth? Extremes in almost everything in life end up causing pain and suffering. When I attended some of the early Tea Party gatherings I liked what they were preaching fiscally but there was an underlying Far Right element I didn't like. In my post above I stated we need Liberal and Conservative ideas in school, when it goes too far in one direction is when you have problems. I was pointing out that you seem to want to ignore the damage the Liberals have done over the past several decades. Outside of Timothy McVeigh what exactly has the Far Right done that has suppressed citizens of the US?

As for the Golden Rule it is ironic that there is a version of this rule in every religion. Wouldn't it be nice if they all truly lived by it?!?!?

Golden Rule in World Religions
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  #130  
Old 05-22-18, 04:49 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is online now
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The problem is well illustrated by this thread. An issue is presented. Reasonable discussion is commenced but are hardly commented on by early posters on the thread. Side issues are thrown up that no one can do anything about (secularization of our society or breakdown of the family) and the other side attempts to use it to malign a president that they do not like and the two sides devolve into insults and name calling.

It has been said that Democrats do not want solutions, only campaign issues. I believe that that Tigerpaws postings on this thread prove that point in spades. He would rather wrestle with conservative posters on this thread than address reasonable proposals which would help solve the problem (which do not fit TPs template as it does not involve guns, nor the federal government usurping the rights and duties of the various states). What a waste of time.
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  #131  
Old 05-22-18, 05:33 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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Let’s ban sawed off shotguns.....oh wait they are already banned
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  #132  
Old 05-22-18, 06:54 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Bring back public hangings. No reason for this kid to see summer.
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  #133  
Old 05-23-18, 08:46 AM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
The problem is well illustrated by this thread. An issue is presented. Reasonable discussion is commenced but are hardly commented on by early posters on the thread. Side issues are thrown up that no one can do anything about (secularization of our society or breakdown of the family) and the other side attempts to use it to malign a president that they do not like and the two sides devolve into insults and name calling.

It has been said that Democrats do not want solutions, only campaign issues. I believe that that Tigerpaws postings on this thread prove that point in spades. He would rather wrestle with conservative posters on this thread than address reasonable proposals which would help solve the problem (which do not fit TPs template as it does not involve guns, nor the federal government usurping the rights and duties of the various states). What a waste of time.
I offered several honest and rational (imo) suggestions while avoiding any mention of assault bans, bump stocks, ammo, number of purchases etc etc - the usual most non-productive hot button issues.

Many (at least) are supported by a majority of the country. If you can't find a single bipartisan point of agreement in any of them, or a concession of one in exchange for another, then I agree it is a waste of time. Politically/Congress - that has certainly been the case.
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  #134  
Old 05-23-18, 10:13 AM
zeeman zeeman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
I offered several honest and rational (imo) suggestions while avoiding any mention of assault bans, bump stocks, ammo, number of purchases etc etc - the usual most non-productive hot button issues.

Many (at least) are supported by a majority of the country. If you can't find a single bipartisan point of agreement in any of them, or a concession of one in exchange for another, then I agree it is a waste of time. Politically/Congress - that has certainly been the case.
I actually agree with TP on something OMG the world may end. He did post several ways to combat this problem that I as an NRA member would listen to.
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  #135  
Old 05-23-18, 10:25 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
I offered several honest and rational (imo) suggestions while avoiding any mention of assault bans, bump stocks, ammo, number of purchases etc etc - the usual most non-productive hot button issues.

Many (at least) are supported by a majority of the country. If you can't find a single bipartisan point of agreement in any of them, or a concession of one in exchange for another, then I agree it is a waste of time. Politically/Congress - that has certainly been the case.
People support "free" healthcare until they face reductions in their working hours, increases in taxes, and restrictions on who they can see and when...

People often agree to "reasonable" steps until you start to get the definition of "reasonable" and we find out what is reasonable to some is a erosion of Constitutional Rights to others. As an example, additional background checks - until you find out that everyone that has committed one of these attacks either passed a background check OR they illegally circumvented the system by stealing the weapons or purchased them from criminal operators that wouldn't be part of a background check system anyway.

"Banning assault weapons", until you find out that civilians can't purchase assault weapons easily anyway, they aren't sold through normal retail channels and require licensing and an enhanced process. Banning "assault-style" weapons doesn't really address a problem because that just bans a certain look, the technology and operation of ANY modern rifle is the same.

Then there is that Constitutional Right thing that says quite clearly "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".....
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  #136  
Old 05-23-18, 11:55 AM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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I think that is the sidetrack purple is referring to. Valid point, but goes both ways. Ditto republican working class father suddenly confronted with a horrible illness in his family and unable to treat properly per the physician, and forced to watch suffer and slip into bankruptcy. Or pro-life woman required to bear a child, by rapists further incentivized to sickenly impregnate their victims. Or the sobbing daughter or effeminate son confronting their feelings and craving their parent's support. Sometimes that is what it takes to feel empathy towards someone else.


To this particular issue, as you allude the constitution does allows for "reasonable" controls. I can only put forth ideas that I believe are reasonable, and you are free to opine which are not. 2 you mentioned - background checks I think could be more thorough - social media posts, mental history, improved national databases and more robust data and input from state and local law enforcement, to make doubly sure none are getting into the wrong hands. I did NOT mention "assault weapons", though to me, do not seem particularly hard to purchase, even for the average 18 year old with a known history of questionable behavior.

Last edited by TigerPaw; 05-23-18 at 12:06 PM.
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  #137  
Old 05-23-18, 01:49 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
I think that is the sidetrack purple is referring to. Valid point, but goes both ways. Ditto republican working class father suddenly confronted with a horrible illness in his family and unable to treat properly per the physician, and forced to watch suffer and slip into bankruptcy. Or pro-life woman required to bear a child, by rapists further incentivized to sickenly impregnate their victims. Or the sobbing daughter or effeminate son confronting their feelings and craving their parent's support. Sometimes that is what it takes to feel empathy towards someone else.


To this particular issue, as you allude the constitution does allows for "reasonable" controls. I can only put forth ideas that I believe are reasonable, and you are free to opine which are not. 2 you mentioned - background checks I think could be more thorough - social media posts, mental history, improved national databases and more robust data and input from state and local law enforcement, to make doubly sure none are getting into the wrong hands. I did NOT mention "assault weapons", though to me, do not seem particularly hard to purchase, even for the average 18 year old with a known history of questionable behavior.
You set the parameters for the discussion, I was following your lead. People "support" a lot of things until it becomes clear that they have to pay for it or they lose something that they value over it. Like the Parkland kids, they want to be safe but not if it involves parents, teachers and cops knowing what is in their backpacks. Kids demand protections, but the cheap and fast answers are to lock them into schools and control their activities and eliminate their privacy while on campus - let's see how that would fly.

Try to purchase an assault weapon. A REAL assault weapon, #1 it's going to be 30+ years old because you can't legally buy one made after 1984. #2 you have to pay a fee for licensing to the ATF. #3 Your local law enforcement must agree that you are okay to have one or more accurately that they are okay with you to have one. #4 They are kind of expensive, an M16 starts at around $9K. It's not something someone with questionable behavior is going to obtain. If you still want one without being able to get through the process and paperwork, you are going to illegally purchase it from an illegal arms dealer.

You are willing to give up your right to privacy by linking ALL of your electronic presences listed in a central database...… with every data breach known you want to have a central clearinghouse for all of your information? The Europeans are now insisting that Facebook, etc. delete your data immediately once you ask them to or if you quit their service (starting on May 25th). How does that work then? With HIPAA and everything else, you want a single repository for mental illness, even if you've been "cured"? The medical profession would tell you that someone that is manic depressive isn't necessarily a danger to themselves or others, should we identify them as such anyway and make a permanent record of that? They protect people's information on infectious diseases, AIDS, congenital issues, etc. but you think some illnesses should be public whether treatable or being treated or not. Should we include people that have been prescribed narcotics? Medical marijuana? People that consume alcohol? Being an illegal immigrant, wouldn't that be a mental illness? Needing a support hamster or a campus crying room or someone that can't deal with the pressures of final exam week? Really anything that compromises your inhibitions should be grounds for eliminating your privacy, shouldn't it?
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  #138  
Old 05-23-18, 02:27 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is online now
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
Try to purchase an assault weapon. A REAL assault weapon, #1 it's going to be 30+ years old because you can't legally buy one made after 1984. #2 you have to pay a fee for licensing to the ATF. #3 Your local law enforcement must agree that you are okay to have one or more accurately that they are okay with you to have one. #4 They are kind of expensive, an M16 starts at around $9K. It's not something someone with questionable behavior is going to obtain. If you still want one without being able to get through the process and paperwork, you are going to illegally purchase it from an illegal arms dealer.
I think you might be confused. There is no current legal definition as to what an "assault weapon" is. Fully automatic weapons have been illegal, unless owning the necessary permit, since the 1930s. The "assault weapons ban" of 1994 expired in 2004 and was not renewed. As I said before, that "ban" was ineffective and was just a "fig leaf" for those politicos who wanted to say they had done something when they really hadn't. Banning a pistol grip or a bayonet mount does absolutely nothing other than changing the outward appearance of the firearm.

I have one rifle which is 80% 1960's M16. Everything is Vietnam War era USGI except for the lower receiver which is the only part the government refused to sell. The barrel, upper receiver and bolt are all USGI Colt and are mounted on a commercial lower receiver that does not have the full auto or three shot burst selector setting. It is perfectly legal and operates just like most modern hunting rifles.

Legally speaking, there is no definition of an "assault rifle" but I believe that most Americans would consider my M16/AR15 rifle one.

I hope this clears things up.
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  #139  
Old 05-23-18, 05:32 PM
gneiss rocks gneiss rocks is offline
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Whatever side you are on, you have to admit this is funny...well unless you are just a ....

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/22...ng-ar-15s.html
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  #140  
Old 05-23-18, 06:34 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
... school boards and school administrators, most of whom, I dare say, are Democrats. Their slavish commitment to the unions leaves little resources left to safeguard our children.
That's what we need, more speculation without any idea of what is true or false.

First, you have no idea if they are Democrats, Republicans, or neither.

Second, school boards and administrators are never slavishly committed to the teachers' union.
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  #141  
Old 05-23-18, 06:45 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
I think you might be confused. There is no current legal definition as to what an "assault weapon" is.........
Merriam-Webster defines an assault rifle as: any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic fire.

So there's that. The "assault weapons ban of 1994" was more about "assault-style" weapons vs real assault weapons. Basically it was banning weapons that had a flash suppressor, a bayonet mount, a pistol-style grip, and a folding stock and a grenade launcher..... if it looked like a military rifle, then it wasn't to be sold in the US. In 2004 when the ban ended, there was no evidence that the ban accomplished anything.

I hear what you are saying, but I'm not really confused.
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  #142  
Old 05-23-18, 06:50 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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...

Second, school boards and administrators are never slavishly committed to the teachers' union.
In some cases you are correct, but in the vast majority the elected politicians seem to forget that they work for Taxpayers and the teachers work for them. When have striking teachers been fired, or actually lost income when staging a protest during school hours?
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  #143  
Old 05-23-18, 07:06 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is online now
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
Merriam-Webster defines an assault rifle as: any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic fire.

So there's that. The "assault weapons ban of 1994" was more about "assault-style" weapons vs real assault weapons. Basically it was banning weapons that had a flash suppressor, a bayonet mount, a pistol-style grip, and a folding stock and a grenade launcher..... if it looked like a military rifle, then it wasn't to be sold in the US. In 2004 when the ban ended, there was no evidence that the ban accomplished anything.

I hear what you are saying, but I'm not really confused.
The law does not usually reference Merriam-Webster but given their definition, "assault weapons" were banned in 1935 when machine guns were banned. So there is no legal definition of "assault weapons" and I do not believe the common opinion is that "assault weapons" are limited to those that "can be set for automatic or semiautomatic fire".

We do agree on the fraud that the prior ban was.
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  #144  
Old 05-23-18, 07:12 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is online now
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
That's what we need, more speculation without any idea of what is true or false.

First, you have no idea if they are Democrats, Republicans, or neither.

Second, school boards and administrators are never slavishly committed to the teachers' union.
Well, teachers belong to their union and their union speaks for them, overwhelmingly supporting Democratic candidates. Look at the explosion in admin positions for schools that once had a principal and maybe one assistant and a secretary. The waste is incredible. As teachers are mostly democrat supporting union members and most admins and board members were once teachers...you figure it out.

Anyway, I do not see many school boards or administrators taking security seriously. They pay lip service to security with the actual budgetary payments going towards other things.
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  #145  
Old 05-23-18, 07:35 PM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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The media coverage of Columbine is the culprit of some of these school shootings. Jonesboro was definitely a result of Columbine. The media glorifies these events and throws the word "massacre" and paste the pics of the killers. Challenging those to break the "kills" of the previous attempt. The media "wants" this to happen so our faces get glued to the TV screen. The decline of society as a result of soccer mom mentality has destroyed this country. Everyone is a winner crap meets reality explodes into violence.

I was picked on as a kid and I continued the cycle by picking on who ever I could but the thought of bringing a gun to school and doing something never crossed my mind. As for guns, yes we had them in fact we would hang out in the woods armed. We never shot at each other no matter how pissed off we got. We dealt with issues with our fists and when it was over it was over. Guns is not the problem, the problem is with this new way of believing where kids are raised by video games, cable tv, and internet. It tells them what they should like, how they should look, and how they should think. They do not get exercise and are loaded up with prescriptions as everything comes down to the evil mighty dollar.

Legalize pot. Nobody goes on a mass shooting spree while high.

I am not a Republican nor am I a Democrat but what I have witness this year Democrats discussed me by how they have been acting. Making this a "gun" issue like we are suppose to be naive in thinking no guns no crimes, well, that is a bunch of BS. Crime would go up if you take the guns away from the responsible. You want to slow this stuff down. Have the media show where the kids who committed murder are doing now? Release everyone from prison who is in there for drug use. Have more severe penalties for anyone who uses a gun in a crime regardless of age. ACCOUNTABILITY.... I'm tired of hearing "He is a good kid but he just made a mistake" .... a mistake is not breaking into a business with a loaded gun threatening everyone.....
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  #146  
Old 05-23-18, 07:41 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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I actually agree with David Hogg that the MSM needs to stop televising school shootings. That’s the number 1 cause in the increase in school shootings. Everyone agrees on it
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  #147  
Old 05-23-18, 08:01 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
As teachers are mostly democrat supporting union members and most admins and board members were once teachers...you figure it out.
I've worked in public education for 41 years. I have figured it out.

Maybe a majority of teachers are Democrat, but not all, and it is not because they belong to a union.

Administration is the same, except that they are not union members.

Board members are almost never ex-teachers.
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  #148  
Old 05-23-18, 08:02 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
They pay lip service to security with the actual budgetary payments going towards other things.
Mostly teachers.

Local schools don't have the money to turn their school into hard targets.
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  #149  
Old 05-23-18, 08:35 PM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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We are gun culture....school shootings are just something we have to accept. Just have to hope your kid is not shot.
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  #150  
Old 05-23-18, 09:11 PM
y2h y2h is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
We are gun culture....school shootings are just something we have to accept. Just have to hope your kid is not shot.
Seeing that school shootings are extremely rare there is an extremely high chance your kid will never be shot at school.
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