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  #8761  
Old 10-11-18, 05:53 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
People would not be so easily rallied if it weren't an issue..
Politicians have been promising free sh*t to people to win votes forever.

"Rich people" don't feel they are "entitled to too much." That is nothing more than a leftist talking point.

You're never going to get equality of outcomes, the best we can do is equality of opportunity. Which is what we have.

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They just call people racist for disagreeing with them.
As did you. You're simply justifying it by citing "undertones" of their disagreements with you.

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The question isn't whether genetics itself plays a role, but whether there are genetic differences in IQ between races.
Right, and there are. Which you apparently deny.

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you would have to have a large sample
How about standardized tests(which are highly correlated with IQ.) Those have massive sample sizes and bear out the same trends. The gap between black and white SAT scores has remained roughly one standard deviation with little change in the last 20 years

http://www.aei.org/wp-content/upload...0IQ-Murray.pdf



I'm guessing the counter here would be that blacks are on average poorer than whites, and that accounts for this gap.

The issue here is, there is no evidence that poverty significantly lowers the heritability of intelligence.

https://openpsych.net/files/papers/Fuerst_2014a.pdf



Quote:
but as far as I can tell, when people from non-Western countries move to Western countries and they take advantage of the benefits of that society, over time their or their progeny's IQ normalizes with the general population, ~100 IQ.
I know this was a talking point from a Vox article attempting to counter Murray's work, not sure if that's where you got it from, but it's not credible.

At birth adoption gives us the best real world test we can possibly have in regards to nature vs nurture in determining IQ. A French study found the effect of the employment status of the biological father 3x's larger than the corresponding effect of the adoptive father's occupational status.

http://laplab.ucsd.edu/articles2/Lee2010.pdf


Certainly no one knows EXACTLY how much genetics play a role in IQ, but most of the research indicates it's a significant amount. This is widely accepted in the scientific community that studies these things



Progressives want to discredit this as inherently "racist" because it flies in the face of their core ideology(that there is not equality of opportunity and the government must be the means to create it.) Which circles us back to your first point about rich people having too much, another leftist talking point. So hopefully you'll understand if there is confusion over your vitriol towards progressives, when there appears to be, at least in a few cases, distinction with little difference between they and you.
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  #8762  
Old 10-11-18, 06:15 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Politicians have been promising free sh*t to people to win votes forever.

"Rich people" don't feel they are "entitled to too much." That is nothing more than a leftist talking point.

You're never going to get equality of outcomes, the best we can do is equality of opportunity. Which is what we have.
You don't get such social hostilities when people are content with their lot, even if you compare them to someone who is better off. If they feel like they've been dealt unfairly, then you get these issues, most of which stem from work problems.

The fact you think I advocate equality of outcome is just one more piece of evidence that you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. But go on, continue to attack strawmen. I'm sure you feel like you're winning.

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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
As did you. You're simply justifying it by citing "undertones" of their disagreements with you.
When people are talking about racial inferiorities in a roundabout way, it's not just a claim or bogus justification. I don't hurtle such accusations without good reason, and it's clear there have been a number of posters on here who have some racist proclivities.

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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Right, and there are. Which you apparently deny.
There are not until we have something conclusive. Using a bunch of semi-related studies is not proof. The actual thing has to be studied on a truly racial level, not a national level.

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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
How about standardized tests(which are highly correlated with IQ.) Those have massive sample sizes and bear out the same trends. The gap between black and white SAT scores has remained roughly one standard deviation with little change in the last 20 years

http://www.aei.org/wp-content/upload...0IQ-Murray.pdf



I'm guessing the counter here would be that blacks are on average poorer than whites, and that accounts for this gap.

The issue here is, there is no evidence that poverty significantly lowers the heritability of intelligence.

https://openpsych.net/files/papers/Fuerst_2014a.pdf





I know this was a talking point from a Vox article attempting to counter Murray's work, not sure if that's where you got it from, but it's not credible.

At birth adoption gives us the best real world test we can possibly have in regards to nature vs nurture in determining IQ. A French study found the effect of the employment status of the biological father 3x's larger than the corresponding effect of the adoptive father's occupational status.

http://laplab.ucsd.edu/articles2/Lee2010.pdf


Certainly no one knows EXACTLY how much genetics play a role in IQ, but most of the research indicates it's a significant amount. This is widely accepted in the scientific community that studies these things



Progressives want to discredit this as inherently "racist" because it flies in the face of their core ideology(that there is not equality of opportunity and the government must be the means to create it.) Which circles us back to your first point about rich people having too much, another leftist talking point. So hopefully you'll understand if there is confusion over your vitriol towards progressives, when there appears to be, at least in a few cases, distinction with little difference between they and you.
The best gauge we have is the study of immigrants to Western nations, and despite what you wish to believe, their is marked improvement in IQ when this group is studied. I have no idea what Vox said about it and I don't doubt they used it for their own stupid purposes, but the data is solid.

The problem here is you're not actually arguing for racial IQ differences, but IQ differences between whites and blacks in the US. This is an entirely different animal.
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  #8763  
Old 10-11-18, 06:38 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
You don't get such social hostilities when people are content with their lot, even if you compare them to someone who is better off. If they feel like they've been dealt unfairly
What would be a satisfactory % of profits for the owner to be allowed to keep in order for people to feel like they've been treated "fairly" in your mind?

Quote:
it's clear there have been a number of posters on here who have some racist proclivities.
I'm sure that's as clear to you as it is to progressives that Republicans are racist.

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There are not until we have something conclusive. Using a bunch of semi-related studies is not proof. The actual thing has to be studied on a truly racial level, not a national level.
There is plentiful evidence that there are biological differences between the races, one of which is intelligence. We know intelligence is largely heritable, and there is no evidence that poverty significantly lowers the heritability of intelligence. It kind of only leads to one conclusion, that it is at least a significant factor. Not the only factor, but a significant one.

You asked for studies, and I've linked you to multiple from various sources studying various populations both in the US and abroad. But I'm beginning to think you're not particularly inclined to engage with them given you couldn't have even read any of the absracts prior to responding. So it seems we're back to square one of "it's racist" as the default response here.

It brings to mind this quote on the Google diversity memo, arguing something very similar to what I'm stating here(but with biological differences between sexes rather than races obviously.)

......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
"Show me the references" is a common tactic used by Progressives when someone says something they don't agree with, and upon receiving the asked-for references will simply dismiss them
Like Trump's tweets, you seem to have a post for everything.
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  #8764  
Old 10-11-18, 06:59 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
The GOP has an angry crowd literally chanting "lock her up"

Plenty of violence at Trump campaign rallies.

If ANTIFA and BLM are democratic mobs. GOP has to own White Supremist/Nazi group in Charlottesville. Both are the extreme ends with own agenda.
You are wrong. There is far more evidence of Hilary's wrong doing than Kavanaugh.

There aren't stories of White Supremecists trying to occupy a city, drag 70 year old white man out of their car, and beat them.

The things you are comparing are not equal.
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  #8765  
Old 10-11-18, 07:23 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
There aren't stories of White Supremecists trying to occupy a city, drag 70 year old white man out of their car, and beat them.
Where'd that happen?
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  #8766  
Old 10-11-18, 07:45 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Where'd that happen?
Portland.
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  #8767  
Old 10-11-18, 07:52 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
Portland.
Are referring to the video where the guy got out of his car, checked the front of it, got back in and drove off? The antifa folks were being aholes, but why would they attempt to drag someone from a car they had exited on their own?
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  #8768  
Old 10-11-18, 08:10 PM
zeeman zeeman is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Are referring to the video where the guy got out of his car, checked the front of it, got back in and drove off? The antifa folks were being aholes, but why would they attempt to drag someone from a car they had exited on their own?
Well that was easy, feel better?
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  #8769  
Old 10-11-18, 08:17 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
The GOP has an angry crowd literally chanting ... .
"chanting" ... so violent.
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  #8770  
Old 10-11-18, 08:55 PM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Woman wear tape over their mouths - angry mobs.
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  #8771  
Old 10-11-18, 09:06 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
Find a city with a large public university and you'll find a growing pocket of Progressives and politicians who bend the knee. Columbus will be the first Ohio city to fall, and it will happen before 2030.
Already have...indigenous people's day.

How long before they change the name of the city?
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  #8772  
Old 10-11-18, 09:16 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Are referring to the video where the guy got out of his car, checked the front of it, got back in and drove off? The antifa folks were being aholes, but why would they attempt to drag someone from a car they had exited on their own?
No, I'm not.
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  #8773  
Old 10-11-18, 09:19 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
What would be a satisfactory % of profits for the owner to be allowed to keep in order for people to feel like they've been treated "fairly" in your mind?
If people believe they've been adequately compensated for their work and they live a comfortable life, then it doesn't really matter to them how rich the owner is. So, the solution is along the lines of what is accepted as adequate work compensation. For that, there is no universal figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
I'm sure that's as clear to you as it is to progressives that Republicans are racist.
No, I didn't go into the discussion with the preconception that I was dealing with racists simply because they're Republican.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
There is plentiful evidence that there are biological differences between the races, one of which is intelligence. We know intelligence is largely heritable, and there is no evidence that poverty significantly lowers the heritability of intelligence. It kind of only leads to one conclusion, that it is at least a significant factor. Not the only factor, but a significant one.

You asked for studies, and I've linked you to multiple from various sources studying various populations both in the US and abroad. But I'm beginning to think you're not particularly inclined to engage with them given you couldn't have even read any of the absracts prior to responding. So it seems we're back to square one of "it's racist" as the default response here.

It brings to mind this quote on the Google diversity memo, arguing something very similar to what I'm stating here(but with biological differences between sexes rather than races obviously.)

......



Like Trump's tweets, you seem to have a post for everything.
When you say biological differences, you're not being very specific. Race is simply the likelihood of a certain pattern of genes in a group. Humans share the same DNA, it's simply a matter of what is expressed physically that informs our perception of race. So, right away, we can say that there can be no fundamental different in IQ between the races, but we may see different expressions of IQ between them for various reasons. For example, we might observe a difference in IQ in geography. People in Africa do not have a many natural obstacles that require complex problem solving, compared to most other places of the world, like Europe or Asia or the middle east - the weather is more stable and comfortable, requiring less complex shelter, clothing, etc. in order to survive. Similarly, we don't see complex civilizations develop in places with short growing seasons, but it's not because the people are genetically predisposed to primitive living, their environment simply limits their abilities. If we move them, and they accept their new surroundings, it does not take long before there is little discernible difference between them and their new society. So no, none of your evidence actually proves what you want it to, and that's the issue. The best piece of evidence is how immigrants from the 3rd world fair once they settle in a Western country. I know it's inconvenient for you since you seem to have chosen this hill to die on for whatever reason, but within a generation or two, they achieve the societal IQ average.
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  #8774  
Old 10-11-18, 09:29 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
If people believe they've been adequately compensated for their work and they live a comfortable life, then it doesn't really matter to them how rich the owner is. So, the solution is along the lines of what is accepted as adequate work compensation. For that, there is no universal figure.



No, I didn't go into the discussion with the preconception that I was dealing with racists simply because they're Republican.



When you say biological differences, you're not being very specific. Race is simply the likelihood of a certain pattern of genes in a group. Humans share the same DNA, it's simply a matter of what is expressed physically that informs our perception of race. So, right away, we can say that there can be no fundamental different in IQ between the races, but we may see different expressions of IQ between them for various reasons. For example, we might observe a difference in IQ in geography. People in Africa do not have a many natural obstacles that require complex problem solving, compared to most other places of the world, like Europe or Asia or the middle east - the weather is more stable and comfortable, requiring less complex shelter, clothing, etc. in order to survive. Similarly, we don't see complex civilizations develop in places with short growing seasons, but it's not because the people are genetically predisposed to primitive living, their environment simply limits their abilities. If we move them, and they accept their new surroundings, it does not take long before there is little discernible difference between them and their new society. So no, none of your evidence actually proves what you want it to, and that's the issue. The best piece of evidence is how immigrants from the 3rd world fair once they settle in a Western country. I know it's inconvenient for you since you seem to have chosen this hill to die on for whatever reason, but within a generation or two, they achieve the societal IQ average.
And we have many on the left who believe "fairly compensated " means 15 bucks an hour to flip burgers.
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  #8775  
Old 10-11-18, 09:39 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Originally Posted by y2h View Post
And we have many on the left who believe "fairly compensated " means 15 bucks an hour to flip burgers.
This issue in particular can be blamed, at least largely, on society's demonization of manual labor and the concurrent funneling of young people into universities regardless of whether they should be or want to be. If there are millions of trade jobs available that pay more than $15/hr, what's stopping people from going that route? This issue goes a bit beyond mere compensation and right into willingness to do the work that's available.
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  #8776  
Old 10-11-18, 09:44 PM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
This issue in particular can be blamed, at least largely, on society's demonization of manual labor and the concurrent funneling of young people into universities regardless of whether they should be or want to be. If there are millions of trade jobs available that pay more than $15/hr, what's stopping people from going that route? This issue goes a bit beyond mere compensation but right into willingness to do that work that's available.
People can go that route ....but wage rates for manual labor have been flat for a long time. People with college degrees make more money and have more opportunities.
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  #8777  
Old 10-11-18, 09:49 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
So, the solution is along the lines of what is accepted as adequate work compensation. For that, there is no universal figure.
Seems like a good solution would be an open market where people could sell their labor to the highest bidder. If only we had something like that already...


Quote:
it's simply a matter of what is expressed physically that informs our perception of race.
Going with the "race is a social construct" line huh?

Quote:
So no, none of your evidence actually proves what you want it to, and that's the issue.
It's quite obvious that despite your request for material on the subject, you haven't actually read anything I've provided as this is now the 2nd time you've used a rebuttal that is already addressed in the research. See below.

Quote:
within a generation or two, they achieve the societal IQ average.
To be clear, neither myself or any credible research is stating that differences in IQ are 100% caused by genetics. Just that a significant portion is. You are the one arguing in absolutes here. Arguing that despite there being readily observable genetic differences between races, and with the knowledge intelligence is at least substantially inherited, there is amazingly zero relationship between race and intelligence. and that believing otherwise makes one "racist"(assuming they also fit the definition of having racist undertones in their comments according to your observations.)

I can think of few things more progressive than rebutting scientific findings with cries of racism. There is little distinction between that and arguing observing differences in competency between men & women is sexist.
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  #8778  
Old 10-11-18, 09:54 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
People can go that route ....but wage rates for manual labor have been flat for a long time. People with college degrees make more money and have more opportunities.
Flat but higher paying is still higher paying.

There's no reason to demand a wage so obscene that it makes checkout kiosks more viable than hiring people, which is what the idiots who call for a $15 minimum wage are effectively doing.

People with college degrees can make more, but it obviously depends on the field of study. Getting a degree in English or history is likely not going to land someone a job making more than an electrician ($49k and $41k vs. $52k), not even factoring in loan debt.
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  #8779  
Old 10-11-18, 10:05 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
This issue in particular can be blamed, at least largely, on society's demonization of manual labor and the concurrent funneling of young people into universities regardless of whether they should be or want to be. If there are millions of trade jobs available that pay more than $15/hr, what's stopping people from going that route? This issue goes a bit beyond mere compensation and right into willingness to do the work that's available.
I agree with that. Trade schools are undervalued.
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  #8780  
Old 10-11-18, 10:06 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
This issue goes a bit beyond mere compensation and right into willingness to do the work that's available.
Agreed with this. And I'd say this is far closer to the core issues challenging the job market over the past decade or so than the "rich people = greedy" boogeyman.
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  #8781  
Old 10-11-18, 10:07 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
The GOP has an angry crowd literally chanting "lock her up"

Plenty of violence at Trump campaign rallies.

If ANTIFA and BLM are democratic mobs. GOP has to own White Supremist/Nazi group in Charlottesville. Both are the extreme ends with own agenda.
Hmmm, still no calls for kicking people. Harassing them while eating. Attacking their children, etc. All elements of Democrat responses.
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  #8782  
Old 10-11-18, 10:42 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Seems like a good solution would be an open market where people could sell their labor to the highest bidder. If only we had something like that already...
It would be. That would require employers being honest instead of actively underpaying employees to save labor costs.

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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Going with the "race is a social construct" line huh?
No, that's not what I said at all.

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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
It's quite obvious that despite your request for material on the subject, you haven't actually read anything I've provided as this is now the 2nd time you've used a rebuttal that is already addressed in the research. See below.
You provided a bunch of semi-related things largely focused on whites and blacks in America, and at least one appeal to authority. I'm open to the possibility, but if you're going to claim this to be irrefutable on a racial/genetic level, then you need to show it. You have not.

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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
To be clear, neither myself or any credible research is stating that differences in IQ are 100% caused by genetics. Just that a significant portion is. You are the one arguing in absolutes here. Arguing that despite there being readily observable genetic differences between races, and with the knowledge intelligence is at least substantially inherited, there is amazingly zero relationship between race and intelligence. and that believing otherwise makes one "racist"(assuming they also fit the definition of having racist undertones in their comments according to your observations.)

I can think of few things more progressive than rebutting scientific findings with cries of racism. There is little distinction between that and arguing observing differences in competency between men & women is sexist.
You claimed the difference in IQ between races as being genetically based. That is an absolute, and your comments prior do not state otherwise. You're backtracking.

For your conclusion, that the IQ differences are genetically based, to be correct, you have to be willing to say that it is impossible for the average IQ of Africans to match the average IQ of Asians or Westerners short of eugenics to selectively breed out people below whatever threshold is required. If this were true, we would not see African immigrants improve their IQs over time to match that of Western society. But that is exactly what is observed.

I think you are confused because things do seem to play out differently in America when examining whites and African Americans. What is really interesting, to me, is the comparison of African immigrants to African Americans. If the issue was primarily genetic, we would expect to see no gap in achievement between the two groups on average, but in actuality the gap between them is so wide that in some places AAs are actually pitting themselves against African immigrants as they see them as stealing their opportunities.
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  #8783  
Old 10-11-18, 10:43 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Agreed with this. And I'd say this is far closer to the core issues challenging the job market over the past decade or so than the "rich people = greedy" boogeyman.
It is a matter of perception. If people feel as though they've been treated fairly and they feel they live a comfortable life, they typically don't care all that much about what other people are making. But when they do feel like they're getting a raw deal, they get upset. Claims about the 1% are only appealing if people are already feeling mistreated. It is amazing how little this talking point is being utilized now that the economy is booming, isn't it? That's because it's now much less effective.

The solution I propose to head it off all together is honesty in owner-employee dealings. No "paying in experience". No low-ball offers to those who aren't slick negotiators. No asking for absurd, unaffordable raises. Etc.

Last edited by Crusaders; 10-11-18 at 10:55 PM.
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  #8784  
Old 10-12-18, 02:42 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
It would be. That would require employers being honest instead of actively underpaying employees to save labor cost.
First , I have enjoyed reading this debate, very well stated by all involved.


As to this statement about employers and "actively underpaying employees", this is not logical in general.

Employers are competing with the other businesses who produce the same widget that they produce, making pay scales a competitive process and not some arbitrary function. An employer has to pay at a rate to secure the services of the employee while at the same time not at too high a rate that causes them to be unable to compete with the end price of their product or service.

There is a range of acceptable pay for each job and little the employer can do to change this either up or down, without threatening their own competitiveness and risking their livelihood.
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  #8785  
Old 10-12-18, 03:03 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
People can go that route ....but wage rates for manual labor have been flat for a long time. People with college degrees make more money and have more opportunities.
For years the best and brightest went to college, so would you not expect the result of higher wages for those possessing a college degree?

It would be an interesting study to look at sub cultures who avoid college for religious reasons and see if their best and brightest who did not go to college earn as much or more than the college graduate?

I have observed a passionate individual can and will earn more than a dispassionate regardless of formal education, so long as they are willing to self educate. One such sub culture I routinely have contact with produces many successful self employed individuals who typically own businesses relating to the trades or agriculture. As a group, their individual earnings are significantly higher than mere college graduates.

My experience is it is not the degree, but the person who determines the value and potential earning power. It is not the lack of formal education, but the lack of drive and passion that restricts earnings of those who do not have a college degree.
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  #8786  
Old 10-12-18, 05:32 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
For years the best and brightest went to college, so would you not expect the result of higher wages for those possessing a college degree?

It would be an interesting study to look at sub cultures who avoid college for religious reasons and see if their best and brightest who did not go to college earn as much or more than the college graduate?

I have observed a passionate individual can and will earn more than a dispassionate regardless of formal education, so long as they are willing to self educate. One such sub culture I routinely have contact with produces many successful self employed individuals who typically own businesses relating to the trades or agriculture. As a group, their individual earnings are significantly higher than mere college graduates.

My experience is it is not the degree, but the person who determines the value and potential earning power. It is not the lack of formal education, but the lack of drive and passion that restricts earnings of those who do not have a college degree.
Amish?
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Old 10-12-18, 06:34 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Amish?
Some call them Amish, technically they are Brethren as in German Baptist Brethren. Located primarily in the CCC school districts area of Ohio ( Covington , Bethel, Miami East, Tri County North, Twin Valley South , Tri Village, Mississinawa, Arcanum, Franklin Monroe, Bradford, Newton. ).

They generally have vehicles and electricity, but no TV or radio. Afew have horse and buggies or drive tractors , they are the "old order" of the German Baptist.
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Old 10-12-18, 06:53 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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You certainly can be successful and make lots of money without going to college, but not as a laborer. You need to be a business owner.
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Old 10-12-18, 07:02 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Taco MacArthur has a little shameless behaviour in the past
lol at people thinking everyone voted for Bernie because of his policies and not because it was a vote against Hillary. Hell, I'm almost sure I remember reading a few on here saying they voted for Bernie in the Democrat primary so he would win the nomination, as they viewed him as an easier defeat than Hillary.
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Old 10-12-18, 07:03 AM
19AL63 19AL63 is offline
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A wise man once told me if all you want is a good living you can work for someone else, but if you want to be wealthy you must be in business for. yourself. Working for wages from someone you are not going to make yourself rich but you just might make the person you are working for rich. I have always thought you should do what makes you the happiest while you are here on earth because when it is over we all leave the same with nothing.
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