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  #31  
Old 11-21-18, 02:58 PM
soccerfan63 soccerfan63 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
You changed your post.

There is no 'if". It IS allowed. And as long as its allowed there isn't much you can do to speed it up. Refs can stop the clocks as noted.



I would agree. But that would slow the game down more and there is no stoppage time in HS. Sounds like in the game where there were 12 that they were using the more traditional process of substituting.



I am sure these were by every definition "good refs". They made a mistake. And I sure they weren't happy with their mistake. I am guessing in a 5 man system that not every ref is responsible for every facet of the game. They split responsibilities I believe (I'll let a ref confirm or refute that). So even though there were 5 refs there, I think the one on the sideline is the one responsible for keeping track of the subs (actually two...one on each side). And the CR oversees the entire game obviously.

So even though in your eyes it shouldn't be hard to keep track of players we have an example where a mistake was made.

Fair enough. We all make mistakes. Just found it curious that it happened in a state semi game with the extra refs. I really don't care about the outcome of that game, have no connection to either team.

Just to give some context for this original post. I first posted about how frustrating it was to watch a Regional game called "by the book" and how I thought this was either a misinterpretation of the rule or that the rule should be changed. THEN, a week later the 12 players on the field occurred in the next round. I just found that kind of interesting (I think I used the word "hilarious" and got raked over the coals by MJ_SoccerRef)
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  #32  
Old 11-21-18, 10:50 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
You changed your post.

There is no 'if". It IS allowed. And as long as its allowed there isn't much you can do to speed it up. Refs can stop the clocks as noted.

I would agree. But that would slow the game down more and there is no stoppage time in HS. Sounds like in the game where there were 12 that they were using the more traditional process of substituting.

I am sure these were by every definition "good refs". They made a mistake. And I sure they weren't happy with their mistake. I am guessing in a 5 man system that not every ref is responsible for every facet of the game. They split responsibilities I believe (I'll let a ref confirm or refute that). So even though there were 5 refs there, I think the one on the sideline is the one responsible for keeping track of the subs (actually two...one on each side). And the CR oversees the entire game obviously.

So even though in your eyes it shouldn't be hard to keep track of players we have an example where a mistake was made.
Some more info, to answer some of your questions......coming from my own experiences when working with '4th Officials', whether there was 1 or 2 of them. Though they have other duties that I'll ask of them, including some above & beyond the standard duties of 4th Officials (there is an 'approved' list of duties), controlling the substitution process on their side of the field is their top priority.

During my own PreGame with the Crew, we cover the signals we will use to indicate if & when both touchlines are 'ready' following subs ('Split Benches'), or THE touchline if both benches are on the same side of the field. I have BOTH my AR on that TL AND the 4th confirm with one another BEFORE BOTH giving me, as the Center, the 'Go' signal; if they are not sure if they have 10 + a Keeper on their end of the field, keep the 'Hold' signal in place, until they verify 11 total. Typically, as the Center, I also observe the sub process, to ensure neither team EVER has too many. In my nearly 20 years as a HS official, I had ONE regular season game, years ago, where an inexperienced AR failed to maintain the 'Hold' signals & I thought all the replaced players had left the field. Wrong. Caught that team trying to sneak that player off, stopped play........apologized to that HC, because it WAS "our fault", and Cautioned the illegal player. I afterwards modified how I managed subs, and that 'mistake' has never been repeated.

Under NFHS Rules, IF a sub is standing at the Halfway Line, at the NEXT legal opportunity for that team to sub, we MUST bring that player on the field. As far as frequent subs late in the game, perhaps by that team ahead by 1 goal.....IF we believe it is a time-wasting maneuver, we certain CAN stop the clock. I look for other factors to be present.......are the subs taking their time coming on / heading to the bench, OR....are they moving with the same pace, on & off, as in the 1st half? Is it always 1 player, coming in for a player that (not by chance) happens to be as far from the bench as possible? Are they subbing at EVERY possible opportunity? If we DO stop the clock for this 'gamesmanship' (and IMHO, it clearly is that), we should politely inform the coach he/she is welcome to continue this strategy, but I WILL stop the clock each time.

Lastly, as far as 'raking someone over the coals'......it was deserved, IMO. I fail to see the humor in this unfortunate situation. I have no doubt NO ONE would feel worse about this than the Officials involved. "Hilarious" is the LAST word I would use to describe what happened in this State Semi. To attempt find any humor or comedy with this is beyond childish & ignorant......."In The Opinion Of This Referee".......

Last edited by MJ_SoccerRef; 11-22-18 at 08:53 AM..
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  #33  
Old 11-22-18, 02:21 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Thanks for the info.
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  #34  
Old 11-22-18, 10:52 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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As I've said for years, this whole two "4th officials" is absurd. I've never seen it in any other state, but Ohio. Put the benches on the same side of the field. One 4th official should be able to get the job done properly and there's less "blame" to go around. Plus, it's more cost-efficient.

The split benches and two 4ths is baffling. It really makes no sense. Throughout the whole season teams can play games with two or three referees. Postseason starts and they get three, four, or five referees. That is as inefficient as it could be.
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  #35  
Old 11-23-18, 09:09 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
As I've said for years, this whole two "4th officials" is absurd. I've never seen it in any other state, but Ohio. Put the benches on the same side of the field. One 4th official should be able to get the job done properly and there's less "blame" to go around. Plus, it's more cost-efficient.

The split benches and two 4ths is baffling. It really makes no sense. Throughout the whole season teams can play games with two or three referees. Postseason starts and they get three, four, or five referees. That is as inefficient as it could be.
I respectfully disagree. The 4th Officials perform other duties aside from managing the bench area(s), controlling substitutions. Having split benches does have one tremendous advantage for a 3-Man Crew: no bench in the quadrant where that AR is running his line. Not having to be concerned with crashing into some coach roaming out of the legal Bench Area permits to focus better on the game in front of us. I personally have 'laid out' several coaches to refused to get off the TL after being warned to stay within the Bench Area.......all coming on running attacks into my end from mid-field, when neither of us saw the other.

Having Split Benches also prevents negative interaction between the teams and/or their Head Coaches........and that CAN & DOES happen on occasion.
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  #36  
Old 11-23-18, 11:59 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ_SoccerRef View Post
I respectfully disagree. The 4th Officials perform other duties aside from managing the bench area(s), controlling substitutions. Having split benches does have one tremendous advantage for a 3-Man Crew: no bench in the quadrant where that AR is running his line. Not having to be concerned with crashing into some coach roaming out of the legal Bench Area permits to focus better on the game in front of us. I personally have 'laid out' several coaches to refused to get off the TL after being warned to stay within the Bench Area.......all coming on running attacks into my end from mid-field, when neither of us saw the other.

Having Split Benches also prevents negative interaction between the teams and/or their Head Coaches........and that CAN & DOES happen on occasion.
I get all of this, but if EVERY level of soccer around the world (and typically in the US) can survive with benches on the same side of the field and without two "4th officials," then OHSAA can figure it out too.

I've never seen the split bench in any other state I've coached in. And, I've definitely not see two 4th officials anywhere. I've also not seen any real issues between benches OR the with referees that becomes any real issue. Sure, it has happened, just like issues with split benches can happen.
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  #37  
Old 11-24-18, 08:55 AM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
I get all of this, but if EVERY level of soccer around the world (and typically in the US) can survive with benches on the same side of the field and without two "4th officials," then OHSAA can figure it out too.

I've never seen the split bench in any other state I've coached in. And, I've definitely not see two 4th officials anywhere. I've also not seen any real issues between benches OR the with referees that becomes any real issue. Sure, it has happened, just like issues with split benches can happen.
One of the 'issues' is having all the fans in the same stands, when both benches re on one TL. I have personally seen problems that needed dealt with in that scenario. Split benches, and putting the two groups of fans away from one another eliminates that potential problem. Just a thought.

And I'm curious as what issues with split benches you've seen? Personally, I haven't.......none where having the benches split actually led to that 'issue'......
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  #38  
Old 11-24-18, 10:49 AM
phatneff phatneff is offline
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MJ makes all very good and valid points. In my 21 years, I've come across the same issues. Until it is DIRECTED by the NFHS or OHSAA as to how subs are handled and where benches are located, the same issues will continue to be a part of the game in Ohio.

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  #39  
Old 11-24-18, 11:19 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
I get all of this, but if EVERY level of soccer around the world (and typically in the US) can survive with benches on the same side of the field and without two "4th officials," then OHSAA can figure it out too.

I've never seen the split bench in any other state I've coached in. And, I've definitely not see two 4th officials anywhere. I've also not seen any real issues between benches OR the with referees that becomes any real issue. Sure, it has happened, just like issues with split benches can happen.
What's the big deal with split benches and two fourth officials? It seems to be a small thing to take issue with.
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  #40  
Old 11-24-18, 01:19 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ_SoccerRef View Post
One of the 'issues' is having all the fans in the same stands, when both benches re on one TL. I have personally seen problems that needed dealt with in that scenario. Split benches, and putting the two groups of fans away from one another eliminates that potential problem. Just a thought.

And I'm curious as what issues with split benches you've seen? Personally, I haven't.......none where having the benches split actually led to that 'issue'......
One can still have fans on the other sides of the field while benches remain on one side. Isn't that how basketball operates too, many times fans are on opposite sides of the court.

Well, we just saw this substitution issue with split benches, no? The CR has to look on both sides of the field for substitutions, I've seen that become a hindrance since one side of the field is typical in all of soccer. You've got coaches barking in both AR's ears, plus the two 4ths. And, I've already alluded to the cost -- why spend $X on how many games with two fourth officials when the game operates just fine with one? It's an unnecessary cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
What's the big deal with split benches and two fourth officials? It seems to be a small thing to take issue with.
A small thing? Meanwhile a whole thread is devoted to the time it takes for a sub to come off a field? I'd rather be concerned with hundreds of dollars in an unnecessary expense rather than a few extra seconds in a game that has stoppages all the time anyway. We all want the game to be better, no? So, why not continue to align with the rest of the country/world?

I have yet to see a state where the benches are split, at any round in the state tournaments, including some MAJOR rivalries. The amount of "issues" is pretty minor with benches on the same side.

It's even more crazy to think that a coach can have a whole sideline to parade up-and-down like a football coach does with the split bench. Call me traditional, but it still doesn't make any sense to do it that way.
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  #41  
Old 11-24-18, 01:26 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Yes, a small issue. Fourth officials are only used at the regional level and beyond right? So what is that? 12 games when you account for the 3 divisions. What does that work out to be? $600-700?

Yes, it seems to be a small issue to me.
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  #42  
Old 11-24-18, 04:26 PM
soccerdaddy3 soccerdaddy3 is offline
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Except in the Ohio state finals. No split bench in those games.
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  #43  
Old 11-24-18, 05:07 PM
ISI ISI is offline
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The OHSAA has left it up to the schools on where to place the benches. They provided three ways: 1. split benches and crowd 2. benches on one side and crowd on the other 3. benches and crowd on the same side. Most AD's prefer the split benches and crowd so they do not have to deal with "issues." I think it is simply lazy on their part but the only way to change it is for the state to require benches on the same side of the field.
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  #44  
Old 11-24-18, 08:51 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Yes, a small issue. Fourth officials are only used at the regional level and beyond right? So what is that? 12 games when you account for the 3 divisions. What does that work out to be? $600-700?

Yes, it seems to be a small issue to me.

Not sure about your math: 3 Regional level games, 3 State level games, 3 Divisions in each gender......that's 18 '4th Officials' IF there was only 1 per each game, which does not happen. Also note that 4th Officials are NOT paid the same as the Main Crew......typically half of the normal game fee.
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  #45  
Old 11-24-18, 10:18 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ_SoccerRef View Post
Not sure about your math: 3 Regional level games, 3 State level games, 3 Divisions in each gender......that's 18 '4th Officials' IF there was only 1 per each game, which does not happen. Also note that 4th Officials are NOT paid the same as the Main Crew......typically half of the normal game fee.
My math is probably off. Didnt figure it correct. And I only figured one gender. I think yours might off be too...

8 regional semi final games
4 regional final games
2 state semi final games
3 divisions.

Someone reminded us that state finals has benches on same side.

So what is that 42 games? You said about half....what is that then, about $35 per game?. So maybe $1500 for each gender to have a second fourth official?

And I am just trying to calculate the second fourth official. I figure at regionals and beyond there would always be a fourth even if we had the benches on the same side of the field.
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  #46  
Old 11-24-18, 10:29 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by ISI View Post
The OHSAA has left it up to the schools on where to place the benches. They provided three ways: 1. split benches and crowd 2. benches on one side and crowd on the other 3. benches and crowd on the same side. Most AD's prefer the split benches and crowd so they do not have to deal with "issues." I think it is simply lazy on their part but the only way to change it is for the state to require benches on the same side of the field.
It might be a little lazy on the AD's part but since most schools play on the football field it's just easier to keep the benches where they are for football. Heaven forbid they put in an effort for soccer.

Ok. It's lazy. Lol.

Obviously I am only talking about the setup of the field and not issues between fans in the stands.
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  #47  
Old 11-26-18, 10:50 PM
soccerfan63 soccerfan63 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ_SoccerRef View Post
Some more info, to answer some of your questions......coming from my own experiences when working with '4th Officials', whether there was 1 or 2 of them. Though they have other duties that I'll ask of them, including some above & beyond the standard duties of 4th Officials (there is an 'approved' list of duties), controlling the substitution process on their side of the field is their top priority.

During my own PreGame with the Crew, we cover the signals we will use to indicate if & when both touchlines are 'ready' following subs ('Split Benches'), or THE touchline if both benches are on the same side of the field. I have BOTH my AR on that TL AND the 4th confirm with one another BEFORE BOTH giving me, as the Center, the 'Go' signal; if they are not sure if they have 10 + a Keeper on their end of the field, keep the 'Hold' signal in place, until they verify 11 total. Typically, as the Center, I also observe the sub process, to ensure neither team EVER has too many. In my nearly 20 years as a HS official, I had ONE regular season game, years ago, where an inexperienced AR failed to maintain the 'Hold' signals & I thought all the replaced players had left the field. Wrong. Caught that team trying to sneak that player off, stopped play........apologized to that HC, because it WAS "our fault", and Cautioned the illegal player. I afterwards modified how I managed subs, and that 'mistake' has never been repeated.

Under NFHS Rules, IF a sub is standing at the Halfway Line, at the NEXT legal opportunity for that team to sub, we MUST bring that player on the field. As far as frequent subs late in the game, perhaps by that team ahead by 1 goal.....IF we believe it is a time-wasting maneuver, we certain CAN stop the clock. I look for other factors to be present.......are the subs taking their time coming on / heading to the bench, OR....are they moving with the same pace, on & off, as in the 1st half? Is it always 1 player, coming in for a player that (not by chance) happens to be as far from the bench as possible? Are they subbing at EVERY possible opportunity? If we DO stop the clock for this 'gamesmanship' (and IMHO, it clearly is that), we should politely inform the coach he/she is welcome to continue this strategy, but I WILL stop the clock each time.

Lastly, as far as 'raking someone over the coals'......it was deserved, IMO. I fail to see the humor in this unfortunate situation. I have no doubt NO ONE would feel worse about this than the Officials involved. "Hilarious" is the LAST word I would use to describe what happened in this State Semi. To attempt find any humor or comedy with this is beyond childish & ignorant......."In The Opinion Of This Referee".......
I think what you are failing to see, and what is getting lost in this thread is that you can quote all the rules you want (and yes, we know that subs are "required" to come on to the field if at the line, and that refs can and should stop the clock for subs that are time wasting, etc.), but the fact is that there is tremendous inconsistency across the board in the manner in which these rules are applied. And not only during the season in which you have inexperienced refs, but during the post season. THAT is the problem with our HS officials, a lack of common practices when applying the rules. I frequently saw coaches running subs up to the bench after the ball went out of play and refs allowing them on the field during post-season play, some refs stop the clock for time wasting while others don't, etc. It seems to me that the officials association needs to get together and develop common protocols and practices that are widely and consistently applied. I can understand how this may be difficult during the season with a lack of qualified refs available, but not during the post-season. These are supposed to be our best and brightest officials, and each game is handled differently. I think it has something to do with each official feeling as if they have the latitude to interpret the rules as they please, and egos getting in the way, but IF we are going to have 4th officials, lets do some training on how we are going to use them and make sure they are all on the same page. And yes, MJ, I still find it hilarious (in a sad and ironic way) that someone like you, who can quote every rule in the book, cannot count to 11(or should I say 12).
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