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  #121  
Old 08-24-16, 11:17 AM
Soccer Toe Soccer Toe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
Leagues are overrated and driving any player who has a family income of less than $75,000 completely out of the sport. It is simply not realistic to pay 2-5K per year to play a sport for most of the pool even if it is only age 14-18.
The price tag of club soccer is what by far is driving the lack of development in this country ... not what league, not 'not playing in the ECNL', not what coach. The problem is the large amount of great athletes that don't play club soccer.
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  #122  
Old 08-24-16, 11:44 AM
Hoosier Parent Hoosier Parent is offline
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Growth equals higher expectations which requires more investment. There's an industry built around youth sports development now. U12 players with personal trainers and technical coaches, etc. I don't think it's anything corrupt, just an extension of an industry that grew from the professional ranks, to colleges, to Club and HS.

There are plenty of less ambitious clubs to fit anyone's budget, and plenty programs online to develop athletic ability for those who are motivated enough. I don't think you can fault large clubs for developing a program around professionals and lots of resources.

I find it somewhat humorous to listen to the CUP/KHA vs OE arguments concerning player development when I see their rosters littered with players who gravitated there from smaller clubs.
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  #123  
Old 08-24-16, 01:49 PM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Originally Posted by Hoosier Parent View Post
Growth equals higher expectations which requires more investment. There's an industry built around youth sports development now. U12 players with personal trainers and technical coaches, etc. I don't think it's anything corrupt, just an extension of an industry that grew from the professional ranks, to colleges, to Club and HS.

There are plenty of less ambitious clubs to fit anyone's budget, and plenty programs online to develop athletic ability for those who are motivated enough. I don't think you can fault large clubs for developing a program around professionals and lots of resources.

I find it somewhat humorous to listen to the CUP/KHA vs OE arguments concerning player development when I see their rosters littered with players who gravitated there from smaller clubs.
I get the evolution, but the overall pool of players getting access to these resources in the US is a lot different than other countries. Well off suburban kids with lots of life options and safety nets....the system as a whole does not produce the level of players of say a Belgium or Argentina or even a Hondurus or Iceland.
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  #124  
Old 08-24-16, 02:06 PM
coachg coachg is offline
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Originally Posted by Soccer Toe View Post
The price tag of club soccer is what by far is driving the lack of development in this country ... not what league, not 'not playing in the ECNL', not what coach. The problem is the large amount of great athletes that don't play club soccer.
I would add in the cost of licensing for coaches and that with each license level most / many believe they should make more money?

What other sport has coaching licenses in the USA? I know A level coaches that are idiots and F that are brilliant? What basketball coaching license does coach K have? Isn't this just a money maker and reason for clubs to charge more too?

Let me be clear it is a free market and clubs will charge whatever they can make. After all we do live in a free country and this is a Free Market where parents / players do have a lot of choices. Do I always agree with it no but I cant think of a better way to do it.
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  #125  
Old 08-24-16, 03:03 PM
Empty CUP Empty CUP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
I get the evolution, but the overall pool of players getting access to these resources in the US is a lot different than other countries. Well off suburban kids with lots of life options and safety nets....the system as a whole does not produce the level of players of say a Belgium or Argentina or even a Hondurus or Iceland.

The issue with development is on the boys side (and I assume that's what your talking about in your post because the women from those nations are certainly not better than ours) and the reality of that is that in the US we have different options that the majority of very gifted athletic boys choose. Baseball, Basketball, wrestling and Football. US Mens soccer is left with a very different looking pool than the rest of the world due to that. Heck even Lacrosse and swimming take some awesome athletes that would be available in other nations.
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  #126  
Old 08-24-16, 03:47 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by Soccer Toe View Post
The price tag of club soccer is what by far is driving the lack of development in this country ... not what league, not 'not playing in the ECNL', not what coach. The problem is the large amount of great athletes that don't play club soccer.
Baseball isn't far behind with making the very same mistake. As "select/travel" becomes more and more popular, both sports move further and further towards becoming exclusive instead of inclusive sports. Where only the kids from the most well to do backgrounds can play, or more importantly, have the opportunity to develop their potential skills. The more you make it cost the more great athletes you squeeze out of the sport.
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  #127  
Old 08-24-16, 03:59 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
I get the evolution, but the overall pool of players getting access to these resources in the US is a lot different than other countries. Well off suburban kids with lots of life options and safety nets....the system as a whole does not produce the level of players of say a Belgium or Argentina or even a Hondurus or Iceland.
That's not necessarily a fair argument because many of the countries around the world don't have as many sports options overall to choose from. In America soccer is battling sports like football, baseball and basketball for kids, and more importantly athletes. And that's just the sports that are arguably more popular. There's still a multitude of other sports for kids to choose from as well. And with single sport specialization becoming popular with younger and younger kids, that pool of athletes to choose from gets smaller and smaller. In a country like Columbia, soccer gets its large share of the athletes simply due to less competition over them.
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  #128  
Old 08-24-16, 05:02 PM
LeroyGomez LeroyGomez is offline
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Blah blah blah. Blaming the system, the options, whatever. The truly elite soccer players that want to play at the highest level will find a way to make it happen...at whatever club. The ones that blame the system probably weren't going to put the work in anyway.
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  #129  
Old 08-24-16, 05:24 PM
buckshooter5 buckshooter5 is offline
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Originally Posted by coachg View Post
I would add in the cost of licensing for coaches and that with each license level most / many believe they should make more money?

What other sport has coaching licenses in the USA? I know A level coaches that are idiots and F that are brilliant? What basketball coaching license does coach K have? Isn't this just a money maker and reason for clubs to charge more too?

Let me be clear it is a free market and clubs will charge whatever they can make. After all we do live in a free country and this is a Free Market where parents / players do have a lot of choices. Do I always agree with it no but I cant think of a better way to do it.
And why some lie on their resume' LMAO!! You set that one up on a T Coach G!
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  #130  
Old 08-24-16, 06:18 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by LeroyGomez View Post
Blah blah blah. Blaming the system, the options, whatever. The truly elite soccer players that want to play at the highest level will find a way to make it happen...at whatever club. The ones that blame the system probably weren't going to put the work in anyway.
I don't think anybody is blaming anyone or anything. Just pointing out the flaws in the system and the problems those flaws cause. Also, nobody is saying their kid didn't go pro because such and such club cost too much. The players we are talking about effectively don't exist in the soccer world. We're referring to the athletes that can't or won't contribute to the soccer community (past, present, and future) due to the reasons already mentioned in earlier comments, but instead are contributing to the communities of other sports. More specifically we are talking about the elite of the elite athletes. The ones with the potential to elevate the level of soccer on the national and world stages.

This isn't a conversation about personal responsibility, but if it makes you feel better to make it about that, have at is hoss.

Last edited by Philly_Cat; 08-24-16 at 06:28 PM..
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  #131  
Old 08-24-16, 08:57 PM
Reynaldo2000 Reynaldo2000 is offline
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The flaw to me in many of these arguments about the best athletes playing other sports is how a small country such as Iceland or Hondurus or Jamaica can produce a national team that is equal to or better than the U.S. The shear number of players we have in this country should allow us to produce a much better national team. Some of these small countries' population is equal to that of the Greater Cinci/Dayton/Columbus area and they are producing better players and teams than we do. (I am mostly talking about men's soccer here)

To me, it seems like we have failed to produce a national style of play because we are constantly trying to be like England, Brazil or Germany. I can watch almost any international game and tell what country is playing by looking at the style, except for the U.S. Yes, we play hard, we run a lot, and we are organized well defensively, but our flair is weak, touch is poor, and creativity poor (I am overgeneralizing of course).

From a coaches perspective (coached club and H.S. for many years), it seems as if the licensing is a joke (having taken many courses from USSF), and the deference to anyone with an accent is really annoying.

From a parent's perspective, in particular a parent of girls who are small, fast and skilled, we reward the physically developed, large players at a young age and neglect those players who will eventually become good players in favor of the big and strong early developers, because quite simply, those kids win games. I always joked that if Messi grew up in the U.S. he would have been relegated to the rec leagues because of his size. Now, I will admit my bias due to my own daughters' size, so this could be "dad" talking.....
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  #132  
Old 08-24-16, 09:44 PM
LeroyGomez LeroyGomez is offline
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So let's say soccer became totally free. Do you really think these elite athletes that don't exist in the soccer world now...would all of a sudden be flocking to the game? I find that hard to believe. I think you wind up with the same elite athletes playing that are already playing. Their passion finds the game. They don't find the game because someone says "Hey, play soccer...it's FREE".
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  #133  
Old 08-25-16, 12:34 AM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeroyGomez View Post
They don't find the game because someone says "Hey, play soccer...it's FREE".
Ummm yes, you do. I may very well could have been a equestrian rider, maybe even would have loved it more than any other sport, could have maybe even beent an Olympian with the sport. But guess what, I will never know that because there was no way I was going to be introduced to that sport with my background. Horse riding is an exclusive sport, with money being one of the major barriers to it. Could LeBron James have been an all-world fencer? Who knows, though I'd probably put money on him being pretty damn good at it just due to his pure athleticism. But fencing is another exclusive sport. Chances are if you don't know someone involved with fencing you will never even know what it is let alone actually ever try it.

My point is that when a sport is exclusive the pool of potential athletes, including elite athletes, gets smaller. Cost is one of the biggest and easiest ways to make a sport exclusive. As large as soccer is in the country, will the increasing costs make it like tennis or golf? Of course not. It is still too easy to grab a soccer ball anywhere and kick it around. But to say high costs don't still have an impact on the potential athletes that could play it is naive to say the least.
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  #134  
Old 08-25-16, 12:37 AM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by LeroyGomez View Post
So let's say soccer became totally free. Do you really think these elite athletes that don't exist in the soccer world now...would all of a sudden be flocking to the game? I find that hard to believe. I think you wind up with the same elite athletes playing that are already playing. Their passion finds the game. They don't find the game because someone says "Hey, play soccer...it's FREE".
You can have all the passion you want, if you ain't got the duckets you're not going to get top level training (in soccer at least). And that could very well hinder your progress and eventually, if you're athletic enough, steer you off to another sport with less barriers.
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  #135  
Old 08-25-16, 12:44 AM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by Reynaldo2000 View Post
From a parent's perspective, in particular a parent of girls who are small, fast and skilled, we reward the physically developed, large players at a young age and neglect those players who will eventually become good players in favor of the big and strong early developers, because quite simply, those kids win games. I always joked that if Messi grew up in the U.S. he would have been relegated to the rec leagues because of his size. Now, I will admit my bias due to my own daughters' size, so this could be "dad" talking.....
I agree and don't necessarily think it's the dad in you talking. What you've pointed out is a problem that also is found in other sports as well. Only thing I can say to this is there are many coaches and organizations that recognize that and are working to not let that happen. But it ultimately falls on us as parents to do our homework and seek out the ones that are doing it right. It's a tough task, but if you think it's worth it there should be no reason for you not to try and put in that extra work to find the right people.
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  #136  
Old 08-25-16, 09:43 AM
outsideobserver11 outsideobserver11 is offline
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Originally Posted by coachg View Post
I would add in the cost of licensing for coaches and that with each license level most / many believe they should make more money?

What other sport has coaching licenses in the USA? I know A level coaches that are idiots and F that are brilliant? What basketball coaching license does coach K have? Isn't this just a money maker and reason for clubs to charge more too?

Let me be clear it is a free market and clubs will charge whatever they can make. After all we do live in a free country and this is a Free Market where parents / players do have a lot of choices. Do I always agree with it no but I cant think of a better way to do it.
That whole paragraph is spot on. It's also dumb in my opinion that certain leagues have certain license requirements to coach. If a club wants to put someone out there to coach a team then that should be their decision.
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  #137  
Old 08-25-16, 10:39 AM
buckshooter5 buckshooter5 is offline
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This is exactly why I would lie on my resume'. Bet there are coaches out there who have :-)
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  #138  
Old 08-25-16, 11:01 AM
Upper 90 Upper 90 is offline
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The last license class I took the instructor spent quite a bit of time talking about our cadence and delivery style. I thought I was going to puke in my mouth. Ends up sounding like a weird cross between JFK and WC Fields.
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  #139  
Old 08-25-16, 01:30 PM
outsideobserver11 outsideobserver11 is offline
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Originally Posted by buckshooter5 View Post
This is exactly why I would lie on my resume'. Bet there are coaches out there who have :-)
That's a different can of worms there! Not very smart to do either because it can be easily checked.
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  #140  
Old 08-25-16, 09:44 PM
buckshooter5 buckshooter5 is offline
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Originally Posted by outsideobserver11 View Post
That's a different can of worms there! Not very smart to do either because it can be easily checked.
Hmmmmm , Maybe an area club needs to check into a couple of their coaches.
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  #141  
Old 08-26-16, 10:54 AM
coachg coachg is offline
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Originally Posted by buckshooter5 View Post
Hmmmmm , Maybe an area club needs to check into a couple of their coaches.
BuckToothedOne - Just drop it. You just never seem to learn. Have you ever thought that at one time they would waive the rules for license level depending upon the level you played at? I can't speak to the exact instance you are talking about but I know that this caused confusion with many people because they may get waived from having to take the courses for the F, E , or D and allowed to start with the C course or they would hold another License from a different group and was told it was equal to a certain USSF license level. Many people confused these things as "having" that USSF level when in reality it just allowed them to start the USSF system at a higher level. So I am not sure if that happened in the case you keep mentioning or not but I know there has been a lot of confusion around it.
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  #142  
Old 08-26-16, 12:00 PM
HaaaveYouMetTed HaaaveYouMetTed is offline
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Originally Posted by coachg View Post
BuckToothedOne - Just drop it. You just never seem to learn. Have you ever thought that at one time they would waive the rules for license level depending upon the level you played at? I can't speak to the exact instance you are talking about but I know that this caused confusion with many people because they may get waived from having to take the courses for the F, E , or D and allowed to start with the C course or they would hold another License from a different group and was told it was equal to a certain USSF license level. Many people confused these things as "having" that USSF level when in reality it just allowed them to start the USSF system at a higher level. So I am not sure if that happened in the case you keep mentioning or not but I know there has been a lot of confusion around it.
Somebody struck a nerve...
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  #143  
Old 08-26-16, 04:15 PM
coachg coachg is offline
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Originally Posted by HaaaveYouMetTed View Post
Somebody struck a nerve...
Well BuckToothedOne - does need a root canal but no nerve hit here. I was just pointing out the lack of clarity that I have seen and heard from Ohio South and young coaches. I know my License Level and have submitted it whenever asked. As I have said before I believe the License Levels are a mostly just a money maker for many people. I have never heard of basketball having Licences and testing coaches that run a "training" session in order to be upgraded to a higher level. I don't think Coach K has a license for basketball but he is arguably the best coach in the world at that sport. I know A level holders and SUCK and F ones that are great. To me its mostly a money maker.
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  #144  
Old 08-26-16, 04:43 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by coachg View Post
Well BuckToothedOne - does need a root canal but no nerve hit here. I was just pointing out the lack of clarity that I have seen and heard from Ohio South and young coaches. I know my License Level and have submitted it whenever asked. As I have said before I believe the License Levels are a mostly just a money maker for many people. I have never heard of basketball having Licences and testing coaches that run a "training" session in order to be upgraded to a higher level. I don't think Coach K has a license for basketball but he is arguably the best coach in the world at that sport. I know A level holders and SUCK and F ones that are great. To me its mostly a money maker.
In defense of soccer, licensing does provide a rough estimate of competence. You can argue how great the licensing are but they are better than nothing. Yes basketball doesn't have any kind of requirement for its coaches, but at the same time that means there are even more coaches out there that have no clue how to coach kids or basketball. You get a lot more coaches that are good "talkers". Meaning they are good at socializing and recruiting talent together. But after getting your kid around other great talents thone coaches can't offer much more. Say want you want about coaching licenses, but at least it provides more structure to the landscape (you can argue over how great the licenses are). No licenses open up the sport to more of a wile wild west, like basketball mostly is.
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  #145  
Old 08-28-16, 06:51 AM
Wrightstate90210 Wrightstate90210 is offline
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I've spoken to players parents about ECNL and they are not being told to not play HS soccer. ECNL has a fall league as an option only. There are some players with commits to D1 that choose not to play to preserve their bodies, but as club ECNL appears to encourage balance in enjoyment of other things in sports besides club soccer. My daughter plays U11 and I have been researching all the clubs to see where she should play. She can play at a high level in both soccer and basketball and wants the full experience of high school sports so DA Academy appears not to be inline of her values. D1 soccer is her goal for now.

Last edited by Wrightstate90210; 08-28-16 at 07:19 AM..
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  #146  
Old 08-29-16, 12:15 AM
Alex01 Alex01 is offline
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Originally Posted by Wrightstate90210 View Post
I've spoken to players parents about ECNL and they are not being told to not play HS soccer. ECNL has a fall league as an option only. There are some players with commits to D1 that choose not to play to preserve their bodies, but as club ECNL appears to encourage balance in enjoyment of other things in sports besides club soccer. My daughter plays U11 and I have been researching all the clubs to see where she should play. She can play at a high level in both soccer and basketball and wants the full experience of high school sports so DA Academy appears not to be inline of her values. D1 soccer is her goal for now.
My Baby plays for an ECNL club and her coaches encourages her to play HS soccer. She missed a lot of the last season due to an injury so she decided to train this HS Season. She also plays 2 sports at a high level but did a verbal for soccer as a 9th grader to a D1 college. Good Luck to your Baby!!!
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  #147  
Old 08-29-16, 04:38 AM
Wrightstate90210 Wrightstate90210 is offline
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I've done research and the fact is many girls that have landed D1 offers stop playing high school to preserve their bodies for college ball. Concussions and knee blowouts are more common in high school due to the unskilled amount of players vs ECNL.
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  #148  
Old 08-29-16, 09:06 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Originally Posted by Wrightstate90210 View Post
I've done research and the fact is many girls that have landed D1 offers stop playing high school to preserve their bodies for college ball. Concussions and knee blowouts are more common in high school due to the unskilled amount of players vs ECNL.
You have faulty arguments.

The fact is that many girls that have landed D1 offers will continue playing high school soccer. This will not change in the future as the number of non-GDA players will always be more, a lot more, than the number of GDA players.

If you've done your research you also know that around 70% to 75% of ACL injuries are non-contact in nature. Playing ECNL, GDA, USYSA NL, or in any other alphabet soup league isn't going to be some magical panacea for knee injuries or, for that matter, concussions. I've never heard of ECNL or GDA knee braces.

In short, skipping three months of club soccer in order to play club soccer is not going to make a big difference for 99.99% of the players out there. Keep in mind, though, that with age groups that encompass two birth years, and the composition of teams, as mandated by US Soccer, being relatively equal between the birth years, there will be approximately 10 players of each birth year on a team. That means in an area like Cincinnati, that will only have one GDA club, there will be about 10 players per birth year, in total, that will be playing in the GDA. I'm not considering the kids that will probably be coming from Columbus or other areas to play in the the GDA in Cincinnati. The effect on high school soccer will be negligible. Once the GDA in Cincinnati gets rolling I would expect a team composition of about 6 players per birth year that are from the Cincinnati area with the other 4 coming from areas such as Columbus, Lexington, etc.
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  #149  
Old 08-29-16, 11:57 AM
Conan73 Conan73 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rohbino View Post
You have faulty arguments.

The fact is that many girls that have landed D1 offers will continue playing high school soccer. This will not change in the future as the number of non-GDA players will always be more, a lot more, than the number of GDA players.

If you've done your research you also know that around 70% to 75% of ACL injuries are non-contact in nature. Playing ECNL, GDA, USYSA NL, or in any other alphabet soup league isn't going to be some magical panacea for knee injuries or, for that matter, concussions. I've never heard of ECNL or GDA knee braces.

In short, skipping three months of club soccer in order to play club soccer is not going to make a big difference for 99.99% of the players out there. Keep in mind, though, that with age groups that encompass two birth years, and the composition of teams, as mandated by US Soccer, being relatively equal between the birth years, there will be approximately 10 players of each birth year on a team. That means in an area like Cincinnati, that will only have one GDA club, there will be about 10 players per birth year, in total, that will be playing in the GDA. I'm not considering the kids that will probably be coming from Columbus or other areas to play in the the GDA in Cincinnati. The effect on high school soccer will be negligible. Once the GDA in Cincinnati gets rolling I would expect a team composition of about 6 players per birth year that are from the Cincinnati area with the other 4 coming from areas such as Columbus, Lexington, etc.
I agree with this....the impact to high school soccer will be minimal at best. It might hit one or two schools a little harder if multiple GDA players are from the same school...

As for injuries, the only thing that I could see making the GDA an improvement is if they provide meaningful strength and agility and injury prevention training. This could reduce the rate of ACL tears. This is typically something that most kids don't get unless they shell out the money for something like Balconi....even in those instances, they typically can't devote adequate time to this type of training because club goes straight into high school which goes straight into club and so on.....there's no time for the players to focus on individual aspects of their game and fitness and injury prevention. So, the question is, will a GDA coach recognize the need for this type of training and build it into the training curriculum?
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  #150  
Old 08-31-16, 07:35 AM
sportsfanofyear sportsfanofyear is offline
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Originally Posted by Rohbino View Post
You have faulty arguments.

The fact is that many girls that have landed D1 offers will continue playing high school soccer. This will not change in the future as the number of non-GDA players will always be more, a lot more, than the number of GDA players.

If you've done your research you also know that around 70% to 75% of ACL injuries are non-contact in nature. Playing ECNL, GDA, USYSA NL, or in any other alphabet soup league isn't going to be some magical panacea for knee injuries or, for that matter, concussions. I've never heard of ECNL or GDA knee braces.

In short, skipping three months of club soccer in order to play club soccer is not going to make a big difference for 99.99% of the players out there. Keep in mind, though, that with age groups that encompass two birth years, and the composition of teams, as mandated by US Soccer, being relatively equal between the birth years, there will be approximately 10 players of each birth year on a team. That means in an area like Cincinnati, that will only have one GDA club, there will be about 10 players per birth year, in total, that will be playing in the GDA. I'm not considering the kids that will probably be coming from Columbus or other areas to play in the the GDA in Cincinnati. The effect on high school soccer will be negligible. Once the GDA in Cincinnati gets rolling I would expect a team composition of about 6 players per birth year that are from the Cincinnati area with the other 4 coming from areas such as Columbus, Lexington, etc.
ROH is so accurate in his comments above and WRIGHT, you are so wrong in your reasoning of Club over High School.

I would add that those girls that choose Club over High School, often have some sort of beef with their High School coach and/or teammates.
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