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  #61  
Old 04-02-19, 11:12 AM
speedthatkills speedthatkills is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Most of the time I would agree, it is more difficult. However, having more ability to "recruit" does not lead to more wrestlers.
As an example, two years ago the Brecksville Tournament had 47 or 48 teams.
Take a guess at how many were 14 man squads?
The answer is 4 were complete. This includes a lot of BIG schools.
The same was true at Kenston that year where out of all the teams competing, there were 2 that were full. My point is that just because a school is big does not mean that they will have more wrestlers or better wrestlers. The odds are in their favor but that is not the whole story.
BTW, I would dispute the use of the phrase "choose from". With the exception of a very small number of the premier programs, very few schools can "choose" anything. They have what walks into the room.
Out.
If your coach is taking what "walks in" then you have a coaching problem. Gone are the days when kids want to compete so coaches have to go recruit in the school(all levels) more than ever. Larger schools have a huge advantage via numbers and this is something that smaller schools can not compete with no matter how much fund raising they do. So if the D1 rosters are not full you have a lazy coaching staff as they are not recruiting in school, or fail to see how important getting into MS and youth is to their program. Period plain and simple.
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  #62  
Old 04-02-19, 12:02 PM
bluepride1990 bluepride1990 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedthatkills View Post
If your coach is taking what "walks in" then you have a coaching problem. Gone are the days when kids want to compete so coaches have to go recruit in the school(all levels) more than ever. Larger schools have a huge advantage via numbers and this is something that smaller schools can not compete with no matter how much fund raising they do. So if the D1 rosters are not full you have a lazy coaching staff as they are not recruiting in school, or fail to see how important getting into MS and youth is to their program. Period plain and simple.
Your blanket statement about D1 school not having a full roster does not account for talent levels, injuries, and kids just deciding to no longer wrestle. This happen even when a coach is out working with the middle school and youth program.

Marysville had 50+ wrestlers on the roster and did not take 106 or 285 to SWOCA, Brecksville, or Top Gun. 106 for duals and sectionals was a first year female wrestler who needed experience on the Varsity "B"/JV schedule. 285 for duals and sectionals was a light 220 that was barely making minimum weight and wrestled varsity/varsity "B" at 220 with respectable success. Both those spots were open due to injuries and experience wrestlers that may have been better replacements not coming out. Those are things that a coach does not have control over. I recognize that this is probably the exception and not the norm but pointing out how even a 50 person roster can have "holes" at the ends.
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  #63  
Old 04-02-19, 12:25 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepride1990 View Post
I recognize that this is probably the exception and not the norm but pointing out how even a 50 person roster can have "holes" at the ends.
It's not really the exception it is happening all over. It makes some feel better to act as if those coaches are "lazy", which is kind of crazy if you look at the hours any coach puts in, versus the larger sports related issues that are occurring. Many people would rather puff out their chest that they filled out a roster, even if it is to the detriment of kids being thrown out who aren't ready (not you, you obviously protected yours).

It has been examined over and over, it's not just "lazy" coaches who can't fill full lineups. In fact I'd bet the majority of teams can't field full line ups with kids who really should be wrestling varsity if we are being truthful with ourselves.
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  #64  
Old 04-02-19, 01:10 PM
speedthatkills speedthatkills is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepride1990 View Post
Your blanket statement about D1 school not having a full roster does not account for talent levels, injuries, and kids just deciding to no longer wrestle. This happen even when a coach is out working with the middle school and youth program.

Marysville had 50+ wrestlers on the roster and did not take 106 or 285 to SWOCA, Brecksville, or Top Gun. 106 for duals and sectionals was a first year female wrestler who needed experience on the Varsity "B"/JV schedule. 285 for duals and sectionals was a light 220 that was barely making minimum weight and wrestled varsity/varsity "B" at 220 with respectable success. Both those spots were open due to injuries and experience wrestlers that may have been better replacements not coming out. Those are things that a coach does not have control over. I recognize that this is probably the exception and not the norm but pointing out how even a 50 person roster can have "holes" at the ends.
Perhaps my original comment came off a little too harsh. I am not puffing my chest up by any means.

I can easily accept that outlier events happen(injuries, missed weights, exp level, skin, up and down classes) that a team will have a hole here and there. Those things happen and little can be done to account for that. However a D1 program that consistently only has 9-12 kids wrestling week in and week out and year to year is on the coach. I know first hand how hard some coaches work and what they put into the sport. Not just at my school but many others as well. I also see how hard other coaches and programs do not work. In D1 you have access to so many more kids. Multiply that number across the different levels of wrestlers that could potentially be in your program and you can see how many opportunities are missed by most programs. My school is a middle to upper D2 in terms of numbers. A school in our league(who has a full roster btw) is a small D1. This school still has almost 200 more boys in the OHSAA count than we do. Multiply that across youth and MS and you have over 500 more boys to potentially get on your squad. These number grow significantly at most D1 schools in comparison.

If this isn't on the coach and staff than we can agree to disagree and call it a day. However I can tell you I sit every weekend and listen to coaches and parents complain about not having full lineups and IMO it is typically the staffs that are too lazy or too obtuse to recruit at all levels. Recruiting includes getting and teaching the volunteer coaches/parents.
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  #65  
Old 04-02-19, 01:45 PM
pinem07 pinem07 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Most of the time I would agree, it is more difficult. However, having more ability to "recruit" does not lead to more wrestlers.
As an example, two years ago the Brecksville Tournament had 47 or 48 teams.
Take a guess at how many were 14 man squads?
The answer is 4 were complete. This includes a lot of BIG schools.
The same was true at Kenston that year where out of all the teams competing, there were 2 that were full. My point is that just because a school is big does not mean that they will have more wrestlers or better wrestlers. The odds are in their favor but that is not the whole story.
BTW, I would dispute the use of the phrase "choose from". With the exception of a very small number of the premier programs, very few schools can "choose" anything. They have what walks into the room.
Out.

Many teams don't take full teams to Brecksville because of how tough the tournament is. It is probably a top 10 tournament in the country, or close to it. You don't want to take a freshman who is right around .500 to wrestle in that. It's a waste of points for them. Take them to a jv tournament or smaller varsity tournament where they can have success.
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  #66  
Old 04-02-19, 02:18 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinem07 View Post
Many teams don't take full teams to Brecksville because of how tough the tournament is. It is probably a top 10 tournament in the country, or close to it. You don't want to take a freshman who is right around .500 to wrestle in that. It's a waste of points for them. Take them to a jv tournament or smaller varsity tournament where they can have success.
GMVWA had 48 teams with 3 full lineups based on their entry gird, so it could have been less post weigh ins. 30 teams were missing at least 3 weights for this tournament.
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  #67  
Old 04-02-19, 02:28 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedthatkills View Post
Perhaps my original comment came off a little too harsh. I am not puffing my chest up by any means.



I can easily accept that outlier events happen(injuries, missed weights, exp level, skin, up and down classes) that a team will have a hole here and there. Those things happen and little can be done to account for that. However a D1 program that consistently only has 9-12 kids wrestling week in and week out and year to year is on the coach. I know first hand how hard some coaches work and what they put into the sport. Not just at my school but many others as well. I also see how hard other coaches and programs do not work. In D1 you have access to so many more kids. Multiply that number across the different levels of wrestlers that could potentially be in your program and you can see how many opportunities are missed by most programs. My school is a middle to upper D2 in terms of numbers. A school in our league(who has a full roster btw) is a small D1. This school still has almost 200 more boys in the OHSAA count than we do. Multiply that across youth and MS and you have over 500 more boys to potentially get on your squad. These number grow significantly at most D1 schools in comparison.



If this isn't on the coach and staff than we can agree to disagree and call it a day. However I can tell you I sit every weekend and listen to coaches and parents complain about not having full lineups and IMO it is typically the staffs that are too lazy or too obtuse to recruit at all levels. Recruiting includes getting and teaching the volunteer coaches/parents.
I don't see the problem as relating to laziness, rather ignorance. To be clear on this point - ignorance is a lack of knowledge not an inability to attain knowledge or learn. It would be like asking a teacher that is qualified in history to teach calculus - they typically wouldn't have the prerequisite knowledge to deliver the class.

Remember being a great wrestler doesn't make you a great coach and being a great coach doesn't make you a great recruiter - these are 3 uniquely different skill sets.

The best teams will have a head coach that recognizes his strengths and weaknesses and gets assistant coaches that complement their areas of weakness.

Any team that has a good recruiter on staff will have a full or nearly full lineup. Any team that has a great coach will see success with their athletes. Any team that has a great wrestler on their staff will raise the level of expectations for their team.

However, to have a trully successful program you need to have all 3 of these skill sets and several more on the staff. That is why you see the same programs experiencing success year afrer year and the same programs having the same problems year after year.

It's not rocket science. That is also why you see success following certain coaches and failure following others.

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  #68  
Old 04-02-19, 02:32 PM
2sportcoach 2sportcoach is offline
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buckman,

Sorry I am a little late to the party but how do you think this will effect that 5th sectional in Central Ohio. I've always been told that we bring in the extra sectional for more opportunity of state placers. But with Ashland going down to D2. Also, Mansfield Senior will be 312 and Mansfield Comp. will be 352 both going down to D2. Lima Senior would be the only one out of the group to be at D1 still. Also Chillicothe is borderline as well with 367.

So could this finally be a Central Only District now?
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  #69  
Old 04-02-19, 02:36 PM
Power house Power house is offline
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When will it be posted and final what schools will be in what div?
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  #70  
Old 04-02-19, 05:56 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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2sportcoach,

this is my THEORY.
Ashland is on that "bubble line" of D2 vs. D1

Using the new enrollments, the ratio of schools in each geography for D1 using 364+ is as follows:
Central = 44
East = 0 (Tri-Valley drops to D2, Dover drops to D2)
Southeast = 2 (Logan, Chillicothe)
Northwest = 13 (Ashland is at 363)
Northeast = 62 (Kenston is the lowest at 364; Alliance is at 363)
Southwest = 41 (Western Brown is at 363)
**Schools 162 (165 if the cut is 364-plus as D1)

Central/SE = 4.54 or 4.46
NW = 1.28 or 1.36
NE = 6.12 or 6.11
SW = 4.05 or 4.07

Assumptions were based on my analysis of the entry grids and/or brackets of each sectional for schools with 7+ entered.

The fifth sectional was in the central last year and will probably be in the central again b/c they are closes to meriting a fifth (i.e. extra sectional) by number of schools. It's likely to be a mixed with the NW again based on the ratios. I have no idea how they will mix the schools up because only Lima Senior (possibly Ashland if the cut is 363-up vs. 364-up for D1) are not Toledo area. Has nothing to do with giving the central extra potential state spots.

Last edited by bucksman; 04-02-19 at 06:06 PM.
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  #71  
Old 04-02-19, 07:14 PM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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I coach in South Carolina and we've had this discussion it seems A LOT lately down here. We have 4 classifications and frankly only truly need 3 at the MOST. Why? This past season we had kids wrestling at state in the lowest classification who qualified for state by simply weighing in at their qualifier. We don't do sectionals or districts. Instead we do two Regionals. One for the Upper State and one for the Lower State. There are so few small lower state teams that at their regional qualifier this past February at weight classes 106, 113 and 138 only 3 kids weighed in and as such qualified for state. The lowest class in the lower state had 3 kids weigh in at 138 while the Upper State regional qualifier for the highest classification had a 32 man bracket with 20 plus kids in it.

Ohio with 3 is IMO perfect BUT I could see going to 4 if only for individual state and keeping 3 classes for the duals portion. Thoughts???
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  #72  
Old 04-02-19, 07:35 PM
MPhillips MPhillips is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scbuckeye99 View Post
Ohio with 3 is IMO perfect BUT I could see going to 4 if only for individual state and keeping 3 classes for the duals portion. Thoughts???
No. Some Sectionals can't field enough wrestlers with three divisions.
I can't see how four would help? But then again, If I knew anything, I'd be rich.
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  #73  
Old 04-02-19, 08:02 PM
wrestlfan wrestlfan is offline
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wlpdrpat
now imagine the d3 teams that have ZERO asst. coaches. The resources just aren't there like they are with bigger schools. There are plenty of them with zero too!!
Two years ago, I had a kid wrestle a match at the state tournament WITHOUTt a coach in his corner. It was the first round and fortunately, as a 4, he pinned a district champ. It was pretty cool and I wish I wasn't on a different mat and could have seen it.
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  #74  
Old 04-02-19, 09:15 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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[QUOTE=wrestlfan;7291256]wlpdrpat
Two years ago, I had a kid wrestle a match at the state tournament WITHOUTt a coach in his corner. It was the first round and fortunately, as a 4, he pinned a district champ.

Wait a minute, what am I missing? The official wouldn't start the match without a coach in the corner
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  #75  
Old 04-02-19, 10:29 PM
Tartan78 Tartan78 is offline
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There is WAY too much math being thrown about on this thread....I read this thread for amusement not to require me to understand Statistical Analysis


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  #76  
Old 04-03-19, 06:20 AM
wrestlfan wrestlfan is offline
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yes, the official started the match without a coach in the corner
it was tanner kunz at d3 285
I had 3 kids up at the same time and my ONE volunteer coach, who was a basketball player in high school, was with austin carroll, I was with Bret Posey while Tanner Kunz wrestled a match without a coach. I was running over to him when Poseys match was over. He was walking across the mat. I thought it was between periods and he was like coach I pinned him.
(the volunteer did a great job and was hugely hugely appreciated!!)
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  #77  
Old 04-03-19, 06:22 AM
wrestlfan wrestlfan is offline
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The point is, the advantage the areas of dense popularities have goes well beyond simply the numbers of boys.
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  #78  
Old 04-03-19, 06:45 AM
Jakeswrestling Jakeswrestling is offline
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We should have facts if we are going to be discussing numbers:

http://www.jakeswrestling.com/pdfs/2...lsforfeits.xls

This link is to a spreadsheet that contains data related to the regional rounds of the 2019 State Duals. Here are the highlights:

Division 1 - 112 schools participating - 95 had at least 1 forfeit
Division 2 - 116 schools participating - 96 had at least 1 forfeit
Division 3 - 117 schools participating - 107 had at least 1 forfeit

These numbers do not include double forfeits, nor do they take into account schools that did not participate in this event. There simply are not the number of kids participating in wrestling as in year's past. I would not describe the wrestling coaches as lazy. A more accurate description may be frustrated.

The biggest factor affecting the success of a wrestling program (or any school program), is the support of the school's administration or management. The next factor is whether or not one or more coaches is a teacher or employee INSIDE the building. Throw in the various financial difficulties of school districts along with open enrollment and the growth in charter schools, one has to wonder what the athletic environment may look like in 20 to 30 years.
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  #79  
Old 04-03-19, 07:19 AM
pinem07 pinem07 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Power house View Post
When will it be posted and final what schools will be in what div?
In 2017, the winter sports divisional breakdown was released on June 6. So I'm guessing that early June would be when they release it. Fall sports were released April 6. Once those are released we might be able to see what OHSAA does with other sports numbers to have a better idea what will happen with wrestling.
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  #80  
Old 04-03-19, 09:11 AM
cosh wrestling dad cosh wrestling dad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlfan View Post
The point is, the advantage the areas of dense popularities have goes well beyond simply the numbers of boys.
This statement is Scary true! My son travels at least an hour each way to find practice after sectionals/districts every year. Summer is even worse. When we get into these rooms (BTW A Huge thank you to all the coaches and teams that welcome wrestlers that travel to get good practices in) 90 percent of the wrestlers travel less than 20 min. So that's a min of 3 hours spent every day getting a good practice in for rural athletes. So yeah lets have one division to improve our numbers SMH! Let's also talked about the average kid and the average D2 or D3 program that doesn't see very many D1 kids. Those kids can now have a really good year because of the schedule their program and yet not ever have a chance to make it to the state tournament. That's extremely discouraging to a kid that's not willing to give it all to be a top end wrestler. Most will decide not to waste their time and energy. It would be much easier to be in another sport and be able to ride the bus to a state championship than put the effort in to make it to wrestling state championships
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  #81  
Old 04-03-19, 10:20 AM
mrroosevelt mrroosevelt is offline
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Here is, perhaps, an oversimplified thought.

How about one division for individual wrestling with 64 state qualifiers per weight class. This would be a net increase of 16 state qualifiers per weight class. (Currently we have three divisions with 16 per weight totaling 48 state qualifiers per weight class.). This could be done over three days, it would lead to a true STATE CHAMPION in each weight, and OHSAA would likely make more money.
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  #82  
Old 04-03-19, 10:44 AM
wrestlfan wrestlfan is offline
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here is the most simple thought ever
dont change a thing
its a top hs tournament in the nation
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  #83  
Old 04-03-19, 11:38 AM
2sportcoach 2sportcoach is offline
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Buck,

I have been told by the board for Central that they added the NW because it gives another opportunity for more state qualifiers. The majority of central coaches do not want to deal with that Northern District. TBH outside of those outside schools, that district is pretty much were the bottom get sent for slaughter.
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  #84  
Old 04-03-19, 01:42 PM
cosh wrestling dad cosh wrestling dad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrroosevelt View Post
Here is, perhaps, an oversimplified thought.

How about one division for individual wrestling with 64 state qualifiers per weight class. This would be a net increase of 16 state qualifiers per weight class. (Currently we have three divisions with 16 per weight totaling 48 state qualifiers per weight class.). This could be done over three days, it would lead to a true STATE CHAMPION in each weight, and OHSAA would likely make more money.
Or how about it stays the same and the champs can challenge? Then you have a true champion and the smaller schools get to be included in the fun!
Again by making it 1division you just keep smaller school kids out of the schott. The top tier will always be there but we are talking numbers not just the elite!
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  #85  
Old 04-03-19, 01:46 PM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Originally Posted by cosh wrestling dad View Post
Or how about it stays the same and the champs can challenge? Then you have a true champion and the smaller schools get to be included in the fun!
Again by making it 1division you just keep smaller school kids out of the schott. The top tier will always be there but we are talking numbers not just the elite!

I think the only change that needs made currently to the state tournament is to get that thing off of Baums page and on to Trackwrestling. For the love of all things wrestling please....
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  #86  
Old 04-03-19, 01:50 PM
Red Raider2009 Red Raider2009 is offline
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I like the three divisions for Ohio. I would be curious to see what the divisions would look like if the state raised the minimum number from 7 to 8 wrestlers to count as a team. I know that would shift more schools to division III and division II but by how many. I could easily see in 10 years there only being two boys divisions and then one girl division.
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  #87  
Old 04-03-19, 01:59 PM
chidy chidy is offline
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Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
I think the only change that needs made currently to the state tournament is to get that thing off of Baums page and on to Trackwrestling. For the love of all things wrestling please....


And finals not being 5 hours
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  #88  
Old 04-03-19, 02:19 PM
Lucksman Lucksman is offline
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Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
Wrestling does NOT have "competitive balance" rules in play. It is just straight enrollment.
Wrestling is considered an individual sport, thus it does not have the competitive balance rule. Apparently open enrollment does not have anything to do with performance haha. I have always thought the schools which only draw from THEIR communities should be put into a seperate division/ category. Building within your community should mean something, I think that is what high school sports were supposed to be.

OHSAA should have competitive balance in wrestling, bottom line.
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  #89  
Old 04-03-19, 02:28 PM
xamt xamt is offline
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Who checks the enrollment numbers and what are the consequences for not accurately reporting enrollment? Does anyone find it interesting that Milan Edison reported 197 boys and 175 girls in 2016 and 199 boys and 173 girls in 2018, a change of 2 in each gender. Ashland reported 408 boys and 401 girls in 2016 and 363 boys and 393 girls in 2018, a change of 45 boys and 8 girls. This is a huge drop in the number of males at Ashland.
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  #90  
Old 04-03-19, 04:31 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Originally Posted by xamt View Post
Who checks the enrollment numbers and what are the consequences for not accurately reporting enrollment? Does anyone find it interesting that Milan Edison reported 197 boys and 175 girls in 2016 and 199 boys and 173 girls in 2018, a change of 2 in each gender. Ashland reported 408 boys and 401 girls in 2016 and 363 boys and 393 girls in 2018, a change of 45 boys and 8 girls. This is a huge drop in the number of males at Ashland.
Really?
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