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  #361  
Old 02-13-17, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Small enough for him to kick the Jews off the island and chase them on a Crusade.

Eratosthenes didn't need to guess in 200 BC.
I chose King Edward because I recently saw Braveheart! My point was that even though he was a king he had no idea that Australia, North America & South America even existed.

We are sending probes to the farthest reaches of the Solar System where they take measurements and send us back dazzling pictures. Intellectually, the Solar System is smaller to us than the world was to King Edward. Now that doesn't change the absolute physical dimensions which have the Solar System much larger but with the exponential rate of human advancement we will have people living on the moons of Jupiter, on the Moon, on Mars and among the asteroids sooner than the time between King Edwards reign in 1300 and when humans began their 2nd wide spread invasion of the Western Hemisphere in the 1500's.
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  #362  
Old 02-13-17, 12:53 PM
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I chose King Edward because I recently saw Braveheart! My point was that even though he was a king he had no idea that Australia, North America & South America even existed.
Braveheart was from NY via Australia, or the other way around.

I Imagine there were a whole bunch of kings, queens and others that didn't know there was an Australia, NA or SA. Or maybe they all knew, and didn't want to go on record.
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  #363  
Old 02-13-17, 07:05 PM
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That was very cool and yes it illustrates nicely just how big the solar system is. But I would suggest that the world looked even bigger to King Edward the first in 1300 then the Solar System does to a Yappster in 2017!
And yet it doesn't even do that. Not even close. That graphic takes us only about 1/3500th of the way to the end of our Solar System, stopping with Pluto at about 5.3 billion kilometers. That's about 35 Astronomical Units (AU). (One AU = approx. 150 million kilometers.) Not even close to the furthest reach of our Solar System. Scientists put the Solar System's furthest boundary out to about 125,000 (not a typo) AU's or approx. 2 light years...beyond that, the Sun's gravity no longer dominates other stars' gravity and we've finally made it to interstellar space! Onward to Alpha Centauri!

Billions and even trillions of unknown comets, dwarf planets, minor planets, planets, planetoids, centaurs, trans-Neptune objects, moons, satellites, asteroids, etc. are likely out there, waiting for us to discover. And that's just one star system...the one we "know". It's almost impossible to grasp the size of the Solar System, let alone the Milky Way galaxy and finally the universe.
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  #364  
Old 02-13-17, 07:48 PM
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Here's the first step in growing crops on Mars!

https://qz.com/909040/algae-and-cyan...space-station/

An algae that spent 450 days in space at the International Space Station was returned to earth and it's still alive!
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  #365  
Old 02-13-17, 07:51 PM
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And yet it doesn't even do that. Not even close. That graphic takes us only about 1/3500th of the way to the end of our Solar System, stopping with Pluto at about 5.3 billion kilometers. That's about 35 Astronomical Units (AU). (One AU = approx. 150 million kilometers.) Not even close to the furthest reach of our Solar System. Scientists put the Solar System's furthest boundary out to about 125,000 (not a typo) AU's or approx. 2 light years...beyond that, the Sun's gravity no longer dominates other stars' gravity and we've finally made it to interstellar space! Onward to Alpha Centauri!

Billions and even trillions of unknown comets, dwarf planets, minor planets, planets, planetoids, centaurs, trans-Neptune objects, moons, satellites, asteroids, etc. are likely out there, waiting for us to discover. And that's just one star system...the one we "know". It's almost impossible to grasp the size of the Solar System, let alone the Milky Way galaxy and finally the universe.
The Oort cloud that encases the solar system and can be found at the very edge of the system will be an interesting place to explore that's for sure. But as big as the Solar system is we know it better then the Romans knew the earth.
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  #366  
Old 02-13-17, 07:53 PM
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Braveheart was from NY via Australia, or the other way around.

I Imagine there were a whole bunch of kings, queens and others that didn't know there was an Australia, NA or SA. Or maybe they all knew, and didn't want to go on record.
My point was simply that only a 1,000 years ago the most powerful people of their time knew less about the earth then we know about the solar system. Big as the solar system is the human race is destined to explore it, extract resources from it and colonize it.
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  #367  
Old 02-14-17, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
My point was simply that only a 1,000 years ago the most powerful people of their time knew less about the earth then we know about the solar system. Big as the solar system is the human race is destined to explore it, extract resources from it and colonize it.


Could have come a whole lot closer with your arrow to make that point, silly as it is. But also, immaterial. If that thought excites you, ok.
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  #368  
Old 02-14-17, 08:13 AM
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Could have come a whole lot closer with your arrow to make that point, silly as it is. But also, immaterial. If that thought excites you, ok.
After reading this response and not quite understanding what the hell you're saying I was reminded of this interesting article on the problems we would face in trying to COMMUNICATE with extraterrestrial beings:

https://www.sapiens.org/blog/wandere...form=hootsuite

This sums up the challenge:

We might think we could adopt a neutral, peaceful position from which to approach extraterrestrial guests, a beginning posture that communicates only our willingness to listen. But even when we are sitting still, just breathing, without deliberate expression—in our most supposedly inoffensive states—we are communicating our mammalian sensibilities. We can’t help shining our glossy, wet eyes at our visitors and exhaling gasses in their direction. Our skin changes color, we sweat and emit chemicals, our digestive system grumbles. We point our faces toward our guests as we stare, with our orifices and moist, blinky movements, like an arsenal of biological weapons. Teeth, eyelashes, breath, nostrils, tears, sniffles, earholes—these features could be beautiful, hilarious, offensive, or threatening to our extraterrestrial visitors.


As always get connected to cool articles like this at Instapundit:

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/
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  #369  
Old 02-14-17, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
After reading this response and not quite understanding what the hell you're saying I was reminded of this interesting article on the problems we would face in trying to COMMUNICATE with extraterrestrial beings:

https://www.sapiens.org/blog/wandere...form=hootsuite
It's generally deciphered that we'd approach the communication initially with math. You're having a math problem in understanding why your comparing a 1000 AD king's knowledge of the world to present knowledge of the Solar System, doesn't add up.

If your King Ed had pretty good incite into his pinky toe, then his knowledge of that would MAYBE be enough to compare with our knowledge of something the size of the solar system.
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  #370  
Old 02-14-17, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
It's generally deciphered that we'd approach the communication initially with math. You're having a math problem in understanding why your comparing a 1000 AD king's knowledge of the world to present knowledge of the Solar System, doesn't add up.

If your King Ed had pretty good incite into his pinky toe, then his knowledge of that would MAYBE be enough to compare with our knowledge of something the size of the solar system.
Human beings achieve great things when they are able to envision what it is they want to achieve. A king from Medieval Europe couldn't even dream of settling North America, South America, & Australia because they couldn't envision their existence.

Looking out over the vast volume of space that is the solar system, human beings have a pretty good idea what it contains, at least from the Sun to the outermost gas giants. This enables the human race to envision the exploration & settlement of the solar system in a way that a medieval king could not envision the conquest of the Americas.

And like I said, once we can envision something we have a pretty good track record of making it happen.
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  #371  
Old 02-14-17, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Human beings achieve great things when they are able to envision what it is they want to achieve. A king from Medieval Europe couldn't even dream of settling North America, South America, & Australia because they couldn't envision their existence.

.



I think I found Hometeam!
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  #372  
Old 02-14-17, 07:34 PM
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After reading this response and not quite understanding what the hell you're saying I was reminded of this interesting article on the problems we would face in trying to COMMUNICATE with extraterrestrial beings:

https://www.sapiens.org/blog/wandere...form=hootsuite

This sums up the challenge:

We might think we could adopt a neutral, peaceful position from which to approach extraterrestrial guests, a beginning posture that communicates only our willingness to listen. But even when we are sitting still, just breathing, without deliberate expression—in our most supposedly inoffensive states—we are communicating our mammalian sensibilities. We can’t help shining our glossy, wet eyes at our visitors and exhaling gasses in their direction. Our skin changes color, we sweat and emit chemicals, our digestive system grumbles. We point our faces toward our guests as we stare, with our orifices and moist, blinky movements, like an arsenal of biological weapons. Teeth, eyelashes, breath, nostrils, tears, sniffles, earholes—these features could be beautiful, hilarious, offensive, or threatening to our extraterrestrial visitors.


As always get connected to cool articles like this at Instapundit:

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/
Interesting article.

Hollywood always oversimplifies what communicating with extraterrestrials might be like. It might actually be extremely difficult...like us trying to communicate with ants...or even a more intelligent species like dolphins. Can we decipher ET's language if we can't even decipher dolphins language? What if extraterrestrials communicate at an exponentially faster rate than us? We would be clueless. IMO, it would be mostly up to the extraterrestrials to figure out how to communicate with us, not vice versa. Communicating is going to be a huge obstacle, if we ever meet.

Eastisbest mentions math. That's what scientists are hoping will be the truly "universal" language. The famous (infamous?) Arecibo message in 1974 included sending the Fibonacci sequence via radio waves (in binary format) towards a huge cluster of stars, hoping to attract aliens. Is there anybody home? Pretty scary stuff, since we have no idea what the intentions of a technologically advanced alien species would be. Maybe it would be "to serve man".
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  #373  
Old 02-14-17, 09:12 PM
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Interesting article.

Hollywood always oversimplifies what communicating with extraterrestrials might be like. It might actually be extremely difficult...like us trying to communicate with ants...or even a more intelligent species like dolphins. Can we decipher ET's language if we can't even decipher dolphins language? What if extraterrestrials communicate at an exponentially faster rate than us? We would be clueless. IMO, it would be mostly up to the extraterrestrials to figure out how to communicate with us, not vice versa. Communicating is going to be a huge obstacle, if we ever meet.

Eastisbest mentions math. That's what scientists are hoping will be the truly "universal" language. The famous (infamous?) Arecibo message in 1974 included sending the Fibonacci sequence via radio waves (in binary format) towards a huge cluster of stars, hoping to attract aliens. Is there anybody home? Pretty scary stuff, since we have no idea what the intentions of a technologically advanced alien species would be. Maybe it would be "to serve man".
I think the argument cuts both ways. Sure communication may be enormously difficult but on the other hand depending on the degree (if any) to which higher order intelligence is similar communication might turn out to be straight forward.

Consider the likely similarities between two space faring civilizations should they meet up. Math of course would be one but I think there are several even better ones including the common technologies involved in space travel (propulsion, sealed environments, tools, atmosphere locks, etc.); the labeling of cosmic features (suns, planets, moons, black holes, etc.); chemistry; physics; and quantum states.

It might be that only aliens with shared experiences, like interstellar travel, would be able to find enough in common to communicate with each other. But if we travel to another world and discover an intelligent lichen based civilization communication may never be possible - we would be to different.

Or it might turn out that the development of intelligent life is strictly controlled by natural forces and limited in it's diversity. In this case communication between alien civilizations might be easy, or even natural. On the other hand if intelligent life can evolve in an infinite number of ways the enormous diversity may doom any hope for communication.
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  #374  
Old 02-15-17, 09:40 AM
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The UAE (United Arab Emirates) is planning on building a city on Mars by 2117.

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/general...2117-1.1978549

Maybe they're having trouble spending all their petrol dollars? Or maybe they're looking for places with better weather then they have in the UAE?
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  #375  
Old 02-15-17, 09:48 AM
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The UAE (United Arab Emirates) is planning on building a city on Mars by 2117.

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/general...2117-1.1978549

Maybe they're having trouble spending all their petrol dollars? Or maybe they're looking for places with better weather then they have in the UAE?
No Trump ban on Mars?
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  #376  
Old 02-15-17, 10:16 AM
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No Trump ban on Mars?
UAE was never on the Trump ban because they have an effective intelligence service that the USA can work with to battle Islamic terrorism.

As far as Mars goes, if HG Wells is right and the natives subscribe to a brutal expansionist agenda then for sure Trump will ban all incoming Martians to the USA. Heck he may even overextend his authority and ban them from the entire earth:




Notice what happens to the California liberals who welcome the Martian refugees!
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  #377  
Old 02-15-17, 06:49 PM
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I think the argument cuts both ways. Sure communication may be enormously difficult but on the other hand depending on the degree (if any) to which higher order intelligence is similar communication might turn out to be straight forward.

Consider the likely similarities between two space faring civilizations should they meet up. Math of course would be one but I think there are several even better ones including the common technologies involved in space travel (propulsion, sealed environments, tools, atmosphere locks, etc.); the labeling of cosmic features (suns, planets, moons, black holes, etc.); chemistry; physics; and quantum states.

It might be that only aliens with shared experiences, like interstellar travel, would be able to find enough in common to communicate with each other. But if we travel to another world and discover an intelligent lichen based civilization communication may never be possible - we would be to different.

Or it might turn out that the development of intelligent life is strictly controlled by natural forces and limited in it's diversity. In this case communication between alien civilizations might be easy, or even natural. On the other hand if intelligent life can evolve in an infinite number of ways the enormous diversity may doom any hope for communication.
Good questions. Will aliens, their technology and civilizations be very similar to us (as you suggest) or totally different and nearly unrecognizable? By nature, will all intelligent species evolve similar to humans or can they evolve in any and every direction?

I'm in the camp that aliens will be vastly different. I find it unlikely they will be bi-pedal human-like "greys" with a big head, two big eyes, two long skinny arms and long skinny fingers probing humans in their flying saucer. IDK, maybe six arms with tentacles, suction cups and thousands of feelers. Maybe even silicon based instead of carbon based (highly unlikely, but hypothetically possible)...if silicon based, they would be totally different than any life form we've seen on Earth. Maybe they would come from a red dwarf star system...again, if so, they would appear vastly different, as life would evolve much differently under the sunlight of a red dwarf star. And so on. We just don't know.
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  #378  
Old 02-17-17, 01:27 PM
Michael Bluth Michael Bluth is offline
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Dwarf planet between Mars and Jupiter boasts organic compounds

http://in.reuters.com/article/space-ceres-idINKBN15V2LO
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  #379  
Old 02-17-17, 01:58 PM
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Dwarf planet between Mars and Jupiter boasts organic compounds

http://in.reuters.com/article/space-ceres-idINKBN15V2LO
Very cool article MB. We are learning so much so fast about the solar system that it's head spinning. For sure Ceres occupies a very strategic place in the solar system and would be a logical jumping off place for exploring the gas giants.


BTW, Ceres happens to be a critical setting for the TV shoe The Expanse! As an aside, folks who enjoy this thread should check out the Expanse as it does a nice job envisioning how a solar system wide civilization might work. Season 2 is currently underway on the Sci Fi channel and you can binge watch season 1 to catch up on things.
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  #380  
Old 02-17-17, 09:11 PM
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Maktoum and his brother just want to get their stud farm the first rights to breeding on Mars. Shad well and Darley Dubai divisions. Wonder what the breeding program for Mars will be like and if they are eligible for American races
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  #381  
Old 02-19-17, 08:02 PM
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For those of us into this sort of thing today was a big day in space commercialization with the successful launch of a Space X rocket to resupply the ISS:




To make this a special event they launched the rocket off the old Moon shot pad at cape Canaveral.
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  #382  
Old 02-19-17, 08:53 PM
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Just rewatched The Martian. Enjoyed it again, even knowing the ending.

Moral of the story, hold hands when crossing the red sand, bunker up the domicile and bring your own music.
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  #383  
Old 02-22-17, 04:19 PM
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Hearing good things about the TRAPPIST-1 system. Better school systems and weather than Mars.
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  #384  
Old 02-22-17, 04:20 PM
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Was reading about that today ^
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  #385  
Old 02-22-17, 06:21 PM
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Hearing good things about the TRAPPIST-1 system. Better school systems and weather than Mars.
Here's the link to the story:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.d4eacdff6c5f

This is a HUGE discovery and adds more support to the notion that the Galaxy is overrun with planets in the living zone. Read the article but here's a sample:

A newfound solar system just 39 light-years away contains seven warm, rocky planets, scientists say.

The discovery, reported Wednesday in the journal Nature, represents the first time astronomers have detected so many terrestrial planets orbiting a single star. Researchers say the system is an ideal laboratory for studying distant worlds and could be the best place in the galaxy to search for life beyond Earth.

“Before this, if you wanted to study terrestrial planets, we had only four of them and they were all in our solar system,” said lead author Michaël Gillon, an exoplanet researcher at the University of Liege in Belgium. “Now we have seven Earth-sized planets to expand our understanding. Yes, we have the possibility to find water and life. But even if we don't, whatever we find will be super-interesting.”


Play the video embedded in the article , it's verry cool!
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  #386  
Old 02-22-17, 07:50 PM
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Here's the link to the story:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.d4eacdff6c5f

This is a HUGE discovery and adds more support to the notion that the Galaxy is overrun with planets in the living zone. Read the article but here's a sample:

A newfound solar system just 39 light-years away contains seven warm, rocky planets, scientists say.

The discovery, reported Wednesday in the journal Nature, represents the first time astronomers have detected so many terrestrial planets orbiting a single star. Researchers say the system is an ideal laboratory for studying distant worlds and could be the best place in the galaxy to search for life beyond Earth.

“Before this, if you wanted to study terrestrial planets, we had only four of them and they were all in our solar system,” said lead author Michaël Gillon, an exoplanet researcher at the University of Liege in Belgium. “Now we have seven Earth-sized planets to expand our understanding. Yes, we have the possibility to find water and life. But even if we don't, whatever we find will be super-interesting.”


Play the video embedded in the article , it's verry cool!
Some random thoughts on the possibility of life on the planets inside the Goldilocks Zone of the TRAPPIST-1 star:

First, as a relatively young star, TRAPPIST-1, wouldn't have much time for life to arise and evolve (compared to Earth)...maybe some very early simple life-forms, at best.

Second, I would imagine any life on planets orbiting an ultra-cool red dwarf, like TRAPPIST-1, would be much different than life on planets orbiting a yellow main-sequence star like our Sun...the conditions for life would be vastly different, especially the type and amount of sunlight.

Third, the planets are most likely tidally locked with TRAPPIST-1, which would make things interesting (difficult?) for life, too...one hot, bright side and one cold, dark side of the planet.

This discovery just shows that their are zillions of types of stars and planets, with zillions of different conditions, probabilities and possibilities for life. That's why I believe that life on other planets may not look very familiar to us, when we eventually find it (if ever)...we know millions of different species of life-forms, but every one of them was under Earth's specific set of conditions, which maybe no other planet will come close to matching.

Last edited by BlackHawk; 02-22-17 at 08:07 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #387  
Old 02-23-17, 08:28 AM
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Pretty cool. Because of how small this star is, the planets have to be much closer to it in order to be habitable. Gotta be some awesome views

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  #388  
Old 02-23-17, 08:43 AM
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Yup, the views are to die for. I already started my tube in the backyard to zip in and out of TRAPPIST-1; definitely building a winter place there and will probably move in full time after I retire.
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  #389  
Old 02-23-17, 08:48 AM
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Pretty cool. Because of how small this star is, the planets have to be much closer to it in order to be habitable. Gotta be some awesome views

Sunrises & sunsets must be surreal. Oh wait the planets don't rotate so you basically walk into a sunrise or sunset! Man this kind of stuff can blow your mind.

If intelligent life did evolve there I suspect that sun centered religions are the norm, at least on half the planet.
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  #390  
Old 02-23-17, 08:59 AM
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Some random thoughts on the possibility of life on the planets inside the Goldilocks Zone of the TRAPPIST-1 star:

First, as a relatively young star, TRAPPIST-1, wouldn't have much time for life to arise and evolve (compared to Earth)...maybe some very early simple life-forms, at best.

Second, I would imagine any life on planets orbiting an ultra-cool red dwarf, like TRAPPIST-1, would be much different than life on planets orbiting a yellow main-sequence star like our Sun...the conditions for life would be vastly different, especially the type and amount of sunlight.

Third, the planets are most likely tidally locked with TRAPPIST-1, which would make things interesting (difficult?) for life, too...one hot, bright side and one cold, dark side of the planet.

This discovery just shows that their are zillions of types of stars and planets, with zillions of different conditions, probabilities and possibilities for life. That's why I believe that life on other planets may not look very familiar to us, when we eventually find it (if ever)...we know millions of different species of life-forms, but every one of them was under Earth's specific set of conditions, which maybe no other planet will come close to matching.
I distinctly remember that 30 years ago astronomers were arguing about whether planets were common. I recall that a majority thought the conditions for forming planets would be difficult to replicate and that our solar system might be a fluke. Now, your estimate of "zillions" of planets may be be an understatement!

It's funny that now you hear the same argument about the odds of extraterrestrial "life". My guess is that they will be as wrong about the ubiquitous nature of life as they were about the number of planets. It is going to be very interesting to see if "life" follows a basic template around the Galaxy or if its ridiculously diverse. For sure the diversity of environments should lead to diversity of form BUT who knows? And if life is exponentially diverse maybe intelligent life follows a certain narrow template?

One thing for sure though is that these findings are making discussions like this one almost pedestrian.
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