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  #31  
Old 05-16-19, 09:03 AM
Omar Omar is offline
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Originally Posted by beeman View Post
Not let go. Offered early retirement and accepted. If they didn't want to accept, I assume they would still be there.

LaSalle is over 3 mill in debt. The current administration is working to get out of it, as opposed to the previous adm. that let this debt build up.
Itís more appropriate to say the Diocese is on the hook for that 3mm. The people at LS arenít going to be the ones responsible for paying it back if they go under.
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  #32  
Old 05-16-19, 09:26 AM
Don Flamenco Don Flamenco is offline
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Originally Posted by ogealbhain View Post
I don't want to see any Catholic school close. I know there are a handful of Catholic grade schools in Columbus that are only open still due to vouchers.
I just don't see it as being sustainable. Especially if some of these schools are in huge debt.
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  #33  
Old 05-16-19, 09:28 AM
Don Flamenco Don Flamenco is offline
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Originally Posted by beeman View Post
Not let go. Offered early retirement and accepted. If they didn't want to accept, I assume they would still be there.

LaSalle is over 3 mill in debt. The current administration is working to get out of it, as opposed to the previous adm. that let this debt build up.
How did the Archdiocese allow this to happen? Don't they have an alum really high up in their administration? I wonder if that is why it was allowed to continue for so long. $3 mil is significant.

We all know Cohen's gone. Is Tankersly still there?
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  #34  
Old 05-16-19, 09:34 AM
Don Flamenco Don Flamenco is offline
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Originally Posted by oskar View Post
LS was needed sixty years ago in part because of the baby boom, larger families and Elder and RB were bursting at the seams (they still did). Today not so much. Catholic school enrollment has been contracting and now we have this huge overcapacity available. Something has got to give, and probably should have already. Sure seems that the finances at LS have been sketchy.
I agree. There just isn't the demand for all these catholic high schools on the west side anymore. Certainly not 2 all girls and 2 all boys high schools. As much as I hate to say it many of the areas these schools draw from are in steep decline as well and its not just Price Hill. It's Westwood, Cheviot, Mt Airy, Colerain as well, all traditional areas LaSalle and Mercy McAuley drew from.
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  #35  
Old 05-16-19, 09:47 AM
ogealbhain ogealbhain is offline
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Originally Posted by Don Flamenco View Post
I just don't see it as being sustainable. Especially if some of these schools are in huge debt.
I agree. I well understand the reality of the situation. I was somewhat involved in the Diocese here in Columbus.

See this data:

https://www.ncea.org/NCEA/Proclaim/C...7-9903b35db89b
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  #36  
Old 05-16-19, 09:54 AM
w1llie w1llie is offline
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Originally Posted by Don Flamenco View Post
How did the Archdiocese allow this to happen? Don't they have an alum really high up in their administration? I wonder if that is why it was allowed to continue for so long. $3 mil is significant.

We all know Cohen's gone. Is Tankersly still there?
Tankersly is out

This led to the position elimination of the Executive Director role that was held by Greg Tankersley.
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  #37  
Old 05-16-19, 10:03 AM
Don Flamenco Don Flamenco is offline
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Originally Posted by w1llie View Post
Tankersly is out

This led to the position elimination of the Executive Director role that was held by Greg Tankersley.
Wow. Looks like everything said on this board over the years in regards to the mess over there was close to 100% accurate.
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  #38  
Old 05-16-19, 10:06 AM
Omar Omar is offline
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If LS is really in a vulnerable state, Elder should attack and poach some students. If the shoe was on the other foot Tankersly and Cohen would not hesitate to cut Elderís throat, so nobody should feel one ounce of guilt. Itís a competitive business, with a shrinking customer base. You do whatever is necessary (with in the rules) to give yourself a leg up. Every other school can go screw.
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  #39  
Old 05-16-19, 10:11 AM
Don Flamenco Don Flamenco is offline
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Originally Posted by ogealbhain View Post
I agree. I well understand the reality of the situation. I was somewhat involved in the Diocese here in Columbus.

See this data:

https://www.ncea.org/NCEA/Proclaim/C...7-9903b35db89b
Those are some scary numbers and just in a 10 year period.
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  #40  
Old 05-16-19, 10:24 AM
ogealbhain ogealbhain is offline
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Originally Posted by Don Flamenco View Post
Those are some scary numbers and just in a 10 year period.
Yes, it's much worse if you go back further.
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  #41  
Old 05-16-19, 10:24 AM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is online now
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Originally Posted by Don Flamenco View Post
Those are some scary numbers and just in a 10 year period.
And with rising costs, continued scandal, reluctance for the Church to change, continued consolidation, and more and more families not involved in Church, it will be nearly impossible for these numbers to ever reach these high levels again without a dramatic decrease in cost.

Not to mention all of these shrinking schools and costs have continued to go up exponentially. It literally makes no sense. We've all been sold a bill of goods for a long time, and people are finally catching on.

The model needs a complete overhaul, but no one in charge is willing to admit it.
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  #42  
Old 05-16-19, 11:02 AM
oskar oskar is offline
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Originally Posted by ogealbhain View Post
I agree. I well understand the reality of the situation. I was somewhat involved in the Diocese here in Columbus.

See this data:

https://www.ncea.org/NCEA/Proclaim/C...7-9903b35db89b
Those enrollment numbers are alarming. But the number that got my attention is the 12\1 student to teacher ratio. Seems overall the number of teachers could be cut in half without diluting the quality of education or even coming close to overcrowding classrooms (at least on average). I realize that's overly simplistic, but 12 to 1?
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  #43  
Old 05-16-19, 11:07 AM
Omar Omar is offline
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Originally Posted by Don Flamenco View Post
Those are some scary numbers and just in a 10 year period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogealbhain View Post
Yes, it's much worse if you go back further.
That’s why it’s important to go after more non Feeder students. Catholicism is not doing so hot, and IMO, the school is more important than the faith. Don’t hang your hat on a loser. Focus more on marketing the quality of the education and the discipline. People really don’t care about the religious aspect. I know it seems blasphemous, but it’s true. Religion is just not that important in today’s society. Parents are more worried about their kids knowing how to code than what Transubstantiation is.

Last edited by Omar; 05-16-19 at 11:22 AM.
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  #44  
Old 05-16-19, 12:01 PM
ogealbhain ogealbhain is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Thatís why itís important to go after more non Feeder students. Catholicism is not doing so hot, and IMO, the school is more important than the faith. Donít hang your hat on a loser. Focus more on marketing the quality of the education and the discipline. People really donít care about the religious aspect. I know it seems blasphemous, but itís true. Religion is just not that important in todayís society. Parents are more worried about their kids knowing how to code than what Transubstantiation is.
Up here, the Diocese' own research shows that parents rank priorities as: 1) Education 2) Discipline/rigor and 3) Religion.

Even though their research shows it, leadership refuses to accept it.
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  #45  
Old 05-16-19, 12:17 PM
az0217t az0217t is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
That’s why it’s important to go after more non Feeder students. Catholicism is not doing so hot, and IMO, the school is more important than the faith. Don’t hang your hat on a loser. Focus more on marketing the quality of the education and the discipline. People really don’t care about the religious aspect. I know it seems blasphemous, but it’s true. Religion is just not that important in today’s society. Parents are more worried about their kids knowing how to code than what Transubstantiation is.
IMHO These kinds of attitudes are what got us here. Parents need to "worry about it" or "make it a priority." You either believe in it or you don't. The school is there to help teach the students about God and the religion. You can get the kids in by offering the best education, but they are CALLED to try to win the kids over to Christ while they are there.

There is some merit to fighting to keep the schools open to hopefully help things turn around, but that won't happen if they are only public schools with better discipline. The values, the faith, need to remain KEY. The traditions that everyone loves will change if the faith element is diluted.

Last edited by az0217t; 05-16-19 at 12:36 PM.
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  #46  
Old 05-16-19, 12:23 PM
Golgi app Golgi app is offline
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Per recent enquirer article, both holy family and st lawrence are around half latino now. Will be curious to see if this translates to the high school level.
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  #47  
Old 05-16-19, 12:57 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is online now
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Originally Posted by az0217t View Post
IMHO These kinds of attitudes are what got us here. Parents need to "worry about it" or "make it a priority." You either believe in it or you don't. The school is there to help teach the students about God and the religion. You can get the kids in by offering the best education, but they are CALLED to try to win the kids over to Christ while they are there.

There is some merit to fighting to keep the schools open to hopefully help things turn around, but that won't happen if they are only public schools with better discipline. The values, the faith, need to remain KEY. The traditions that everyone loves will change if the faith element is diluted.
This is what drives me nuts. If this is what drives you to Catholic education, that is great. I support it 100%.

But the fact of the matter is, the vast majority do not have this mantra when choosing a school. We cannot continue to assume that the same ideals the baby boomers had about religion, obedience, rules, and education are the same ideals current high school aged students and their younger parents have.

In fact, current high school kids will be the most inclusive and open (to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc, etc) in history. The more structured, the more rules, the less inclusivity, the more "obedience"-based, the more likely they will be put off by an institution.

Younger kids and families, more and more, do not link themselves to groups. They don't care about being Catholic, or being a Republican, or honestly, being a Male or Female, in some cases. They want to be viewed as open with ideas, actions, and beliefs all across the spectrum.

The Catholic Church will never allow that type of thinking to infiltrate their strategies. And it will be their downfall. If all of these institutions are being led by 50-80 year old Catholic "made men" (pun intended), then it will never change. I see the same type of ideals from leadership at Elder (not bad people, but people who think, act, and look the same). You have to adapt.
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  #48  
Old 05-16-19, 01:14 PM
ogealbhain ogealbhain is offline
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Originally Posted by Golgi app View Post
Per recent enquirer article, both holy family and st lawrence are around half latino now. Will be curious to see if this translates to the high school level.
I would assume (don't know) that the vast majority of kids at those schools are voucher kids. If that translates to high school, what is the financial implication?
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  #49  
Old 05-16-19, 01:42 PM
Visitation_Football Visitation_Football is offline
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Itís a matter of time before a few of these schools close. Im sure the Archdiocese will let it drag on far longer than they should putting themselves in an even worse financial situation but the writing clearly seems to be on the wall. You are talking barely over 200 students in next years freshman class at LS/MM combined. I donít see how they can continue to operate two campuses with such low numbers.
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  #50  
Old 05-16-19, 01:44 PM
JusticeLeague3 JusticeLeague3 is offline
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And if its true that the Archdiocese is going after how leagues pay officials, and make everyone 1099 refs, then you are going to have one less thing that brings Catholic folks together because grade school programs will fall by the wayside because they cant afford to police that nor have the manpower to handle it. Why the diocese cares about what officials make and how they are paid is beyond me. They have WAY BIGGER issues than trying to shut down youth athletics. But its part of their plan to get out of the sports aspect of schools due to liability.
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  #51  
Old 05-16-19, 01:49 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is online now
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This will drag on for decades, unfortunately.

What should be happening is a plan to consolidate all west-wide Catholic schools into 1-2 buildings over the next 5-10 years. Build them new if you have to. It would be 1-2 buildings to maintain and lower costs for everyone.
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  #52  
Old 05-16-19, 01:50 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is online now
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Originally Posted by JusticeLeague3 View Post
And if its true that the Archdiocese is going after how leagues pay officials, and make everyone 1099 refs, then you are going to have one less thing that brings Catholic folks together because grade school programs will fall by the wayside because they cant afford to police that nor have the manpower to handle it. Why the diocese cares about what officials make and how they are paid is beyond me. They have WAY BIGGER issues than trying to shut down youth athletics. But its part of their plan to get out of the sports aspect of schools due to liability.
Is this new? This is absurd, if true.
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  #53  
Old 05-16-19, 01:52 PM
Don Flamenco Don Flamenco is offline
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Originally Posted by JusticeLeague3 View Post
And if its true that the Archdiocese is going after how leagues pay officials, and make everyone 1099 refs, then you are going to have one less thing that brings Catholic folks together because grade school programs will fall by the wayside because they cant afford to police that nor have the manpower to handle it. Why the diocese cares about what officials make and how they are paid is beyond me. They have WAY BIGGER issues than trying to shut down youth athletics. But its part of their plan to get out of the sports aspect of schools due to liability.
Doesn't surprise me in the least. They ignore a school that is intentionally operating in the red for a decade while insane crap like this takes priority. What a joke.
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  #54  
Old 05-16-19, 01:57 PM
az0217t az0217t is offline
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Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
This is what drives me nuts. If this is what drives you to Catholic education, that is great. I support it 100%.

But the fact of the matter is, the vast majority do not have this mantra when choosing a school. We cannot continue to assume that the same ideals the baby boomers had about religion, obedience, rules, and education are the same ideals current high school aged students and their younger parents have.

In fact, current high school kids will be the most inclusive and open (to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc, etc) in history. The more structured, the more rules, the less inclusivity, the more "obedience"-based, the more likely they will be put off by an institution.

Younger kids and families, more and more, do not link themselves to groups. They don't care about being Catholic, or being a Republican, or honestly, being a Male or Female, in some cases. They want to be viewed as open with ideas, actions, and beliefs all across the spectrum.

The Catholic Church will never allow that type of thinking to infiltrate their strategies. And it will be their downfall. If all of these institutions are being led by 50-80 year old Catholic "made men" (pun intended), then it will never change. I see the same type of ideals from leadership at Elder (not bad people, but people who think, act, and look the same). You have to adapt.
You only have to adapt to be successful by worldly standards. To be successful by God's standards, you have to stand up for what Christ taught about living out your faith. I don't want my kids and grand-kids going to school with a lot of people who don't link themselves to any beliefs. As the saying goes, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."

It is sad when a Catholic school closes, but it isn't the lack of kids in the school we should mourn; it is the lack of faith in the kids (and parents). I'd rather go down fighting than selling out.

The mission of the school is to turn boys into Christian men, not just, athletic, well-educated men who can get good jobs.

I may be in the minority, but I won't have the interest in supporting a fully or semi-secular private school that I do in supporting the catholic school that has educated me, and other generations of men in my family. And alumni support is critical for survival.
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  #55  
Old 05-16-19, 02:02 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is online now
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You can still have a faith-based Catholic education without it being THE driving factor for success.

Getting a faith based education is a priority for you, that doesn't mean you get to decide that for every family. If faith is your basis for selecting a school, that's fine, Elder can provide that. They also do other things well.

But people shouldn't be assuming that faith is the main motivator for everyone attending Elder. And if Elder was smart, they shouldn't be assuming it either, and realize that in some cases, religion isn't the end all be all for most families. That's where I have the issue.

No one is saying to eliminate Catholic teachings from Elder.

If religion was an elective rather than a requirement, would the classes be full? I think we both know the answer to that. Being a good Christian is possible without a deep rooted loyalty to Catholicism. They already provide that for plenty of kids today. Strictly using Catholic "rules" for not changing your ways of operating is simply stupid, IMHO.

Last edited by OldSchoolPanther; 05-16-19 at 02:13 PM.
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  #56  
Old 05-16-19, 02:02 PM
Don Flamenco Don Flamenco is offline
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Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
This will drag on for decades, unfortunately.

What should be happening is a plan to consolidate all west-wide Catholic schools into 1-2 buildings over the next 5-10 years. Build them new if you have to. It would be 1-2 buildings to maintain and lower costs for everyone.
I just hope Elder doesn't get forced into a merger with either of those schools. Elder would be the one getting totally screwed if that happened. Doesn't Elder have a $20 mil plus endowment? Do those other schools even have one?
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  #57  
Old 05-16-19, 02:45 PM
Omar Omar is offline
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Originally Posted by az0217t View Post
IMHO These kinds of attitudes are what got us here. Parents need to "worry about it" or "make it a priority." You either believe in it or you don't. The school is there to help teach the students about God and the religion. You can get the kids in by offering the best education, but they are CALLED to try to win the kids over to Christ while they are there.

There is some merit to fighting to keep the schools open to hopefully help things turn around, but that won't happen if they are only public schools with better discipline. The values, the faith, need to remain KEY. The traditions that everyone loves will change if the faith element is diluted.
You canít fight societal changes, youíve got to adapt. Iím not saying you need to remove the faith aspect from Catholic schools, but you canít have it be a priority in your marketing. Especially, if you want to pull in non Catholics.
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  #58  
Old 05-16-19, 02:50 PM
Omar Omar is offline
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Originally Posted by az0217t View Post
You only have to adapt to be successful by worldly standards. To be successful by God's standards, you have to stand up for what Christ taught about living out your faith. I don't want my kids and grand-kids going to school with a lot of people who don't link themselves to any beliefs. As the saying goes, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."

It is sad when a Catholic school closes, but it isn't the lack of kids in the school we should mourn; it is the lack of faith in the kids (and parents). I'd rather go down fighting than selling out.

The mission of the school is to turn boys into Christian men, not just, athletic, well-educated men who can get good jobs.

I may be in the minority, but I won't have the interest in supporting a fully or semi-secular private school that I do in supporting the catholic school that has educated me, and other generations of men in my family. And alumni support is critical for survival.

What good is alumni support if thereís no school? The fact youíd rather have the school not exist rather than modify their message is concerning. Obviously, you canít eradicate the religious teaching portion, but it cannot be a focal point.

And if youíre upset about the dwindling # of Catholics, be mad at the higher ups who protected pedophiles all over the world.
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  #59  
Old 05-16-19, 02:52 PM
Omar Omar is offline
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Originally Posted by Don Flamenco View Post
I just hope Elder doesn't get forced into a merger with either of those schools. Elder would be the one getting totally screwed if that happened. Doesn't Elder have a $20 mil plus endowment? Do those other schools even have one?
In 2013, LS called back a Muni Bond for 2.57 mm they issued in 2007. Where did they get 2.57 mm to essentially pay off that debt?

It sounds like their $ was epically mismanaged. Most responsible $ mgrs for schools would try to time the outflow of $ for liabilities (salaries, maintenance, etc) with the inflow from tuition.

As far as Elder goes, an Endowment is difft than an operating Budget. Endowments would be managed separately, where you can take more investment risk bc the Time Horizon is theoretically infinite. You wouldn’t want to rely on an endowment to cover basic expenses for running the school. Maybe you dip into for large one time/infrequent expenses like installing AC or new field turf.

Last edited by Omar; 05-16-19 at 03:07 PM.
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  #60  
Old 05-16-19, 03:27 PM
az0217t az0217t is offline
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I don't assume that faith is the primary motivator for people sending their kids to Elder, and I don't think Elder assumes that either. Evidence is everywhere that Christ is being driven out of society and that "Me"-ism is replacing belief in a higher power. But the point is that Elder was founded by a church, for a purpose. That differentiates them from a business trying to appeal to the cultural flavor of the month for good numbers on the spreadsheet.

There is no reason they can't market themselves to non-Catholics, but they won't be Elder if they change standards and requirements to become more appealing to other demographics. Their mission includes combating the secular, not enabling it.

When it comes to education and the church (and Elder). Faith based education was, is and should always be THE priority. Those who choose Elder for other reasons are still welcome, so how is that a problem? They can choose other private schools if they don't want to learn in a Christ-centered environment.

As I see it, the difference in our viewpoints is that your arguments are pragmatic, and based on the idea of preserving Elder High School in name and building, whereas mine are based on preserving it in spirit and mission as well, as I see no need for it to exist without its spirit and mission--it would just be another good school.

Altiora ! - (but what would the higher things be?)
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