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  #1  
Old 05-10-19, 08:47 AM
sprtsfan247 sprtsfan247 is offline
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Idea to keep good coaches coaching

A common theme that I have seen growing in the recent years are good coaches stepping down for various reasons, but one of the most common is that it takes too much time. In a recent post about a young Indiana coach resigning I noticed that he said he worked 60-70 hours a week.

My suggestion would be this -->
Why not put a time restriction on the amount of time a coach can spend with his players?

In the NCAA I believe coaches get 20 hours per week to spend with their student-athletes. Give HS coaches the same amount of time to spend with their athletes.

Why is this beneficial:

-More time for coaches to spend with their families
-In all honesty, it will probably increase the number of kids who want to play
-Makes high school coaching more "worth it". I have heard several instances where coaches take the amount of time they put in and divide it by what they make and it comes out to a dollar or less per hour. By putting a time restriction on them it makes it a little bit more worth it.
-It takes away any conflict of kids playing AAU or practicing with AAU and doing something with their HS team.
-It puts everyone on an even playing field (in theory)

Now, a few drawbacks. This is an idea. I don't know exactly how you would implement this. Maybe have a time log turned into the AD then have the AD turn it into the OHSAA somehow. I don't exactly know. I thought I would float this idea and see other peoples ideas.

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 05-10-19, 09:03 AM
Kurt Rambis Kurt Rambis is offline
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I think those are great things...but it comes down to the fact its hard to enforce and diehard coaches who have no problem with spending that time will avoid the rules
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  #3  
Old 05-10-19, 09:14 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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I think it is a great idea.

Implementation? No worries, one disgruntled parent, and there is always at least one, will snitch if a coach broke the rule.
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Old 05-10-19, 10:12 AM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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agreed. i've said it once and i'll say it again, a coaches biggest enemy is not the parent of the opposition but the parent of their own athletes.
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  #5  
Old 05-10-19, 10:16 AM
sprtsfan247 sprtsfan247 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
I think it is a great idea.

Implementation? No worries, one disgruntled parent, and there is always at least one, will snitch if a coach broke the rule.
I think self-regulation would be important. I think if something like this were to ever come to fruition I believe there would have to be a predetermined penalty in place. Make sure coaches know exactly what happens if they break the rule. I hope coaches would indeed "snitch" on one another. One of the aspects of this would be to make the playing field even. If I am coach "A" and I am following the rules and I know coach "B" is putting in twice the number of hours I will let the proper people know. Something else I like about this is that could apply to everyone. If you are a member of the OHSAA you get 20 hours per week to work with your players. Public, Private, doesn't matter. It is clear cut, specific, and easy to understand.

Again, the implementation may not be so easy. But every idea has to have a starting point.
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  #6  
Old 05-10-19, 12:05 PM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Good points^
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  #7  
Old 05-10-19, 12:20 PM
Smalls Smalls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprtsfan247 View Post
I think self-regulation would be important. I think if something like this were to ever come to fruition I believe there would have to be a predetermined penalty in place. Make sure coaches know exactly what happens if they break the rule. I hope coaches would indeed "snitch" on one another. One of the aspects of this would be to make the playing field even. If I am coach "A" and I am following the rules and I know coach "B" is putting in twice the number of hours I will let the proper people know. Something else I like about this is that could apply to everyone. If you are a member of the OHSAA you get 20 hours per week to work with your players. Public, Private, doesn't matter. It is clear cut, specific, and easy to understand.

Again, the implementation may not be so easy. But every idea has to have a starting point.
I like this. Why not make the ADs accountable to enforce the rules in their building. When I was in high school the AD was also a history teacher for 1/2 the day.

Now I can only imagine what a typical day in the life for an AD would look like once schedules are set. Cards anyone? Learn Origami? Post on Yappi?
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Old 05-10-19, 02:05 PM
FFMbuck FFMbuck is offline
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The time that a coach spends in practice with players is a small fraction of a coach's time, so regulating the amount of practice time wouldn't help much.
It's practice preparation, scouting, watching film, preparing scouters, travel time, coaching clinics, certification classes, etc. that keeps a coach away from his family the most.
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Old 05-10-19, 02:20 PM
Looseball Looseball is offline
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Pay them, trust them, insulate them from parents, leave them alone.
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  #10  
Old 05-10-19, 08:20 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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PLacing limits on them with kids, yeah that is good but doubtul it would change that coaches hours.

To me it sounds like he is not utilizing his time wisely.

Unfortunately, the solution isnt an easy one. It is a societal issue in regards to the lack of respect for authority figures by parents and players.
Back in the day, parents, coaches, teachers, law enforcement officials were looked up to and respected. Their word was gold and abided by.

Years ago a kid comes home to complain about their coach, or teacher and the parent would tell the kid he needed to listen to the coach and do what he says, and if there was PT issues the parent told the kid to work harder.

Nowadays, a kid comes home and does that and the parent joins in the criticism and tells the kid he is special and the coach/teacher is wrong.

I loved coaching even though it meant no summer vacations, taking time off work and using vacation days, being gone from 7am until 10pm some nights FOR NO PAY.

The only thing that ruined a season is when a parent was being a J/O and confronting us while out in public and leaving nasty cals.
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  #11  
Old 05-10-19, 08:47 PM
tndog tndog is offline
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Allow multi-year contracts at school's discretion
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  #12  
Old 05-11-19, 12:09 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is online now
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Society in general has started to question authority everywhere, mainly because authority continues to let people down. No different here.

Coaches need bigger support systems. Leaders have to lead. ADs cannot play the political game with parents. They have to hire coaches who share their philosophy so they can back them in political and goofy situations.

Parents must be advocates for the programs their kids play in. The only way to do that is to get them involved. Most parents of athletes were athletes themselves, or have a deeper interest in sports. Lean on some of those dads/moms to help with off-season drills, setting up and monitoring open gyms where coaches can't be involved, making sure the kids are accountable to training programs. You're not asking them to coach, but to be an advocate for the program's success.
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Old 05-11-19, 10:46 PM
SMARTY22 SMARTY22 is offline
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So you want to “limit” the Coach who also teaches Math half a day at the local high school time with his students/players throughout the week? Some of the teenagers these days need as much time in a structured environment that they can find!
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Old 05-12-19, 12:15 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smalls View Post
Now I can only imagine what a typical day in the life for an AD would look like once schedules are set. Cards anyone? Learn Origami? Post on Yappi?
Your post shows that you CAN'T imagine what an AD does. You have no idea.
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  #15  
Old 05-13-19, 12:15 PM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smalls View Post
I like this. Why not make the ADs accountable to enforce the rules in their building. When I was in high school the AD was also a history teacher for 1/2 the day.

Now I can only imagine what a typical day in the life for an AD would look like once schedules are set. Cards anyone? Learn Origami? Post on Yappi?
Some ADs at smaller schools do some teaching and are still on supplemental contracts. Scheduling isn't even the biggest duty an AD has since many schools' coaches have some input regarding their teams' schedules. Unless he or she has an assistant to lighten the load, an AD's biggest duty is to attend athletic events for as many as 6 nights a week throughout the entire school year. That can get old rather fast, especially if you're an AD with young children.
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Old 05-13-19, 02:12 PM
sprtsfan247 sprtsfan247 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMARTY22 View Post
So you want to “limit” the Coach who also teaches Math half a day at the local high school time with his students/players throughout the week? Some of the teenagers these days need as much time in a structured environment that they can find!
Coaches who have half days or coaches who have non-teaching jobs in a school are getting less and less. School districts are trying to get "more bang for their buck" therefore the coaches who teach are usually going to teach a full schedule. Which means that they have to do lesson plans, grades, prep and other duties that teachers have.

While I understand what you are saying, I believe taxpayers are going to ask a lot of questions about why the school district is paying a part-time teacher a full salary just because they coach. No doubt that some coaches have those "easy" jobs. But they are getting fewer and fewer. As a result, you have a teacher who has to put in all the time that a full-time teacher puts in, and then run a program with the pressure to be successful.

Because of that reality, you are losing good coaches. Which leads me to make that suggestion to keep good coaches coaching.
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Old 05-13-19, 06:09 PM
ringer2 ringer2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
Your post shows that you CAN'T imagine what an AD does. You have no idea.
Exactly. ADs may be the most overworked employees in a school district. No joke.
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Old 05-13-19, 11:25 PM
1 time 1 time is offline
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Finances at most schools now require most coaches to teach a full day, then coach. Good old days are done as far as teaching a half day and coaching a full day. It gets harder and harder for many different reasons, but it is what it is If you want to coach a long time and many won’t do it now for more then 10 years or so.
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Old 05-13-19, 11:52 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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I would limit the "in season time" and expand the out of season and make it easier for other to help with things that do not have contact with the players. Pay the coaches for running a program and not just for the season. Also limit the number of coaches. This is by the far the biggest difference between publics and privates. It is the amount of money a private spends on the number of coaches and quality of coaches. Players are developed in the off season.
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Old 05-14-19, 07:11 AM
StSebastian StSebastian is online now
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While the idea is great in concept, the real problem lies in the unnecessary pressure put on coaches to do EVERYTHING 365 days a year. Specialization in a particular sport and the slowly dying multi-sport athlete is the real culprit. Because of this societal and cultural trend for athletes to play a sport year around, the onus (pressure to avoid "falling behind") then falls back on the head coach of the program to cater to "developing them in the off-season." The implementation of more strict off-season or no contact periods over the last 15 years is an indication of a developing and growing problem.

In the not so distant past, athletes owned that responsibility to get better on their own while playing other sports. The multi-sport paradigm has shifted and in turn, the amount of time a coach spends on his program and ultimately away from more important aspects of his/her life has caused longevity of coaches to drop. VERY rare to see a coach still going strong for more than 10 years unless he/she unmarried with no kids of their own... There are exceptions everywhere I am sure but I suspect there is a correlation between the decline of multi-sport athletes and overworked coaches.

Limiting and standardizing a specific "in-season" contact rule is a start but I would take it one step further. It is extreme but if you really want to shift the culture, do away with "off-season" all together. Outside of the regular season and a few weeks in the summer... no contact at all. Coaches can provide program workouts the athletes can do on their own and leave it up to them. I'd bet nuts to nickles multi-sport participation would rise again and solve a litany of problems for everyone involved (overuse injuries, burnout, longevity of coaches, low program numbers in less popular sports, etc.)
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Old 05-14-19, 08:05 AM
Smalls Smalls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
Your post shows that you CAN'T imagine what an AD does. You have no idea.
Maybe this is an anomaly then, but I know an AD at a large suburban school in Michigan. He told me that about 25% of his days are full days that require a similar amount of time and effort as he put in when he was a math/science teacher.

The "25%" days included scheduling, interviewing, employee reviews, getting contracts signed, organizing/attending fundraisers, grade checks, Fall/Winter/Spring sports meetings etc. Pretty much the paperwork part of the job (with the help of an Assistant AD and an Admin. Assistant).

The other "75%" of his days he can come in at noon, because he is staying late to observe coaches/watch games and provide a little bit of help with field/court setup depending on the sport. He said he is pretty much a super fan, but not attending any more games than when his 3 kids were each participating in multiple sports in high school.
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Old 05-14-19, 08:20 AM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smalls View Post
Maybe this is an anomaly then, but I know an AD at a large suburban school in Michigan. He told me that about 25% of his days are full days that require a similar amount of time and effort as he put in when he was a math/science teacher.

The "25%" days included scheduling, interviewing, employee reviews, getting contracts signed, organizing/attending fundraisers, grade checks, Fall/Winter/Spring sports meetings etc. Pretty much the paperwork part of the job (with the help of an Assistant AD and an Admin. Assistant).

The other "75%" of his days he can come in at noon, because he is staying late to observe coaches/watch games and provide a little bit of help with field/court setup depending on the sport. He said he is pretty much a super fan, but not attending any more games than when his 3 kids were each participating in multiple sports in high school.
That kind of seems like alot. I can't imagine scheduling to be an easy task. Not to mention banquets, parent meetings, parent complaints, etc. These guys/gals certainly put their time in.
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Old 05-14-19, 08:27 AM
sprtsfan247 sprtsfan247 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StSebastian View Post
While the idea is great in concept, the real problem lies in the unnecessary pressure put on coaches to do EVERYTHING 365 days a year. Specialization in a particular sport and the slowly dying multi-sport athlete is the real culprit. Because of this societal and cultural trend for athletes to play a sport year around, the onus (pressure to avoid "falling behind") then falls back on the head coach of the program to cater to "developing them in the off-season." The implementation of more strict off-season or no contact periods over the last 15 years is an indication of a developing and growing problem.

In the not so distant past, athletes owned that responsibility to get better on their own while playing other sports. The multi-sport paradigm has shifted and in turn, the amount of time a coach spends on his program and ultimately away from more important aspects of his/her life has caused longevity of coaches to drop. VERY rare to see a coach still going strong for more than 10 years unless he/she unmarried with no kids of their own... There are exceptions everywhere I am sure but I suspect there is a correlation between the decline of multi-sport athletes and overworked coaches.

Limiting and standardizing a specific "in-season" contact rule is a start but I would take it one step further. It is extreme but if you really want to shift the culture, do away with "off-season" all together. Outside of the regular season and a few weeks in the summer... no contact at all. Coaches can provide program workouts the athletes can do on their own and leave it up to them. I'd bet nuts to nickles multi-sport participation would rise again and solve a litany of problems for everyone involved (overuse injuries, burnout, longevity of coaches, low program numbers in less popular sports, etc.)
What a great post!! I could not agree more! Also, what a great idea about the no off season. I am sure that coaches may be more willing to put in the time during the season if they can have a break in the "off-season".
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Old 05-14-19, 08:46 AM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is online now
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I agree and disagree with the past above all at the same time. On one end, I think your points are solid about the relationship between coaching time and fall of multi-sport athletes.

However, the coach can create a culture of accountability with providing the framework for the off-season without having to do it themselves. Things like the creation of a skills plan, a training plan, and resources (the gym) to get it done. Then it's up to the kid to get it done. If your culture is high on accountability and consistently improving, these things are in place, and don't take a ton of time from the coach. This is where the great coaches separate themselves from the ok coaches.

If the kids don't improve, they shouldn't be handed roster spots.
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Old 05-14-19, 09:02 AM
Smalls Smalls is offline
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Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
That kind of seems like alot. I can't imagine scheduling to be an easy task. Not to mention banquets, parent meetings, parent complaints, etc. These guys/gals certainly put their time in.
Agree, but his point was that 25% of his days as an AD required equal time and effort for a "typical" day of teaching. The other 75% of his days required very little beyond observing games and a little bit of set up.

Then again he was always a very high achieving perfectionist, so I am positive that he runs a very tight, organized ship.

Most management/administration/coaching issues can be tracked to poor organization, expectations or communication.
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Old 05-14-19, 09:09 AM
StSebastian StSebastian is online now
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Originally Posted by sprtsfan247 View Post
What a great post!! I could not agree more! Also, what a great idea about the no off season. I am sure that coaches may be more willing to put in the time during the season if they can have a break in the "off-season".
There is certainly more work to be done in the off-season for a coach in preparation for the upcoming season and their own professional development but it isn't perceivably "forced." Just like teaching. Summer is a "break" from teaching but teachers still work to a level they need to prepare for the upcoming year so that when the year starts they are ready to hit the ground running. Coaches can put in the amount of time they need to as opposed to feeling pressured to put in the time they perceive they HAVE to in order to keep up with the joneses.

Last edited by StSebastian; 05-14-19 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 05-14-19, 09:11 AM
StSebastian StSebastian is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
I agree and disagree with the past above all at the same time. On one end, I think your points are solid about the relationship between coaching time and fall of multi-sport athletes.

However, the coach can create a culture of accountability with providing the framework for the off-season without having to do it themselves. Things like the creation of a skills plan, a training plan, and resources (the gym) to get it done. Then it's up to the kid to get it done. If your culture is high on accountability and consistently improving, these things are in place, and don't take a ton of time from the coach. This is where the great coaches separate themselves from the ok coaches.

If the kids don't improve, they shouldn't be handed roster spots.
I agree with this 100%. Set it up and then put the responsibility on the kid to work. I think that was what I was trying to say but maybe it got lost in translation. You hit exactly what I was trying to say.

Additionally, creating such an environment would allow the kid to do the work on his/her own time instead of only when it is "open gym" thus allowing them the opportunity to play other sports without feeling like they are missing out.


At the end of the day, for both the coach and the athlete, there is a PERCEPTION of needing to only focus on one sport so that they can become the best [sport] player / coach they can, when in reality, multi-sport participation is a benefit for both the athlete and coach in different ways. Remove the perception and create a different environment and the issue will start to diminish.

Make High School Sports Great Again!
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Old 05-14-19, 09:58 AM
sprtsfan247 sprtsfan247 is offline
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Originally Posted by StSebastian View Post
I agree with this 100%. Set it up and then put the responsibility on the kid to work. I think that was what I was trying to say but maybe it got lost in translation. You hit exactly what I was trying to say.

Additionally, creating such an environment would allow the kid to do the work on his/her own time instead of only when it is "open gym" thus allowing them the opportunity to play other sports without feeling like they are missing out.


At the end of the day, for both the coach and the athlete, there is a PERCEPTION of needing to only focus on one sport so that they can become the best [sport] player / coach they can, when in reality, multi-sport participation is a benefit for both the athlete and coach in different ways. Remove the perception and create a different environment and the issue will start to diminish.

Make High School Sports Great Again!
My question to both of you is this....

IF... a coach was not being successful would their lack of "workouts" or lack of organized team activities (outside of shootouts and scrimmages) be used by parents to complain or more importantly would this be used by administrators to criticize you in their evaluation of a coaches job performance?

I agree 100% with what both of you are saying. I think you have to create a framework for the kids to follow and if they don't follow it, it is on them. It also allows an individual player and their family to craft their schedule and time however it best fits them.

However, if team "A" (who happens to be successful) is doing a lot of organized team activities and you as team "B" are not (and are not quite as successful), will they use this as a way to criticize you, or will they be strong enough to say "the kids are not doing the work"?

While I love this suggestion, I personally think that they would need to have an OHSAA rule in place. If you simply did it as your own framework, I believe you would be giving admins and parents ammo to "oust" a coach for not doing enough.
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Old 05-14-19, 10:18 AM
StSebastian StSebastian is online now
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Originally Posted by sprtsfan247 View Post
My question to both of you is this....

IF... a coach was not being successful would their lack of "workouts" or lack of organized team activities (outside of shootouts and scrimmages) be used by parents to complain or more importantly would this be used by administrators to criticize you in their evaluation of a coaches job performance?

I agree 100% with what both of you are saying. I think you have to create a framework for the kids to follow and if they don't follow it, it is on them. It also allows an individual player and their family to craft their schedule and time however it best fits them.

However, if team "A" (who happens to be successful) is doing a lot of organized team activities and you as team "B" are not (and are not quite as successful), will they use this as a way to criticize you, or will they be strong enough to say "the kids are not doing the work"?

While I love this suggestion, I personally think that they would need to have an OHSAA rule in place. If you simply did it as your own framework, I believe you would be giving admins and parents ammo to "oust" a coach for not doing enough.
I agree, I don't think the framework that is being suggested works without there being a standard set for all. In the current environment, this is exactly why coaches who do this do not last or stick around which is the whole thesis of this thread. How do we get them to stick around, especially the "good ones?"

The underlying question in all of this is what does "good coaching" look like regardless of outcome? And even deeper than that, what standards are we evaluating programs v what standards SHOULD we be evaluating programs? I personally think winning is a very important outcome to strive for but opportunity is different than outcome. Everyone says they want equal opportunity when in reality they mean they want equal outcome. It doesn't work that way, sometimes you have the exact same opportunity and still come up short. Doesn't mean the system is broken. Provide a system that allows equal opportunity and let what happens, happen.

It is playing the long game. If you remove the pressure to "win" in the short term and focus holistically on the overall development of an entire system over time, we will start to see some of the major "problems" go away, and the cream will rise to the top.

Fact of life. Some are just better than others. The pressure to fit a particular mold is the overall issue, not the mold itself. The mold is the symptom, not the disease.

Some will argue we would be taking a step back by limiting (or handcuffing) coaches and athletes but I would argue that the structure will create greater freedom in general and produce a higher level of preparation for the student-athlete transitioning to the real world.

Last edited by StSebastian; 05-14-19 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 05-14-19, 10:51 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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How about the helicopter parents and the expert (in their own minds) fans get the heck out of the way and let the coach do the things they were hired to do.

- Quit emailing them about playing time.
- Quit complaining to the AD, Principal, School Board about your kid's playing time.
- Quit whining incessantly on social medial about alleged preferential treatment for a certain segment of players.
- Quit standing on sidelines screaming profanities at coaches because you don't like an in-game decision that was made.
- Quit bitching.... period. It's a bunch of kids playing a game.

- Do apply for the job. Apparently you have all the answers, so the hiring decision should be a slam dunk.

- Don't complain if you don't.
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