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  #1  
Old 01-05-18, 10:42 AM
4_Corners 4_Corners is offline
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Cutting in 5th Grade.

Looking for different opinions on this.

There is a school in NEO who had 19 girls come out for 5th grade basketball. I thought this was great considering that's as many as the HS has for 9-12. Early in the year they had 2 teams. Team A had 10 players Team B had 9. In a recent Shootout they combined the teams and made 1 team of 19 players with 6 coaches. After the shoot out they sent out a Text to 7 parents stating they were only going to keep 12 for these reasons
1.) They are going to tougher tournaments and want to remain competitive and win.
2.) Even the girls who were avg got equal playing time through out the year, and that's how the judged who would make the team.
3.) Consider it to be like an All-Star summer softball team.
4.) The reason that this school has been so successful is because they don't do it like other teams. They play everyone equally and it's not just about winning.
5.) You can only take 12 to most Tourneys, and having 2 teams would double the cost.

Lastly - Doing this was never mentioned at the beginning of the year or mentioned to the parents. There was never a reasoning to the parents as how the team was decided and all 6 "coaches" daughters made the team. Ironically.

Mind you these are 5th grade girls. I do not have a daughter on the team.
I'm just curious if any other school has ever done this and your opinion? Is this something that should be taken to the Head Coach as it's school affiliated? Or do you just let it go?
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  #2  
Old 01-05-18, 11:07 AM
BobcatQB BobcatQB is offline
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Regular season is for equal play, post season is for winning. I don't consider it to be cutting players, I consider it to be an all-star selection. Did they cut players in the regular season? No, they all played as they should have. Yes, most tourneys only allow up to 12 kids per roster.
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  #3  
Old 01-05-18, 11:28 AM
4_Corners 4_Corners is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobcatQB View Post
Regular season is for equal play, post season is for winning. I don't consider it to be cutting players, I consider it to be an all-star selection. Did they cut players in the regular season? No, they all played as they should have. Yes, most tourneys only allow up to 12 kids per roster.
I get what you're saying. But there is no true "regular season" They just go to multiple tournaments. I'm well aware of the roster restrictions, which makes perfect sense. However half of the year it was ok to have 2 teams, and the other half it wasn't? Especially when each parent pays the same amount to go to these tourneys. I think there is a better solution than to cut 5th graders. If this was a travel organization, I'd understand, but with it being school affiliated, I personally think it looks bad.
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  #4  
Old 01-05-18, 12:53 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4_Corners View Post
Lastly - Doing this was never mentioned at the beginning of the year or mentioned to the parents.
This is the problem.

It also matters how they have done it in the past. If they've always done it, it was just bad communication. If they've never done it, it makes these parent/coaches look bad.
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Old 01-05-18, 01:56 PM
4_Corners 4_Corners is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
This is the problem.

It also matters how they have done it in the past. If they've always done it, it was just bad communication. If they've never done it, it makes these parent/coaches look bad.
First time this has ever happened. If it was communicated that this was going to happen at the start of the year, then I think it would be more understandable. To just do it because you want a better team so you can win, when your stating "its not about winning." All just seems wrong to me and gives the wrong message to the girls.
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  #6  
Old 01-05-18, 03:03 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobcatQB View Post
Regular season is for equal play, post season is for winning.
5th grade Basketball is for teaching.
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  #7  
Old 01-05-18, 03:03 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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My suggestion would be to get the rest of the girls and form a team. I would also target some girls on the other team and let them know they are welcome to join your team. Those players could potentially be starters on your team while they are third stringers on the other team. Remind them that the other team is all about winning.
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  #8  
Old 01-05-18, 03:41 PM
BobcatQB BobcatQB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
5th grade Basketball is for teaching.
Good luck trying to "teach" in a tournament while getting blown out by 50. Can't learn in that environment...coached/officiated in many of those games.
Kids can't get the ball past half court because of their skill level compared to the other team..so what are they learning? That's what rec league/regular season is for. Totally agree youth level is about teaching but most tournaments are competitive..thus the term tournament.

Now, I agree if it wasn't communicated it's an issue. And it sounds like your group is set up differently than what I'm used to..most "tournaments" don't start until January. And to add to what Yappi said, no problem adding a second team to continue to play. Keep those girls in tourneys they have a better chance at competing in so they can continue to learn.
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  #9  
Old 01-05-18, 03:59 PM
4_Corners 4_Corners is offline
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If this was an AAU style situation. I'd have no problem with it. I help run a program, and even then, I feel like the message would be delivered with a reason. These are a bunch of small schools and they all alternate hosting a tournament through out the year.

If they were shootouts, I would be more understand to it, even if I disagree with it, as long as it's communicated first, in writing. (saves a lot of headache later on) But at this age, with that much interest in a school that graduated generally 75 kids per class, having 19 girls who want to play and learn is great.

To my knowledge there are about
4 above average players
10 average players
5 below average players.

2 of the below average players being coaches kids, and they are on the team, for obvious reasons. I don't have a dog in this fight, but was apart of the conversation, and mentioned rotating players who are avg or below avg at different tournaments. You'd most likely lose a couple due to scheduling conflicts, or just not wanting to do it, and the others it still allows them to be apart of the organization. Not perfect, but a way to resolve a lot of explanation.
They also said it was a money issue. However the cost of what they pay goes towards tourneys and jerseys. So each kid paying should mean 1 tourney. I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound like a money issue. Sounds more like a political 6 fathers want to coach their daughters and make sure they get trophies opposed to actually teaching the game.

Fundamentals will always out weigh trophies at this age, and last time I checked, no one remembers who the 5th grade champions were later on in life.
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  #10  
Old 01-05-18, 04:21 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobcatQB View Post
Good luck trying to "teach" in a tournament while getting blown out by 50. Can't learn in that environment...coached/officiated in many of those games.
Kids can't get the ball past half court because of their skill level compared to the other team..so what are they learning? That's what rec league/regular season is for. Totally agree youth level is about teaching but most tournaments are competitive..thus the term tournament.

Now, I agree if it wasn't communicated it's an issue. And it sounds like your group is set up differently than what I'm used to..most "tournaments" don't start until January. And to add to what Yappi said, no problem adding a second team to continue to play. Keep those girls in tourneys they have a better chance at competing in so they can continue to learn.
5th grade kids have no business playing in these tournaments.... in any sport.
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  #11  
Old 01-05-18, 05:59 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
5th grade kids have no business playing in these tournaments.... in any sport.
Unfortunately, rec leagues are almost a thing of the past (for all sports). These "community all-star" teams are replacing what used to be the rec league. Of course, that means those bottom 40% kids are not playing at all.

There is a part of me that believes the death of youth sports is the kids who specialize at an early age are pushing others away from the sport. Good, athletic kids struggle when they play equally athletic kids who have spent 100s of hours playing one sport at an early age. These kids then self-cut because they don't believe they are good enough.
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  #12  
Old 01-08-18, 09:41 AM
smokingbrewmaster smokingbrewmaster is offline
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Stories like this really make the catholic CYO programs shine.

What a complete classless way to notify the parents, using the old email.

So the people who run this program are using the other 7 families money to cut their expenses into tournaments.
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  #13  
Old 01-10-18, 09:09 AM
4_Corners 4_Corners is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokingbrewmaster View Post
Stories like this really make the catholic CYO programs shine.

What a complete classless way to notify the parents, using the old email.

So the people who run this program are using the other 7 families money to cut their expenses into tournaments.
That's what it sounds like. Parents pay. Each kid should = 1 Tourney

19 Tourneys isn't realistic. But when you split it up into 2 teams it works out. I've also heard " You can't have 2 teams from one school" I don't really believe this. Why would you turn down the money? That's money at the door, concession, and entry fee. Plus another team.

My take if you want to put together your best players and see where they stand at that age group. Go AAU where you aren't limited to 2 per team yet. As far as anything school affiliated - You should keep any and all interested as long as possible.
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  #14  
Old 01-10-18, 10:10 AM
BobcatQB BobcatQB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
5th grade kids have no business playing in these tournaments.... in any sport.
haha..ok. Let's give everyone a participation trophy too.
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  #15  
Old 01-10-18, 10:13 AM
BobcatQB BobcatQB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4_Corners View Post
That's what it sounds like. Parents pay. Each kid should = 1 Tourney

19 Tourneys isn't realistic. But when you split it up into 2 teams it works out. I've also heard " You can't have 2 teams from one school" I don't really believe this. Why would you turn down the money? That's money at the door, concession, and entry fee. Plus another team.

My take if you want to put together your best players and see where they stand at that age group. Go AAU where you aren't limited to 2 per team yet. As far as anything school affiliated - You should keep any and all interested as long as possible.
4_Corners, I run several youth tournaments and have always allowed multiple teams from the same school..again, why wouldn't you? We want all kids to be able to play and it's great that there is enough interest to have multiple teams from the same school! I haven't heard of any tournament in my 10+ years of coaching and running tourneys that wouldn't allow multiple teams from the same school..maybe it's the region in which you live, they may do it differently.
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  #16  
Old 01-10-18, 11:51 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobcatQB View Post
haha..ok. Let's give everyone a participation trophy too.
Huh?

How about we just teach all the kids the fundamentals of the game? When they are old enough to know if they really want to play the game, then let them earn that trophy.

Tournaments at this age do nothing but add to the rate of burnout.
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  #17  
Old 01-10-18, 01:02 PM
BobcatQB BobcatQB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Huh?

How about we just teach all the kids the fundamentals of the game? When they are old enough to know if they really want to play the game, then let them earn that trophy.

Tournaments at this age do nothing but add to the rate of burnout.
No, tournaments at this age better prepare the athletes for competition. So a 5th Grader isn't old enough to decide if he/she wants to play a sport? Again, rec league/regular season is for everyone to learn fundamentals and improve. Tourney play is for putting those fundamentals to action to see if you can compete. Burnout..really. You think these kids are practicing 7 days a week and playing tournaments year round all over the country? None of these kids are anywhere near the point of burnout..come on. I'm 46 years old and been coaching/organizing/officiating youth sports for over 20 years and I have yet to meet a player that suffers from "burnout".

I think you have a misinformed understanding of what these "tournaments" really are.
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  #18  
Old 01-10-18, 01:34 PM
4_Corners 4_Corners is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobcatQB View Post
4_Corners, I run several youth tournaments and have always allowed multiple teams from the same school..again, why wouldn't you? We want all kids to be able to play and it's great that there is enough interest to have multiple teams from the same school! I haven't heard of any tournament in my 10+ years of coaching and running tourneys that wouldn't allow multiple teams from the same school..maybe it's the region in which you live, they may do it differently.
I'm right there with you. The more.. The better. It's not the region, it's not even the school. This is more of a parent issue. Six fathers coach the team, sadly, if you watch them during games, its more about them, and winning through their kids than it is about what's being taught.
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Old 01-10-18, 02:44 PM
BobcatQB BobcatQB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4_Corners View Post
I'm right there with you. The more.. The better. It's not the region, it's not even the school. This is more of a parent issue. Six fathers coach the team, sadly, if you watch them during games, its more about them, and winning through their kids than it is about what's being taught.
That's too bad. If kids want to learn and play they should be able to do so. No reason the team couldn't be separated into two teams so everyone can continue to play. I know things like this happen all the time but someone has to be held accountable.
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  #20  
Old 01-10-18, 07:00 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobcatQB View Post
No, tournaments at this age better prepare the athletes for competition. So a 5th Grader isn't old enough to decide if he/she wants to play a sport? Again, rec league/regular season is for everyone to learn fundamentals and improve. Tourney play is for putting those fundamentals to action to see if you can compete. Burnout..really. You think these kids are practicing 7 days a week and playing tournaments year round all over the country? None of these kids are anywhere near the point of burnout..come on. I'm 46 years old and been coaching/organizing/officiating youth sports for over 20 years and I have yet to meet a player that suffers from "burnout".

I think you have a misinformed understanding of what these "tournaments" really are.
Worked these tournaments for 25 years...... It's all about the adults.

The burnout rate isn't a made up fact or an opinion on my part that is without basis. The statistics are easy to find if one really wants to be educated on the subject.

As far as all these tournaments having a positive effect on the game. Take a look at the results of this practice....... It's not good.
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  #21  
Old 01-11-18, 08:41 AM
BobcatQB BobcatQB is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Worked these tournaments for 25 years...... It's all about the adults.

The burnout rate isn't a made up fact or an opinion on my part that is without basis. The statistics are easy to find if one really wants to be educated on the subject.

As far as all these tournaments having a positive effect on the game. Take a look at the results of this practice....... It's not good.
While I'm sure there are cases where this is true, in my experience, the term burnout has only been used when players can't compete anymore with their peers. This is also usually followed by how bad the coaches were and how they didn't like the player and wouldn't give him/her a fair shot. Done on the subject.

4-corners, keep the girls playing!
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  #22  
Old 01-11-18, 09:05 AM
thedudeabides thedudeabides is offline
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Maybe the easy solution going forward is to limit roster to 12. If there is more interest than that to the point of filling another squad then move to do that, otherwise has tryouts, and cuts at the beginning of the season. With the lack of communication it seems to me like this was a mid-season decision that wasn't very well thought out. Lacked a "big picture" approach.
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  #23  
Old 01-11-18, 11:07 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by BobcatQB View Post
While I'm sure there are cases where this is true, in my experience, the term burnout has only been used when players can't compete anymore with their peers. This is also usually followed by how bad the coaches were and how they didn't like the player and wouldn't give him/her a fair shot. Done on the subject.

4-corners, keep the girls playing!
That's the response from the "my kid's gonna get a full schollarship" crowd.

The statistics are irrefutable. 70% of the kids quit before they get to age 14. And the reason isn't "the coach didn't like me" (that's a parent excuse).

Do the research.... educate yourself on the subject...... pay attention to the injury rates, the depression rates, and all the consequences that go with it......


9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 year old kids shouldn't be playing a single sport, and 40 games a year (or more) in that sport.
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