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  #361  
Old 01-25-17, 11:32 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
Thank you. The way you describe it makes it easier in my mind now to understand what is going on.

You mentioned another point in your response that I would like to discuss a little bit. Severe contact. When can there be a no call with severe contact? Is it something to do with the contact did not make an advantage or disadvantage to either player? I have seen a few plays this year with huge amounts of contact, mostly in fastbreak situations. But those scenarios the offense player really did not lose the ball, fall over (etc), and the contact really did not help the defense to much. Is this why no call?
Two examples...... (there can be other situations as well)

- Ball is loose, bouncing high into the air. A23 and B12 are converging on the ball from opposite directions. Both leap into the air and collide violently causing both to fall to the ground without the ball.......

- A12 is in possession of the ball in B's back court. B10 is closely guarding A12 in the back court as A12 attempts to advance to the front court. A42 positions himself legally at the division line with the intent of allowing A12 to use him as a screen to free himself from B10. A12 starts to get past B10 causing B10 to turn (at full speed) and attempt to chase A12, however his teammates do not alert him to the fact that he is about to run into the legally positioned A42 at the division line. B10 violently crashes into A42 and falls to the floor in a heap, while A42 doesn't budge.......

In both situations, there is violent, but legal, contact.
In both situations, people will be screaming for a foul.

If the official has no whistle in either situation, he is correct in judging the contact, even though violent, to be incidental and legal, even if someone sustains an injury due to the contact. (Rule 4-27-2)

Last edited by AllSports12; 01-25-17 at 06:38 PM.
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  #362  
Old 01-25-17, 11:49 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Two examples...... (there can be other situations as well)

- Ball is loose, bouncing high into the air. A23 and B12 are converging on the ball from opposite directions. Both leap into the air and collide violently causing both to fall to the ground without the ball.......

- A12 is in possession of the ball in B's back court. B10 is closely guarding A12 in the back court as A12 attempts to advance to the front court. A42 positions himself legally at the division line with the intent of allowing A12 to use him as a screen to free himself from B10. A12 starts to get past B10 causing B10 to turn (at full speed) and attempt to chase A12, however his teammates do not alert him to the fact that he is about to run into the legally positioned A42 at the division line. B10 violently crashes into A42 and falls to the floor in a heap, while A42 doesn't budge.......

In both situations, there is violent, but legal, contact.
In both situations, people will be screaming for a foul.

If the official has no whistle in either situation, he is correct in judging the contact, even though violent, to be incidental and legal, even if someone sustains an injury due to the contact. (Rule 4-27-2)
Good stuff thank you!

Last edited by AllSports12; 01-25-17 at 06:39 PM.
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  #363  
Old 01-25-17, 12:39 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
Good stuff thank you!
Those are great questions.
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  #364  
Old 02-03-17, 10:19 AM
TriangleMan TriangleMan is offline
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This comes from a 2013 post on http://ohsaabasketball.com/rules/traveling-violations/.

“On a drive to the basket, when a player ends his dribble and collects the ball, he is permitted 2 steps prior to releasing the ball on a shot or a pass. Count the steps: 1 ‐ 2 is legal; 1 ‐ 2 ‐ 3 is not. If you get to 3 and the offensive player is still holding the ball, call a traveling violation.”

Does this mean that any sequence of three steps is a violation? I can see where the feet touching the ground in the sequence R-L-R would be a travel, but is it also a travel when the right foot lands first, followed by the left and then the left is lifted and lands again (R-L-L)?
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  #365  
Old 02-03-17, 10:59 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriangleMan View Post
This comes from a 2013 post on http://ohsaabasketball.com/rules/traveling-violations/.

“On a drive to the basket, when a player ends his dribble and collects the ball, he is permitted 2 steps prior to releasing the ball on a shot or a pass. Count the steps: 1 ‐ 2 is legal; 1 ‐ 2 ‐ 3 is not. If you get to 3 and the offensive player is still holding the ball, call a traveling violation.”

Does this mean that any sequence of three steps is a violation? I can see where the feet touching the ground in the sequence R-L-R would be a travel, but is it also a travel when the right foot lands first, followed by the left and then the left is lifted and lands again (R-L-L)?
If the right foot has been lifted, then yes that RLL is a violation of the travel rule. If the right foot has not moved off it's spot, then any number of movements with the left foot is legal.
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  #366  
Old 02-03-17, 12:59 PM
TriangleMan TriangleMan is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
If the right foot has been lifted, then yes that RLL is a violation of the travel rule. If the right foot has not moved off it's spot, then any number of movements with the left foot is legal.
Thanks for the clarification.

It just bothers me when a player does the R-L-L move above, the right foot stays nailed to the floor without any slide, the defensive bench and fans all scream “TRAVEL!”, and the player is called for travelling.
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  #367  
Old 02-07-17, 11:05 PM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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Team A's player drives toward the basket and goes up and puts the ball up and it goes in. During this process he collides with two players on Team B.

Ref A calls a charge, Ref B calls a block. All three refs confer and the outcome is a jump ball, with no points awarded.

Is this the proper way of handling that? I would think if they really couldn't decide, call it an inadvertent whistle, award the two points, and play on.
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  #368  
Old 02-07-17, 11:17 PM
PostOrPickScore PostOrPickScore is offline
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If both officials actually hit their whistle and had different signal calls (block and a charge) you have a double foul. Each player is charged with the personal foul, the basket should count and the defensive team gets the ball. St. V/Hoban ?
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  #369  
Old 02-07-17, 11:22 PM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PostOrPickScore View Post
If both officials actually hit their whistle and had different signal calls (block and a charge) you have a double foul. Each player is charged with the personal foul, the basket should count and the defensive team gets the ball. St. V/Hoban ?
Yes, St V/Hoban. Neither team got a foul, and with the jump ball/possession arrow call the ball went to St V. (who was on defense at the time)
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  #370  
Old 02-08-17, 07:50 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy27 View Post
Team A's player drives toward the basket and goes up and puts the ball up and it goes in. During this process he collides with two players on Team B.

Ref A calls a charge, Ref B calls a block. All three refs confer and the outcome is a jump ball, with no points awarded.

Is this the proper way of handling that? I would think if they really couldn't decide, call it an inadvertent whistle, award the two points, and play on.
Under NHFS rules you have the dreaded "Blarge" (combination Block/Charge). By rule (as PostorPick noted) this is a double foul and because of this, there are now three possible rulings to consider......... all based on when the contact occurred.........

If prior to the contact, the ball was released on a try and the try was successful, then the basket would be awarded to A, both players would be charged with a personal foul, and the ball would be put back into play at the point of interruption. B would be awarded a throw-in from anywhere along the end line.

If prior to the contact, the ball was released on a try and the try was unsuccessful, then both players would be charged with a personal foul and a designated spot throw-in would be awarded using the alternating possession arrow.

If the contact occurred prior to the ball being released, the ball is dead immediately, both players would be charged with a personal foul and A would put the ball back into play with a designated spot throw-in.

From what you posted about the play, the crew got it wrong.
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  #371  
Old 02-08-17, 07:54 AM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Under NHFS rules you have the dreaded "Blarge" (combination Block/Charge). By rule (as PostorPick noted) this is a double foul and because of this, there are now three possible rulings to consider......... all based on when the contact occurred.........

If prior to the contact, the ball was released on a try and the try was successful, then the basket would be awarded to A, both players would be charged with a personal foul, and the ball would be put back into play at the point of interruption. B would be awarded a throw-in from anywhere along the end line.

If prior to the contact, the ball was released on a try and the try was unsuccessful, then both players would be charged with a personal foul and a designated spot throw-in would be awarded using the alternating possession arrow.

If the contact occurred prior to the ball being released, the ball is dead immediately, both players would be charged with a personal foul and A would put the ball back into play with a designated spot throw-in.

From what you posted about the play, the crew got it wrong.
Thanks. From my vantage point on the baseline, it looked like the third option would have been the correct one.
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  #372  
Old 02-08-17, 07:59 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy27 View Post
Thanks. From my vantage point on the baseline, it looked like the third option would have been the correct one.
If the ball went in, either A is going to get the points and B gets the ball or A gets no points (due to the ball being dead immediately) and keeps the ball.
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  #373  
Old 02-08-17, 02:40 PM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
If the ball went in, either A is going to get the points and B gets the ball or A gets no points (due to the ball being dead immediately) and keeps the ball.
The ball definitely went in, it looked to me like contact was made as the ball was released or just prior.

Edit: here is the point where contact was made: https://i.imgur.com/6oR0Dix.jpg

Last edited by Andy27; 02-08-17 at 04:26 PM.
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  #374  
Old 02-08-17, 05:14 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy27 View Post
The ball definitely went in, it looked to me like contact was made as the ball was released or just prior.

Edit: here is the point where contact was made: https://i.imgur.com/6oR0Dix.jpg
If the contact that caused both officials to rule a foul occurred at this moment in time, then the ball is dead immediately. A foul on both the players should have been reported to the scorer's table and Team A (Hoban) should have been awarded the ball out of bounds at the spot nearest to the foul. No points by rule would have been scored.
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  #375  
Old 02-08-17, 05:56 PM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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Ok thanks.

I was just talking toCoach Dru and he said by rule it would be ball goes to whoever holds the possession arrow. Do you know what section of the rules this is addressed in? I'd like to look it up when I get home.
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  #376  
Old 02-08-17, 09:46 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy27 View Post
Ok thanks.

I was just talking toCoach Dru and he said by rule it would be ball goes to whoever holds the possession arrow. Do you know what section of the rules this is addressed in? I'd like to look it up when I get home.
Coach is incorrect.

The Case Book covers when the contact occurs after the ball is released...


4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official rules a blocking foul on B1 and the other official rules a charging foul on A1. The try is (a) successful, or (b) not successful.

RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try. In (a), the goal is scored; play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. In (b), the point of interruption is a try in flight; therefore the alternating-possession procedure is used. (4-36)

************************************************** ********
If the contact occurs while in team control, it's simply a double foul and the team in control is awarded the ball out of bounds for a designated spot throw-in. (see bold type)

Rule 4-36 POINT OF INTERRUPTION

ART. 1 . . .
Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6, a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and 4-19-10.

ART. 2...
Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. A jump ball or alternating-possession throw-in when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved when the game is interrupted.
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  #377  
Old 02-08-17, 10:28 PM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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Thanks. For the record contact definitely occurred before the ball was released.

Edit: He was in the shooting motion though, if that is at all relevant. And from talking to someonewho watched the vide, both officials signaled at the exact same time.

Last edited by Andy27; 02-08-17 at 11:53 PM.
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  #378  
Old 02-09-17, 12:34 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy27 View Post
Thanks. For the record contact definitely occurred before the ball was released.

Edit: He was in the shooting motion though, if that is at all relevant. And from talking to someonewho watched the vide, both officials signaled at the exact same time.
If the contact occurred before the ball was released then it's dead immediately. There is no continuous motion since there was a foul on the offense. Assess a double foul and resume play at the point of interruption, a throw-in for the offense.
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  #379  
Old 02-09-17, 07:35 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Already been covered, zebra.
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  #380  
Old 02-09-17, 11:55 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Already been covered, zebra.
DOH! You're right.
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  #381  
Old 02-09-17, 02:42 PM
TriangleMan TriangleMan is offline
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This happened in the George Washington-VCU game last night and was wondering the NFHS ruling.

A inbounding the ball on the baseline after B made a FG. A1, guarded by B1, runs the baseline. A2, with one foot in-bounds and the other foot out-of-bounds, sets a screen on B1 and B1 knocks A2 to the ground. Foul called on B1.

What is the ruling in NFHS? Does the position of A2’s feet matter?
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  #382  
Old 02-09-17, 03:34 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by TriangleMan View Post
This happened in the George Washington-VCU game last night and was wondering the NFHS ruling.

A inbounding the ball on the baseline after B made a FG. A1, guarded by B1, runs the baseline. A2, with one foot in-bounds and the other foot out-of-bounds, sets a screen on B1 and B1 knocks A2 to the ground. Foul called on B1.

What is the ruling in NFHS? Does the position of A2’s feet matter?
Under NFHS rules, a player has violated if they leave the court for an unauthorized reason.

In this case, setting a screen with a foot out of bounds creates this violation. B is awarded the ball at the spot of this violation.
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  #383  
Old 02-14-17, 04:10 PM
serpico serpico is offline
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Foul shot question...

First shot of one-and-bonus. While ball is still in shooter's hands, B1 on low block steps into the lane, and A1 (right next to her) does the same closely thereafter, with ball still in shooter's hands.

What is the correct call? Does it matter that B1 went first?
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  #384  
Old 02-14-17, 06:49 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by serpico View Post
Foul shot question...

First shot of one-and-bonus. While ball is still in shooter's hands, B1 on low block steps into the lane, and A1 (right next to her) does the same closely thereafter, with ball still in shooter's hands.

What is the correct call? Does it matter that B1 went first?
If there is a violation first by the free-thrower's opponent followed by the free thrower or a teammate, the second violation is ignored...... if both players guilty of violating were both occupying marked lane spaces....

I posted the rule below....


If there is a violation first by the free-thrower's opponent followed by the
free thrower or a teammate:

a. If both offenders are in a marked lane-space, the second violation is
ignored, as in penalty item (2).

b. If the second violation is by the free thrower or a teammate behind the
free-throw line extended and the three-point line, both violations are
penalized, as in penalty item (3).

c. If a violation by the free thrower follows disconcertion by an opponent,
a substitute free throw shall be awarded.

d. If a fake by an opponent causes the free thrower or a teammate of the
free thrower to violate, only the fake is penalized
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  #385  
Old 02-14-17, 08:56 PM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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I am confused by in the act of shooting. How is it by rule determined?
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  #386  
Old 02-15-17, 11:26 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
I am confused by in the act of shooting. How is it by rule determined?

By rule....

- A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

- The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

- The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.


Now, we start with the rule above during the teaching process. We then rely on instinct and experience to properly apply the rule.

Please note, nowhere will you see in the rule book the requirement for the player to be "off the floor" when attempting a try. Anytime you see an official verbally announce "on the floor", you've just seen an official that has bad AAU habits. ( foul shots consume time......time is bad when working AAU )
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  #387  
Old 02-16-17, 09:14 AM
blue60 blue60 is offline
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Could some one explain why a player can block a shot then land on top of the shooter and not be called for a foul. Have seen it called both ways. But more and more it seems that the ref's are just saying it was a block and ignoring to foul after the block.
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  #388  
Old 02-16-17, 09:18 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by blue60 View Post
Could some one explain why a player can block a shot then land on top of the shooter and not be called for a foul. Have seen it called both ways. But more and more it seems that the ref's are just saying it was a block and ignoring to foul after the block.
To have a personal foul there must be contact. However all contact is not a personal foul.

The same applies here.

This is purely a judgment call by the officials.
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  #389  
Old 02-16-17, 02:33 PM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
By rule....

- A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

- The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

- The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Now, we start with the rule above during the teaching process. We then rely on instinct and experience to properly apply the rule.

Please note, nowhere will you see in the rule book the requirement for the player to be "off the floor" when attempting a try. Anytime you see an official verbally announce "on the floor", you've just seen an official that has bad AAU habits. ( foul shots consume time......time is bad when working AAU )
Sounds like a pure tough judgement call. I saw some situations this weekend where its almost like a charge/block call, where one could argue that it was a block and the other side could argue it was a charge both rather successfully. It seems equally difficult as natural shooting motion is different for each player and shot type. Was he/she going in for a scoop layup and never brought the ball above the waist!

I do wish there was something in the rule that required a player to cleary show a shot attempt, which like you said you be hard for a hard foul or other. Just another situation where its a hard call.
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  #390  
Old 02-16-17, 07:16 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
Sounds like a pure tough judgement call. I saw some situations this weekend where its almost like a charge/block call, where one could argue that it was a block and the other side could argue it was a charge both rather successfully. It seems equally difficult as natural shooting motion is different for each player and shot type. Was he/she going in for a scoop layup and never brought the ball above the waist!

I do wish there was something in the rule that required a player to cleary show a shot attempt, which like you said you be hard for a hard foul or other. Just another situation where its a hard call.
Really, it's not that tough a decision to make. Using the rule as a guide and good basketball sense, this decisions is quite easy.

The problem arises when, as I noted prior, they announce "on the floor".....as there is absolutely no requirement for a player to be airborne to attempt a try.
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