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  #1711  
Old 01-11-17, 03:54 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Meschery's career was similar to that of "Jungle Jim" Loscutoff with the Celtics -- excellent defender, great "glue" guy -- but Meschery was more talented offensively and a better rebounder. Both, though, were integral pieces of their teams overall success.

Yes, they performed their "hatchet" role very well. It makes one wonder if they would have survived in today's NBA. Their teammates, no doubt, would have loved them. Social media, unfortunately, might be a different story. That's a shame.
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  #1712  
Old 01-11-17, 05:58 PM
Johnstown Benny Johnstown Benny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlwolverine View Post
1964 Michigan starting lineup - G Cazzie Russell G Bob Cantrell (capt) C Bill Buntin F Oliver Darden F - Larry "Trigger" Tregoning - reserves included George Pomey, John Clawson (gold medalist 1968 Olympics), Jim Myers (from Defiance) and John Thompson (no relation to Gtown John Thompson).

Tom Meschery is/was a poet.

rdlwolverine,

Correct, Tom Meschery is a well known poet and spent his life after hoops primarily as an educator. This " Mad Hungarian" was actually born in China and spent his early years in a Japanese concentration camp at the start of WWII. His father was a Russian military officer and his mother worked at the American Consulate in China. The Meschery family was reunited after the end of the war in San Francisco by the Christian Brothers priests.

JB
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  #1713  
Old 01-11-17, 06:03 PM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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rdl - Great answer on the Wolverines' starters. Boy, that team was scary!

Did not know Tom M. was a poet; great stuff!! But, why not; Joe Don Loonie became a shaman.

Ok, here was always the other half of "name that team"; name the five starters for Loyola that won it all in '63. (I believe OWK can name the entire roster. :O) ! )

My and probably most of you consider my (your) "wheel house" years in college hoops to be '64 -'70; depends on your life. Now, OWK sat on the bench with Huggins so either Huggins learned a lot or OWK did.

We've got most of the college hoops guys on board now and it's great fun! Always nice when J.B. and the rest of the crew are shooting around in the driveway and it's 1961. That's what this reminds me of... . I had more fun as an adolescent shooting hoops at guys' houses or in gyms then I ever did doing anything else. (Throw some baseball in there also.)

That last group of questions was the end of The Early NBA Quiz. If I could find it I would get the Terry Pluto book: "Loose Balls" out which covers the start up of the ABA. Lots of information in there about many of our hoops' heroes.

I'll try to supply all of the answers I have later tonight. I believe almost all of the questions were answered. The money questions are more for the shock value as to how much things have changed over the years.

Rock on!

(Answers posted.)

( Loyola starters question is still hanging.)

Last edited by Bevo; 01-12-17 at 02:51 PM.
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  #1714  
Old 01-12-17, 11:19 AM
One Who Knows One Who Knows is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlwolverine View Post
1964 Michigan starting lineup - G Cazzie Russell G Bob Cantrell (capt) C Bill Buntin F Oliver Darden F - Larry "Trigger" Tregoning - reserves included George Pomey, John Clawson (gold medalist 1968 Olympics), Jim Myers (from Defiance) and John Thompson (no relation to Gtown John Thompson).

Tom Meschery is/was a poet.
rdlwolverine - That certainly was an outstanding Michigan team. They made a great run at the national title until they were beaten by Duke. That Duke squad was led by Jeff Mullins (from Lexington, KY). I still don't know how Duke was able to recruit Mullins from "under the nose" of Adolf Rupp. Years later, there was another Lexington product who had a great career at Duke. He played at Duke in the late 70s-early 80s, but that was after the "Baron of the Bluegrass" had retired. Can anyone name that player?

ROCK ON!
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  #1715  
Old 01-12-17, 11:35 AM
One Who Knows One Who Knows is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevo View Post
rdl - Great answer on the Wolverines' starters. Boy, that team was scary!

Did not know Tom M. was a poet; great stuff!! But, why not; Joe Don Loonie became a shaman.

Ok, here was always the other half of "name that team"; name the five starters for Loyola that won it all in '66. (I believe OWK can name the entire roster. :O) ! )

My and probably most of you consider my (your) "wheel house" years in college hoops to be '64 -'70; depends on your life. Now, OWK sat on the bench with Huggins so either Huggins learned a lot or OWK did.

We've got most of the college hoops guys on board now and it's great fun! Always nice when J.B. and the rest of the crew are shooting around in the driveway and it's 1961. That's what this reminds me of... . I had more fun as an adolescent shooting hoops at guys' houses or in gyms then I ever did doing anything else. (Throw some baseball in there also.)

That last group of questions was the end of The Early NBA Quiz. If I could find it I would get the Terry Pluto book: "Loose Balls" out which covers the start up of the ABA. Lots of information in there about many of our hoops' heroes.

I'll try to supply all of the answers I have later tonight. I believe almost all of the questions were answered. The money questions are more for the shock value as to how much things have changed over the years.

Rock on!

(Answers posted.)

( Loyola starters question is still hanging.)
As I mentioned on this thread a few years ago, Loyola of Chicago practiced at my high school during their championship season of 1962-63. They were in NE Ohio to play Kent State and were staying at a hotel in downtown Akron. George Ireland, their coach, called the closest Catholic high school to where the Ramblers were staying. Ireland wanted access to a court on which his Ramblers could practice the night before their game with Kent.

You can imagine how thrilled I was to see the Loyola team. I was a sophomore in high school and it was a secret that the Ramblers would be practicing after us. As our practice was ending, we saw these guys come into the gym with their Loyola of Chicago gear. What a great time we had at Akron St. Vincent watching the Ramblers practice (they permitted us to stay and watch). The Ramblers were averaging over 100 ppg game and they were really fun to watch. Bevo is correct! Due to Loyola practicing at St. Vincent, I can remember the starters from that 1963 NCAA title team:
G. John Egan
G. Ron Miller
F. Jerry Harkness (lefty, All-American)
F. Vic Rouse (the guy who scored the winning basket vs. UC in the title game)
C. Les Hunter

I didn't realize until years later that both Les Hunter and Vic Rouse attended the same high school - Pearl HS in Nashville.

ROCK ON!
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  #1716  
Old 01-12-17, 01:44 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Vic Rouse -- a name that will live forever in UC infamy .

I still get upset thinking about it.
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  #1717  
Old 01-12-17, 02:50 PM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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You should. I do recall either watching the game or seeing a clip of the ending. Wasn't the shot short and grabbed and put in at the buzzer (maybe I should ask Monclova.) I think I had my year wrong for this; this was the '63 championship?

OWK - I do not remember you talking about the day the Ramblers were at St. V. That is incredible.

Don't you just love the informality of all of it. Today there would be a closed practice on site - with police.

Last edited by Bevo; 01-12-17 at 03:38 PM.
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  #1718  
Old 01-12-17, 04:21 PM
Johnstown Benny Johnstown Benny is offline
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Really interesting stuff from OWK and his getting a private viewing of the Loyola of Chicago practice session at Akron St V back in the day. How cool was that !

One of the most amazing things about that '63 championship game was the fact that all 5 starters for Loyola played the entire game (45 minutes including the overtime) without a single substitution !. Almost as amazing was the fact that Cincinnati had 4 starters also play the full 45 minutes without a substitution with George Wilson being the only player for either team to sit out for any time at all. Wilson was out of the game for a total of 4 minutes which brings us to the obvious trivia question. . . Name the sole player who subbed in the game for a 4 minute period.

Other tidbits about the game was the fact that Loyola of Chicago won this game while shooting 27.4% from the field. This was somewhat offset by the fact they only had 3 turnovers the entire game. Loyola had been forced to become "ironmen" since their two top players off the bench were academic casualties after the first semester.

Final trivia question for the "Master Level" about this game. . .Who can name the Ramblers radio broadcaster who became an instant legend in Chicago when the only words he could say after Vic Rouse tipped in the missed shot by Les Hunter were "We Won! We Won! We Won!"

This was the first NCAA Final Championship game in which the majority of starters in the game were African-American with Loyola starting 4 African-Americans and UC starting 3 African-Americans.


JB
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  #1719  
Old 01-12-17, 04:55 PM
rdlwolverine rdlwolverine is offline
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Can't identify the Cincinnati sub or Loyola announcer, but I believe the answer to OWK's question about the Duke player from Lexington in the late 70s, early 80s is Vince Taylor.

Speaking of shooting hoops in the driveway. I spent many hours doing that. I would play Michigan vs UCLA (sometimes Knicks v Lakers) with me performing for both teams. When there would be a change of possession, I would turn away from the basket and pass the ball towards the house, where the objective was to hit the rain gutter with the pass as it would then bounce back to me for a fast break (my dad was not a fan of me passing it off the gutter), if the pass was too high it went up on the roof of the garage (a one story ranch house) and come back slow for a half court possession. If I was too low with the pass and it hit the garage door I think it was a turnover. I believe this made me a much more accurate passer both outlet passes and otherwise. Which leads me to say that separate from assists, passing is the least appreciated part of the game. So many times I will see an offense disrupted by poor passes, not ones that are deflected or intercepted, but just ones that are not between the receiver's waist and chest and make the receiver reach for it, move for it, jump for it or stoop for it, thus disrupting the rhythm of the offense and allowing time for defenders to react. I think this is one of the unrecognized reasons Bo Ryan's teams at Wisconsin were so good, they were good at passing. That's all for my rant today (not sure if it qualifies as a Bevo) and I will save my description of my front yard solo baseball games between the early 60s Yankees and Tigers for another day (hitting the telephone pole on the fly was a triple). Somehow, Michigan, the Knicks and Yankees always won.
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  #1720  
Old 01-12-17, 08:59 PM
One Who Knows One Who Knows is offline
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Things definitely were different in the old days. Bevo is correct about the security around today's players and teams (and, unfortunately, for good reasons). Our society just isn't as safe as it used to be.

I loved rdlwolverine's "bevo" (yes, it qualifies). Thanks for sharing! Before the days of "everything needs to be organized", many of us had to use our imagination to "play games" under very limited conditions. I think there is something to be said for the youth of yesteryear having to be players, coaches, administrators and referees (on the playgrounds). I really think today's athletes, despite being so talented, are missing out on many of the lessons learned on the schoolyard or playground. Oh well, maybe I'm just showing my age, but I always loved the "pure" competition of the schoolyard. It's actually pretty simple - if you're good enough you get chosen to play. If your team is good enough, you stay on the court. When choosing teams, it didn't matter if a player was black, white, rich or poor. It didn't matter if someone's father was on the school board or if they were on unemployment. Players were chosen to help their team win and stay on the court. Some of that is missing with today's young players. Yes, there are many advantages to the AAU programs and organization, but there also are some cons. Anyway, thanks to rdlwolverine for sharing his story about the imaginary games. I think it's something that most of us can identify with.

As for some of the questions/answers:

- rdlwolverine is correct in naming VINCE TAYLOR as the Duke star who played high school ball in Lexington (KY).
- "JB" questions:
....1. RED RUSH was the Chicago announcer famous for the "We Won! We Won! We Won!"
....2. As for Cincinnati's 6th man in the 1963 title game, I'm going to disqualify myself from that answer due to my spending time at UC.

ROCK ON!
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  #1721  
Old 01-12-17, 09:51 PM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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It's all good... I'll try to add more later. Love the memories of the "invented ball field, court, - whatever. Had several. Bevo's front yard in the sixth grade was a minature golf course and a pole vault area; use to kick filed goals off a T under a street light over an electrical/telephone wire right in front of my house - until I broke our neighbor Riley Brewer's radio antennae off his car. One of the great parts of youth is never believing anything would go wrong. Now, it's just the opposite.

Also, still curious about Loyola and those other early 60's teams that were very good and then vanished from the basketball landscape. (Like NYU with Barry Kramer and Hap Harriston, Loyola,etc.)
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  #1722  
Old 01-12-17, 09:58 PM
Johnstown Benny Johnstown Benny is offline
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OWK,

"You Win !, You Win !, You Win ! . . . Red Rush,(what a great name) was indeed the Chicago radio announcer who called the Rambler/Bearcat NCAA final in 1963.
I considered that question as a "Master Level" which really was a mistake as it was truly at the OWK level which is a couple of levels above Master Level !

You know my Newark Wildcats had a UPI 2nd Team All-Ohio player back in the mid 70's named Roy Stutz who later played college hoops at Wittenberg and I was thinking had he played at Cincinnati instead, and if Cotton Nash had played for Loyola of Chicago instead of Kentucky there could have been a Nash Rambler vs.a Stutz Bearcat in the game making a sportswriter's dream.

Appreciate you holding off on the Bearcat sub due to your Cincy connection and maybe someone will come up with the player in question in the next 24 hrs, otherwise go ahead with the answer.

JB
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  #1723  
Old 01-12-17, 10:20 PM
One Who Knows One Who Knows is offline
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"JB" - I'd have loved to have seen a Nash Rambler-Stutz Bearcat match-up. Regarding your 1963 NCAA championship game mention, there are some people in Cincinnati who will never let Larry Shingleton forget about missing the free throw that sent the UC-Loyola of Chicago into overtime. Some folks are just brutal!

Bevo - I don't claim to know about the demise of many of the basketball programs of yesteryear, but I think I can add a little info about NYU. The "Violets" (what kind of nickname is that?) actually were affected by the point-shaving scandal of 1961. That hurt the reputation of the basketball program and then the school ran into financial problems. The school's basketball program was actually dropped for a time. When it was resurrected, the powers to be felt that it was best for NYU to play at the Division III level (where they remain today).

If anyone is interested in reading a really good book about the 1961 point-shaving scandal, check out:
The Wizard of Odds: How Jack Molinas Almost Destroyed the Game of Basketball
https://www.amazon.com/Wizard-Odds-M.../dp/1583225625

ROCK ON!

Last edited by One Who Knows; 01-12-17 at 10:41 PM.
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  #1724  
Old 01-12-17, 10:48 PM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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Great stuff by the hard cores!

The Violets! Kramer, I believe became a dentist. Hap was a great Laker.

Did any of the Ramblers play pro ball?

We use to pole vault in our front yards. We would get a carpet/cane pole that the new carpets came in on. There was a furniture store that would give them to us. My dad, a handy man, built me two standards with notches an inch apart for me to place the cross bar.

There was a periodically abandoned building right across the street from my house. I threw baseballs off the front of it for years. It was our back stop for a whiffle ball game we played with a whiffle golf ball.

We had two places in downtown Upper where we played football at night with one of those hand-size nerf or rubber footballs. We did this in a grocery store parking lot, at the phone company (great lighting!), and next to the court house. We also rode skate boards from the front door of the building to the street because there was a long incline. I lost control of mine one day and a semi smashed it to bits.

For 3-5 years we played whiffle ball on a stone lot next to the Catholic Church. There was a barn in dead center (our green monster) and a privet hedge in left that we smashed to the ground every year by attempting to make game saving catches.

The commissioners of this impromptu league and and I have been friends for 55 years.

We had several basketball courts with outside lights where the home owner would let us play whenever we wanted and one of those had grown sons and the only people who used the court were me and my guys. We played from our early teens to well into our twenties. From bikes to cars.

Of course, like some of you, we had several courts in garages with shorter rim heights. Those didn't last long. Never give a 5'8" guy a chance to dunk!

Showing the time and the place I grew up, the city of Upper Sandusky had two morning softball leagues and a baseball league that was run by the life guards. I played in this for 8 or 9 years. Right before I started teaching I ran the league one year. Really a product of the early and mid 60's because it was gone by '74.

When I was ten, I could start the day in the park playing "morning softball", eat lunch (watch where The Action Is), go to the pool most of the afternoon, , maybe fish in the evening in the park or go back to the pool on hot days, or watch the men play fast pitch softball, and chase foul balls for a dime or quarter (if they ended up in the pond).

When we approached 11 or 12 we could walk up town when the park's activities were finished , get a snack at the Snack Shack and then go home and get ready to do it all over again the next day.

At various times there were little league games and pick up basketball games in the park and around town , and lots of games of "Flies and Grounders" at the East School playground.

We played a hide and seek kind of game in the evening called "Grey Wooly". Sometimes we would have 15-20 people doing this. We ran through the yards like maniacs until dark.

We could even go right from the park to the Sandusky River and swing on vines cut by the older guys out across the water.

And, we went to the movies downtown all of the time! Growing up where I did , when I did, was great!!!

Got sidetracked. Still want to talk about the vanished teams.

My
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  #1725  
Old 01-12-17, 11:01 PM
Johnstown Benny Johnstown Benny is offline
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OWK,

Larry Shingleton, now there's a name I had completely forgotten about. Isn't it strange how some fans can remember a particular shot,even a missed foul shot in a critical game decades later just like it happened last night ?

Since we have been on the subject of Bearcat NCAA Final tournament games, here's another critical shot involving U.C. and the NCAA tournament a couple of years prior to the Loyola of Chicago game. . .In the first meeting with Ohio State back in the 1961 championship game that went into overtime with the Bearcats knocking off the Buckeyes 70-65, does anyone recall who made the layup for OSU that sent the game into overtime ?

JB
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  #1726  
Old 01-12-17, 11:15 PM
One Who Knows One Who Knows is offline
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Bevo - What a great time you must have had growing up in Upper Sandusky. I'm not so sure that today's youth will experience many of the things we did in growing up. That's probably good and bad. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I'm sure many others have similar stories, although Upper Sandusky does seem like a pretty special place...an area to enjoy lots of different activities.

As for your questions/comments:

The last I heard, NYU's Barry Kramer was on the Supreme Court for the State of New York. Many people are probably not aware of the fact that Kramer and Pat Riley attended the same high school in Schenectady, NY.

Les Hunter and Jerry Harkness both played a year or two in the NBA and then played in the ABA. I remember Harkness with the Indiana Pacers, but Hunter played with a number of ABA different teams.

ROCK ON!
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  #1727  
Old 01-12-17, 11:32 PM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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Don't know where I got the dental school stuff. Supreme Court of N.Y. - Wow!

J.B. The Stutz Bearcat and Nash Rambler stuff surely probably doesn't have an English name to describe the "wordplay" because no one can do this!

I'll say Bob Knight made the shot.
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  #1728  
Old 01-12-17, 11:54 PM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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Loyola's records during that time:

60-61: 15-8
61-62: 23-4 (NIT)
62-63: 29-2 (National Champs)
63-64: 22-6 (Lost to Michigan in NCAA)
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  #1729  
Old 01-13-17, 01:46 AM
Johnstown Benny Johnstown Benny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevo View Post
Don't know where I got the dental school stuff. Supreme Court of N.Y. - Wow!

J.B. The Stutz Bearcat and Nash Rambler stuff surely probably doesn't have an English name to describe the "wordplay" because no one can do this!

I'll say Bob Knight made the shot.
Bevo,

You are on the money with your answer of "The General", Bob Knight or "Bobby Knight" as I still call him made that critical layup sending the Buckeye/Bearcat championship game into overtime. They were the only two points he scored in the game.

You know I can remember watching many of those vintage OSU BB games televised on channel 4 the NBC affiliate from Columbus with Jimmy Crum as the announcer and he had so many descriptive signature calls over the course of the year for the Buckeyes. . . .He referred to the Jerry Lucas hook shot as Johnson & Johnson, i.e. soft as baby powder and when two players were fighting for a rebound, he called it "high altitude wrestling" and a very close game right up to the end was known as a "barn-burner". His signature call for any spectacular play was " How About That Sports fans!" He also had a name for Bobby Knight's jump shot because it usually had a very low trajectory, can you remember what he always called Knight's shot ?

A final Jimmy Crum Buckeye basketball question. . .who was the high school student that during the glory years of Lucas, Havlicek, Nowell, Siegfried,and Roberts helped statistician Gary Taylor compile the stats at every home game all through his HS days until he left for college and eventually became very famous after college ?

A few years later in 1971 when Luke Witte was playing for the Buckeyes Jimmy Crum made one of his wild descriptive play by play comments that eventually was written about in a newspaper editorial in The Mt. Vernon News that provides a description of Jimmy's colorful commentary that was nearly as wild as some of his colorful sport coats he wore, much like those the recently departed Craig Sager wore. Jimmy Crum had this to say during an Ohio State-Michigan basketball game after a tip in. . . ." Luke Witte was Johnny-on-the-spot,like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich at high noon ! "

"How About That" for a descriptive game comment. lol.

JB
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  #1730  
Old 01-13-17, 06:14 AM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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"How about that, sports' fans?!" Lived and died with Jimmy's calls. Bill Flemming, also, on the Big Ten Game of the week.

I'll say the riot in Minnesota was his wild, descriptive call (That game was on.)

As for the h.s. kid who became famous and Knight's shot, not sure. How about Richard Lewis for the h.s. guy and "low ball" for Bob's shot.

I've spoken frequently and with great feeling about my dad turning the aeriel with a huge set of plumber's pliers so I could watch OSU hoops with Jimmy. Seems like it was last night.
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  #1731  
Old 01-13-17, 10:07 AM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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Looked up the Ramblers' scores from their championship season (couldn't find them all). I thought maybe we could generate a few comments on the players from the teams they played:

Loyola 123 W. Michigan 102
" 106 Indiana 94
" 93 Seattle 83
" 81 Duke 62
" 94 Memphis 82

" 93 Wyoming 82
" 74 Dayton 69
" 103 Marshall 58
" 88 Loyola L.A. 53
" 87 Marquette 68

" 101 W. Michigan 69
" 96 Kent 55
" 80 Ohio 72
" 92 Santa Clara 72
" 96 Iowa 68

" 92 Marquette 90
" 75 BOWLING GREEN 92
" 72 Houston 68
" 114 Ohio 94
" 73 Wichita St. 72

TOURNEY :
Loyola 111 Tenn. Tech. 42
" 61 Miss. State 51
" 79 Illinois 64
" 94 Duke 75
" 60 Cincy 58 o.t.

I am struck by the high scores. was the defense worse? And, no three-ball!

Who would have been on that Indiana team? Bellamy was gone by this time, right? Tommy Bolyard?

OWK has mentioned those Duke teams with Jeff Mullins and we have discussed their two tall players Hack Tyson and ????. both 6'10", I recall.

Dayton - good forever. Who was on that team?

Ohio U. I have talked at length about O.U.'s center from that era, John Schroeder. John would have been a senior at Norwalk this year. Was recruited by Adolph Rupp, Havlicek and Lucas for the Buckeyes, etc. Schroeder's recruiting visit to B.G. was the night of the huge upset.

Wichita St. Dave Stallworth and another good tall player we have discussed but I can't remember his name.

Is there a Tenn. Tech?

Iowa is on the schedule.

Illinois was decent back then with Tal Brody and Skip Thoren.

Did the name mean to "ramble"; like run over top of things?

Anyone got any memories of this time, great.
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  #1732  
Old 01-13-17, 10:57 AM
rdlwolverine rdlwolverine is offline
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Random thoughts and reactions -
NYU continued to be pretty good for a few years even after the scandal. They were in the finals of the NIT in '65 or '66 against BYU. Their top player that year was Mal Graham. Miami (FL) also discontinued basketball for a while after Rick Barry left.

Re Barry Kramer - the Supreme Court of New York is the trial level court. The highest court in New York is the Court of Appeals. Still impressive, but not quite as impressive as it first sounds.

NYU was #1 in the nation in early '64 season with Kramer and Hairston, until Toledo went into MSG and knocked them off with Larry Jones (Columbus East), Jim Cox (Toledo Macomber) and Ray Wolford (Toledo Scott). Biggest regular season win in Toledo history.

Interestingly, Loyola's only loss noted in Bevo's list in '63 was to BGSU, perhaps BGSU's biggest regular season win ever, with Nate Thurmond and Butch Komives.

The other tall guy on 1963 Duke team was Jay Buckley. As I have mentioned before on here, his brother Bruce played on 1977 NCAA runner up for UNC and was a law school classmate of mine. Jay's son Clay was a reserve for Krzyszewski's championship teams in 1991 and 1992. The 1962 Duke team was also in the NCAA and the captain was Buzz Mewhort from Toledo DeVilbiss. I used to play adult pick up games with him at the Toledo JCC in the 1970s. His grandson Jack Mewhort was an All-American tackle with the Buckeyes and is now with the Indianapolis Colts.

Tal Brody went on to have a huge career in Israel and is one of the country's greatest sports heroes.

Other players from the Loyola schedule in 1963 season that stand out to me:
Manny Newsome (WMU)
Nate Bowman (the big guy for Wichita St)
The Van Arsdale brothers were sophomores that year and I think Jon McGlocklin was in the same class with them or a year behind.
John Tresvant and Eddie Miles were on the Seattle team that year.
Not sure who was on the Marquette team that year, but I think Marty Holmes from Toledo Central Catholic would have been on the freshman team that year. You may be more familiar with his daughter, Katie.
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  #1733  
Old 01-13-17, 11:25 AM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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I did know that about the N.Y. court system; good to recall, though.

Regarding Toledo, I know Brisker and Mix came a long a little bit later; when was that? Brisker was a beast in the ABA, right? For the Pittsburgh Condors? Then vanished into the mist in Uganda or some other place far, far away.

I bet BG was rocking that night. Komives was a very good NBA player and, of course, a prolific scorer in the country in college. Nate the great!

I miss BG and U.T. being exciting and dominant.

I do recall your law school references; great stuff. Jay Buckley and Hack Tyson - wow!

Seems I recall the Israel part about Brody; did not know he was a national sports' legend, though.

OSU and Bradds had some wild matchups in the Big Ten during Gary's junior and senior years.

My friend John Schroeder, the OU great, played against all of these guys and had some very good memories of Tom and Dick Van. I believe you are correct about Jon McGlocken playing then, for I.U., also. Wonder why they weren't better?

Been said on the various sites by me several times. Schroeder brought me his copy of his contract offer from the Supersonics. John had by then played a year or two with The Akron Goodyears and his knees were shot early on. This would have been 67-69? It was for $12,000.

Remember an S.I. cover with Manny Newsome. Wasn't Calvin Murphy there then, also?

Nate Bowman was a stud and that's who I was thinking of.

Katie Holmes?

. Marion Harding went to the state in around '62 with a big stud named Ken Halbert, or Roseberry, and "The Rooster" Al Rowley. Seems like they beat a Toledo team at the buzzer to win the Regionals. I want to say Libby. Harding's coach was a colorful character named Dan Baker. Our boys - until the Dieblers landed here - could never get out of the sectional because we always lost to Harding or St. Pete.

Last edited by Bevo; 01-13-17 at 12:33 PM.
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  #1734  
Old 01-13-17, 11:35 AM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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WAIT- THAT KATIE HOLMES!! That trumps me!!!!

Didn't know if you knew, but a few years ago Dick Cavett lived in B.G. or Perrysburg or married a woman from there.

Also, I believe Al Picanio was married to Beverly DeAngelo who was from Columbus as was Eric Clapton's recent wife.

(Ok - that's enough of that; I am "shaming" myself.)
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  #1735  
Old 01-13-17, 12:15 PM
One Who Knows One Who Knows is offline
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Wow! Lots of great information this morning and I love it.

"JB" - Thanks for the info on Jimmy Crum. Those of us in NE Ohio couldn't access Crum and the Ohio State games during the Lucas-Havlicek era. Also, I'll be interested in finding out the answers to your two trivia questions.

Bevo - Lots of stuff to process! In response to some of your comments:

Loyola of Chicago did indeed score lots of points. They played a fast-paced game. As has been mentioned, they usually only played five players so those guys had to be in great physical shape.

Dayton's big star was Bill Chmelewski (?), their 6-10 center. I can still recall a photo on him with the NIT championship cup on his head.

As for Ohio U, I believe that was the time in which Don Hilt played for the Bobcats.

As for Indiana in 1963, you and rdlwolverine are "spot on" about their players with one exception. Jimmy Rayl, "The Kid from Kokomo", was the star for that '63 Hoosier team.

Yes, there is a Tennessee Tech. It is located in Cookeville and is a member of the Ohio Valley Conference.

I didn't know the origin of the "Ramblers" nickname, so I looked it up on the Loyola website. Supposedly, it came from the football team in the 1920s that "rambled" from one state to another to play games:
http://www.loyolaramblers.com/trads/loyc-trads.html

rdlwolverine - As usual, your "stuff" is exceptional. You brought back many memories, especially when discussing those Toledo and BG teams of the early 1960s. I believe one of Bevo's favorite BG players, Wavey Junior, was on that '63 team. Also on that BG team was Elijah Chatman from Akron Central. He was the star of his high school team that included Nate Thurmond. Chatman was the Akron "Player of the Year" in 1959 while Nate Thurmond was in the process of developing. Chatman and Thurmond were a "package deal" to BG and Elijah Chatman was the more heavily recruited prospect. Coach Andy Anderson, also from Akron, really came up with a gem in Nate Thurmond. Can you image someone who became such a great player being the "B Player" in a package deal to a MAC school. I think that Bob Dwors was also on that Falcon team. I get Dwors and Jeff Gehring (Miami, OH) mixed up as to their hometowns. One was from Ottawa Hills in the Toledo area. I'm sure that rdlwolverine can set me straight. Also, what a nugget from rdl that Katie Holmes' father was a baller at Toledo Central Catholic and Marquette. I was not aware of that, although I did know that Katie had been raised Catholic and was from Toledo.

Well that's enough for now, but thanks to all for the interesting info.

ROCK ON!
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  #1736  
Old 01-13-17, 12:16 PM
Johnstown Benny Johnstown Benny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevo View Post
Looked up the Ramblers' scores from their championship season (couldn't find them all). I thought maybe we could generate a few comments on the players from the teams they played:

Loyola 123 W. Michigan 102
" 106 Indiana 94
" 93 Seattle 83
" 81 Duke 62
" 94 Memphis 82

" 93 Wyoming 82
" 74 Dayton 69
" 103 Marshall 58
" 88 Loyola L.A. 53
" 87 Marquette 68

" 101 W. Michigan 69
" 96 Kent 55
" 80 Ohio 72
" 92 Santa Clara 72
" 96 Iowa 68

" 92 Marquette 90
" 75 BOWLING GREEN 92
" 72 Houston 68
" 114 Ohio 94
" 73 Wichita St. 72

TOURNEY :
Loyola 111 Tenn. Tech. 42
" 61 Miss. State 51
" 79 Illinois 64
" 94 Duke 75
" 60 Cincy 58 o.t.

I am struck by the high scores. was the defense worse? And, no three-ball!

Who would have been on that Indiana team? Bellamy was gone by this time, right? Tommy Bolyard?

OWK has mentioned those Duke teams with Jeff Mullins and we have discussed their two tall players Hack Tyson and ????. both 6'10", I recall.

Dayton - good forever. Who was on that team?

Ohio U. I have talked at length about O.U.'s center from that era, John Schroeder. John would have been a senior at Norwalk this year. Was recruited by Adolph Rupp, Havlicek and Lucas for the Buckeyes, etc. Schroeder's recruiting visit to B.G. was the night of the huge upset.

Wichita St. Dave Stallworth and another good tall player we have discussed but I can't remember his name.

Is there a Tenn. Tech?

Iowa is on the schedule.

Illinois was decent back then with Tal Brody and Skip Thoren.

Did the name mean to "ramble"; like run over top of things?

Anyone got any memories of this time, great.
Bevo,

I just looked up the Ramblers schedule for the 62/63 season and the 7 missing teams from your list of the teams they played that year are:

Christian Brothers
North Dakota
Milwaukee
South Dakota
Arkansas
Washington (MO)
St. Johns

JB
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  #1737  
Old 01-13-17, 11:04 PM
rdlwolverine rdlwolverine is offline
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Oh man, I just made a long reply and it got lost.
Yes, Bevo, Brisker starred for Pittsburgh Condors and then disappeared in Uganda. He and Mix were at UT (still TU to me) from 1967-69. Their best year was 1967 when they only lost two games - to Marshall in MAC regular season and to Va Tech (AKA back then VPI) in the tournament. With a sophomore laden squad in '67, everyone in Toledo expected great things the next couple seasons, but it never happened. Other starters and key contributors on the 1967 team were John Rudley (cue OWK recollections), Bill Backensto, Willie Babione (Fremont St. Joe), Bob Miller and Don White. The real glory days for TU and BGSU basketball was way back in the 40s when Harold Anderson took TU to the NIT final 4, left TU for BGSU and took them to 2 NIT final fours including the championship game.

Calvin Murphy was at Niagara and was more of a contemporary with Alcindor, Maravich, Tomjanovich (HS teammate of Brisker at Hamtramck HS I believe) and Bob Lanier than Manny Newsome. Newsome later became a high administrator at TU and his some starred at Rogers High and then Miami.

Did not know the Dick Cavett connection - may have to look it up.

Jeff Gehring is the one from Ottawa Hills, a tiny suburb of Toledo and its fanciest. Besides Gehring, Tom Scholz, founder of the rock group Boston went there. In the late 60's Jamie O'Hara was a multi sport star at OHHS. He went to Indiana on a football scholarship and played well for a year before tearing up his knee. I think he still holds the IU record for longest punt return. He also went into the music business hitting number one on the country charts as part of the duo, the O'Kanes. He also won a grammy for a song he wrote for one of the Judds.
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  #1738  
Old 01-13-17, 11:48 PM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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I brought teams to Ottawa Hill several times. The old Lakeshore Conference, which included Hopewell-Loudon in Seneca County, also included O.H., Lakeside, and Northwood. Could never quite figure out how the tiny town of Bascom and H.L. could be in something called The Lakeshore Conference! These were the longest days of my teaching/coaching career. The expression "you can't get there from here" strongly applied to Hopewell's road trips.

Still need the info. on Harding's run to state. OWK remembers Dan Baker so maybe he'll pipe in with something.

Thought you all might enjoy a trip down memory lane. It was 11 years ago tonight that junior, Jon Diebler scored 77 points in an Upper Sandusky win over Tiffin Columbian 105-100 at Tiffin. Josh Moore for T.C. had a very pedestrain 52 for the Tornadoes. Additionally, Diebler set a state record for foul shots made in a game by going 27-28. I saw Jon put up 27 in a first quarter game in a sectional (and he sat out the last 1:30) but the 77 was nonhuman.

Here are the single game scoring records in Ohio down to number, 7, Jon Diebler:

1. Dick Bogenrife 120 for Sadala Midway against Cannan. Final 137-46. 1953

2. Dwight Hatfield 89 for Glouster against Chauncey Dover Final 128-54. 1961

3. Glen Whipple 89 for Archbold against Swanton. Final ???. 1922

4. Alan Hornyak 86 for Bellaire St. John Titonsville Warren. Final 123-63. 1969 (Hornyak had another massive scoring game that year; in the 60's, I believe.) (You have to wonder how many the Bellaire bomber would have had with the three-ball.)

5. Larry Huston 81 for Savannah against Perrysville. Final 124-73 1955

6. Mel Frye 80 for Clerington against Stafford. Final 145-37

7. Jon Diebler 77 for Upper Sandusky against Tiffin Columbian. Final 105-100. Jan 13, 2006

Jon should have been in the Association, I believe (Craft and Lighty, also). As it is Jon has had a great career in Turkey playing at thh highest level of Euro ball. I believe his team has won some championships and Jon continues to set records for three-balls. From what I hear he has made very good money. Jon is 28 years old.

He led Upper to one title as a soph., a district final as a junior and a finals' loss his senior year. He scored 48 in that last game, a record that trails only C. Kellogg and Lucas for points made in an OHSAA state final game. Those three years Upper beat Wooster Triway for the state title, lost to Willard and Jim Langhurst in the District final and lost to Dunbar as a senior in the state final. In Upper's title year they ended the season 27-0, the only undefeated team in Ohio that year. The Upper single game scoring record was broken by Jon in his first game for the Rams. The record was over 50 years old. He broke what became his own scoring record many times for the next three years.

Most fun and talented high school player I ever saw in person.

Last edited by Bevo; 01-14-17 at 12:07 AM.
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  #1739  
Old 01-14-17, 08:16 AM
coldshoulder coldshoulder is offline
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Bevo, wasn't it Mal Frye? And what year was it? Thanks.

6. Mel Frye 80 for Clerington against Stafford. Final 145-37

Been enjoying all the New Year's trips down memory lane presented here recently from all the young dudes. Keep 'em comin.
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  #1740  
Old 01-14-17, 08:59 AM
Bevo Bevo is offline
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Two places showed "Mel" ; of course, they could just be repeating an incorrect source.

Feb. 4, 1953

You mean "young dudes", right?
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