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  #31  
Old 03-31-19, 09:28 PM
DoubleBoots DoubleBoots is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
I did this very quickly based on the enrollment numbers posted to the OHSAA site.
Following caveats: (1) some of the schools have "TBD", I used last cycle's number for those schools (2) all schools numbers are subject to changes through appeal

Additional caveats - I used the entry grid for most of the sectionals, so if there were scratches that took a team from 7+ on the grid to LESS THAN seven, that would impact the team count.

In my estimate, I came up with the following:
364-up is DI
201-363 is DII
200-down is DIII
I'm confused...are these numbers for the cutoffs based on boys that are Freshman, Sophs, and Juniors only or do you have to count all four classes to get the total?
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  #32  
Old 04-01-19, 12:14 AM
jmog jmog is offline
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Originally Posted by DoubleBoots View Post
I'm confused...are these numbers for the cutoffs based on boys that are Freshman, Sophs, and Juniors only or do you have to count all four classes to get the total?
OHSAA counts always go by 3 classes. When they count every couple years it is freshmen to juniors.
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  #33  
Old 04-01-19, 05:47 AM
td2fall td2fall is offline
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Originally Posted by mrfootball View Post
Does anyone know if Dover is D1 or D2 and if fairless is D2 or D3
dover has 376 on last number count so youll have to wait an see what the new numbers will be.
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  #34  
Old 04-01-19, 06:39 AM
pinem07 pinem07 is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachPeck View Post
364-1299 (Mason)
201-363 is DII
200-down is DIII

We (Vandalia-Butler) have 950 students in grades 9-12 & we are D-1 in everything but football. Our magical number is 365!

Iím all for one division in wrestling with a 32 man bracket at sectional, district, and state.

Just my opinion.
Having one division discourages growth of our sport. Do you find out who the "true" state champ is, yes. But it does not help the growth of our sport. Less kids will wrestle and schools will cut their programs because of lack of numbers and lack of success. This doesn't mean I want 6 divisions or something crazy like that. I think 3 is a good number for the amount of programs that Ohio has in the state. It makes it competitive but also a chance for smaller programs to have success.
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  #35  
Old 04-01-19, 07:06 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by pinem07 View Post
Having one division discourages growth of our sport. Do you find out who the "true" state champ is, yes. But it does not help the growth of our sport. Less kids will wrestle and schools will cut their programs because of lack of numbers and lack of success. This doesn't mean I want 6 divisions or something crazy like that. I think 3 is a good number for the amount of programs that Ohio has in the state. It makes it competitive but also a chance for smaller programs to have success.
The growth you speak of is in the girls side of the sport. The OHSAA is doing nothing about this.
Other than the premier programs, there is no growth on the boys side. The number of full 14 man teams bears this out. The number of 14 man teams at each and every Sectional is pathetic. Like it or not, that is what we are seeing.
Moving from 3 to 2 divisions does not affect the number of teams, or the number of wrestlers, in any way. It is very different from the argument over reducing weight classes.
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  #36  
Old 04-01-19, 07:38 AM
wrestlfan wrestlfan is offline
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in se ohio, new programs are starting every year.
the sport is expanding
when you have a much smaller pool of student athletes, naturally the numbers are going to go down too
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  #37  
Old 04-01-19, 08:13 AM
CoachPeck CoachPeck is offline
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Wrestling in Ohio is not growing. Schools adding programs does not show growth when the overall numbers are not up. If we want to make it "fair", we need to do what football did and take the top 10% (?) and put them in their own division then split the remaining schools into 2 divisions.
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  #38  
Old 04-01-19, 08:24 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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I would rather teams get the option to bump up a division like they allow in the duals, before eliminating a division.

I think the most important issue that needs solved for wrestling besides the loss of a weight class and revising the weights that makes sense. (Think, bell curve) is universal rules for ALL DISTRICTS! Why some districts are allowed to "draft" their sectionals, but others are placed wherever by whomever? Lets make the processes universal for the state. I don't care either way it goes.
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  #39  
Old 04-01-19, 09:33 AM
ZMonster ZMonster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachPeck View Post
Wrestling in Ohio is not growing. Schools adding programs does not show growth when the overall numbers are not up. If we want to make it "fair", we need to do what football did and take the top 10% (?) and put them in their own division then split the remaining schools into 2 divisions.
I agree 100% with this. That was the intent of my post.

364-1299 (Mason) - difference = 935!! And that is only in 3 grades
201-363 is DII - difference = 162
200-down is DIII - difference = probably about 150

Not in favor of another division but how can two divisions have a range of 160 boys in three grades and one is close to 1000! If you are trying to keep the divisions equal as far as competition this isn't doing it. I would take everyone that is 600 or less and divide them into two divisions. 600+ you are Division 1. That would at least average out to about 300 difference for D2/D3 and about 600 for Division 1.
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  #40  
Old 04-01-19, 10:51 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by ZMonster View Post
I agree 100% with this. That was the intent of my post.

364-1299 (Mason) - difference = 935!! And that is only in 3 grades
201-363 is DII - difference = 162
200-down is DIII - difference = probably about 150

Not in favor of another division but how can two divisions have a range of 160 boys in three grades and one is close to 1000! If you are trying to keep the divisions equal as far as competition this isn't doing it. I would take everyone that is 600 or less and divide them into two divisions. 600+ you are Division 1. That would at least average out to about 300 difference for D2/D3 and about 600 for Division 1.
While I do understand what you are getting at, that does not appear to be how the OHSAA works it. They are looking at 3 divisions and trying to get approximately the same number of schools in each division. They simply divide the total number of schools with wrestling programs by 3 and the numbers fall wherever they fall.
IMO, there is no really effective method to equalize the competition. Not everyone is going to get a ribbon.
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  #41  
Old 04-01-19, 11:06 AM
wrestlfan wrestlfan is offline
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in se ohio, wrestling is growing and expanding.
more football coaches are embracing it.
waverly, ironton, south gallia, huntington, and eastern have started programs recently.
sadly, all you hear about on here is that they suck cause they are from down here
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  #42  
Old 04-01-19, 11:09 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlfan View Post
in se ohio, wrestling is growing and expanding.
more football coaches are embracing it.
waverly, ironton, south gallia, huntington, and eastern have started programs recently.
sadly, all you hear about on here is that they suck cause they are from down here
Unless something changed, add Federal Hocking to that list.
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  #43  
Old 04-01-19, 12:13 PM
mrfootball mrfootball is offline
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Originally Posted by td2fall View Post
dover has 376 on last number count so youll have to wait an see what the new numbers will be.
Large Sr class is graduating I am told the eighth grade class is a lot smaller than that exiting senior class. That should help them
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  #44  
Old 04-01-19, 05:51 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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Wrestling on the boys side is a shrinking sport. It is an increasingly specialized activity with a clear have/have not dynamic (admittedly, that is an all sports issue, though wrestling is on the extreme end of it)

The complaining about divisions seems to be by those at the bottom of D1, more than a broad issue, at least in my opinion. If the choice is two divisions or three divisions, I would choose two; however, that's going to ever happen. The more likely scenario is a move to four divisions, which I think would dilute the state series in a way that I dislike.
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  #45  
Old 04-01-19, 06:24 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
If the choice is two divisions or three divisions, I would choose two; however, that's going to ever happen. The more likely scenario is a move to four divisions, which I think would dilute the state series in a way that I dislike.

I agree 100%. Going to 2 divisions might make the present division 3 teams unhappy, but going to 4 divisions would be such a watered down affair as to almost be "a slap in the face" to all great programs, individuals, and accomplishments that have preceded.
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  #46  
Old 04-01-19, 06:29 PM
MPhillips MPhillips is offline
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Originally Posted by 350zjk View Post
"a slap in the face" to all great programs, individuals, and accomplishments that have preceded.
I'm sure there'll be an *Asterisk*.
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  #47  
Old 04-01-19, 06:35 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by 350zjk View Post
I agree 100%. Going to 2 divisions might make the present division 3 teams unhappy, but going to 4 divisions would be such a watered down affair as to almost be "a slap in the face" to all great programs, individuals, and accomplishments that have preceded.
Michigan has 4 divisions. My son coaches up there and I asked him if they have enough teams to support them. He looked at me like I lost my mind just before he told me that they can not.

BTW, before adding a 4th boys division, I would say that the OHSAA needs to have at least one girls division.
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  #48  
Old 04-01-19, 07:04 PM
tystang2001 tystang2001 is offline
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West union added a high school team this year as well in the south
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  #49  
Old 04-01-19, 07:32 PM
MPhillips MPhillips is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
BTW, before adding a 4th boys division, I would say that the OHSAA needs to have at least one girls division.
OHSAA is, "stalling." They should be, "pushing the pace."
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  #50  
Old 04-01-19, 07:38 PM
wrestlfan wrestlfan is offline
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forgot about fed hock. and didn't know about west union
glad to hear that there are 7 plus new programs down here
kudos to whats going on down here in se ohio
maybe the rest of the state should take notice that the sport can show growth
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  #51  
Old 04-02-19, 06:46 AM
EastsideCat EastsideCat is offline
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Growth in Sport

We didnt just discover the sport of wrestling up North. Nor did we just discover the Internet, toothbrushes, indoor plumbing, or a thing we like to call up North "the combustion engine."
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  #52  
Old 04-02-19, 07:33 AM
pinem07 pinem07 is offline
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Originally Posted by ZMonster View Post
I agree 100% with this. That was the intent of my post.

364-1299 (Mason) - difference = 935!! And that is only in 3 grades
201-363 is DII - difference = 162
200-down is DIII - difference = probably about 150

Not in favor of another division but how can two divisions have a range of 160 boys in three grades and one is close to 1000! If you are trying to keep the divisions equal as far as competition this isn't doing it. I would take everyone that is 600 or less and divide them into two divisions. 600+ you are Division 1. That would at least average out to about 300 difference for D2/D3 and about 600 for Division 1.
Having the cutoff at 600 would give division 1 63 teams with the current enrollment figures(not including the TBA schools). That would give about 210 schools in division 2 and division 3 each.

I like your idea. The difference between the top of division 1 and the bottom is ridiculous. I don't know if 600 is the best number but you're in the right ballpark I'd say. Not sure why they do it in football and no other sports. Probably because football is the money maker.
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  #53  
Old 04-02-19, 07:55 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by pinem07 View Post
Having the cutoff at 600 would give division 1 63 teams with the current enrollment figures(not including the TBA schools). That would give about 210 schools in division 2 and division 3 each.
Okay, playing devil's advocate here, is it right or fair (using your numbers) that a D1 guy would have a 1 in 63 chance of being a State Champ where in D2 or D3 they would have a 1 in 210 chance?
Somehow that seems a lot less fair to me.
Plus there would be no reason to hold a D1 Sectional tournament and barely any reason hold a District event.
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  #54  
Old 04-02-19, 08:19 AM
pinem07 pinem07 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Okay, playing devil's advocate here, is it right or fair (using your numbers) that a D1 guy would have a 1 in 63 chance of being a State Champ where in D2 or D3 they would have a 1 in 210 chance?
Somehow that seems a lot less fair to me.
Plus there would be no reason to hold a D1 Sectional tournament and barely any reason hold a District event.
That's why I said 600 probably isn't the best number but relatively close I think. Maybe get it where there is close to 90-100 schools in division 1. Those lower end school are still going to be less than half the number of boys than the biggest schools in Ohio.
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  #55  
Old 04-02-19, 08:53 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by pinem07 View Post
That's why I said 600 probably isn't the best number but relatively close I think. Maybe get it where there is close to 90-100 schools in division 1. Those lower end school are still going to be less than half the number of boys than the biggest schools in Ohio.
I understand what you mean but my contention is that if there are going to be three divisions, every wrestler should have close to an equal chance to be a State Champion. The size of the school is completely irrelevant to that.
There are always going to be some schools that are a lot larger than others. That will never mean that the wrestlers competing for those schools are higher quality than wrestlers coming from a "smaller" school.
All that said, we are beating a dead horse. The OHSAA is not very likely to take a bunch of Yappi posts into account when looking at competitive equality.
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  #56  
Old 04-02-19, 09:46 AM
ZMonster ZMonster is offline
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Originally Posted by pinem07 View Post
Having the cutoff at 600 would give division 1 63 teams with the current enrollment figures(not including the TBA schools). That would give about 210 schools in division 2 and division 3 each.

I like your idea. The difference between the top of division 1 and the bottom is ridiculous. I don't know if 600 is the best number but you're in the right ballpark I'd say. Not sure why they do it in football and no other sports. Probably because football is the money maker.
I didn't look at the number of schools but your right. 63 is way too small. Maybe they could figure out how to take the top 130 schools and see where that number is. Makes sense since theoretically the number of wrestlers would be the same. A D1 school has a better chance to fill a line up than a D2 or D3.
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  #57  
Old 04-02-19, 09:51 AM
pinem07 pinem07 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
I understand what you mean but my contention is that if there are going to be three divisions, every wrestler should have close to an equal chance to be a State Champion. The size of the school is completely irrelevant to that.
There are always going to be some schools that are a lot larger than others. That will never mean that the wrestlers competing for those schools are higher quality than wrestlers coming from a "smaller" school.
All that said, we are beating a dead horse. The OHSAA is not very likely to take a bunch of Yappi posts into account when looking at competitive equality.
It's harder to win a state title in D1, most of the time, because of the depth and amount of boys that the D1 schools can choose from. The size of the school is definitely part of that. They have a ton more boys to recruit from compared to the other division schools.
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  #58  
Old 04-02-19, 10:03 AM
Coach03 Coach03 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
I understand what you mean but my contention is that if there are going to be three divisions, every wrestler should have close to an equal chance to be a State Champion. The size of the school is completely irrelevant to that.
There are always going to be some schools that are a lot larger than others. That will never mean that the wrestlers competing for those schools are higher quality than wrestlers coming from a "smaller" school.
All that said, we are beating a dead horse. The OHSAA is not very likely to take a bunch of Yappi posts into account when looking at competitive equality.
I think you could definitely drop 50 or so D1 programs and reconfigure the bottom 2 divisions without losing any competitiveness at the D1 state tournament. The top 10 teams in D1 all had 500+ boys, with the exception of LaSalle, but they are a parochial school so ya.. there's that lol

Not to dismiss some of the studs at the D2/D3 level, there will always be some guys that can beat anyone in any division, but the blue bloods and bigger D1 schools seem to have more year-round wrestlers who specialize. For me, thats the biggest reason for not requiring each division to have the same amount of teams. It's a numbers game, smaller schools will have more multi-sport athletes due to availability and that generally leads to less competitive disparity. In my opinion, there's an obvious divide between the elite D1 wrestlers who train year round and the field so i don't think the state tournament would be hurt at all if D1 had fewer overall teams in it.
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  #59  
Old 04-02-19, 10:03 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by pinem07 View Post
It's harder to win a state title in D1, most of the time, because of the depth and amount of boys that the D1 schools can choose from. The size of the school is definitely part of that. They have a ton more boys to recruit from compared to the other division schools.
Most of the time I would agree, it is more difficult. However, having more ability to "recruit" does not lead to more wrestlers.
As an example, two years ago the Brecksville Tournament had 47 or 48 teams.
Take a guess at how many were 14 man squads?
The answer is 4 were complete. This includes a lot of BIG schools.
The same was true at Kenston that year where out of all the teams competing, there were 2 that were full. My point is that just because a school is big does not mean that they will have more wrestlers or better wrestlers. The odds are in their favor but that is not the whole story.
BTW, I would dispute the use of the phrase "choose from". With the exception of a very small number of the premier programs, very few schools can "choose" anything. They have what walks into the room.
Out.
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  #60  
Old 04-02-19, 10:50 AM
wrestlfan wrestlfan is offline
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So many people are blind to ALL the variables that go into divisions
Some kids in the rural districts have a 40 minute ride ONE WAY to a practice in the middle of winter when roads arent touched by plows.
Regarding schools that have 900 boys, how hard is it for them to get to practice? How hard is it for them to get to extra open mats and work outs. How accessible is high level coaching? The schools that have the high poplulation densities have so much more in front of them its crazy.
Keeping similar schools together is the right thing to do. And when I say similar Im talking population densities
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