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  #1  
Old 09-19-17, 03:16 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Mercy rules?

I know here in Ohio we do a running clock after a certain margin (6 goals). I'm not sure what the point is, but it really doesn't shorten the game much and definitely doesn't make the game go any faster.

What does everyone think of it? Are there better options?

What do other states do?

I personally think it does virtually nothing, but anything short of actually taking time off the clock, I'm not sure what else can be done.
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  #2  
Old 09-19-17, 03:29 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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The only way the clock stops now is when goals are scored, injuries, & cards. I think that is all of them?

So if there is a running clock in the second half the amount of time "ran off" for these instances could vary. Could be as low as zero obviously. But if one of these things did happen it would just depend on fast the restart takes place.

Maybe a few minutes will be "ran off" during restarts. If the winning team keeps scoring I would imagine the losing team wouldn't be in a hurry to restart.

But you're right. I don't think it would amount to much in reality.

Someone said Kentucky has a 10 goal mercy rule. Maybe that would be good.

Or maybe a special button on the scoreboard that speeds the clock up like on the FIFA video game?
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  #3  
Old 09-19-17, 05:22 PM
Ilsco Ilsco is offline
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I know I am rehashing my pet peeve again, but this really becomes an issue in the first round of the tournament. Winless or one win teams matched up against state ranked teams is not fun for anyone. Plus, if you are a player, parent or coach for losing program these types of match ups just reinforce how bad the program is and it creates a vicious circle.

Simple solution is to take the bottom half of the seeded teams in each bracket and require them to play in each and mandate a bye for the top seeds. At the very least this gives struggling programs an opportunity to at least be competitive in a tournament game and doesn't result in the winning programs passing around for 70 minutes or only scoring off of left footed bicycle kicks
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Old 09-19-17, 05:48 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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I would be fine with that. Of course in some brackets it won't matter as everyone will scatter from the top team or two for as long as possible. So, even with a play-in scenario like you describe you will still have entire sectional brackets as lopsided wins.

Unless you are looking to pre- determine brackets based on seeding. No longer allowing teams to choose their own destiny.
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  #5  
Old 09-19-17, 10:10 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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NFHS Rule 7, Section 4, Art. 1........(page 37).....

......The clock shall be stopped for an injury, for a penalty kick, for cautioning, for disqualifications, following the scoring of a goal, and when a referee orders the clock be stopped.
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  #6  
Old 09-19-17, 10:37 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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As a ref....how many minutes do you think get "ran off" that would otherwise would have been stopped in games where the running clock is used? I have been at a few of those games but never paid enough attention to give an accurate estimate. If I had to guess, I would say definitely less than 10.
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  #7  
Old 09-20-17, 06:24 AM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
As a ref....how many minutes do you think get "ran off" that would otherwise would have been stopped in games where the running clock is used? I have been at a few of those games but never paid enough attention to give an accurate estimate. If I had to guess, I would say definitely less than 10.
Probably so, in most cases. I’d think the only way you’d approach 10 minutes-worth of clock would be for multiple goals, and a several Cautions and/or injuries. Through meeting discussions, etc. (in my 2 Associations, at least), we’ve agreed that we’d still stop the clock for a serious injury, that’s going to require extended time to treat, like when an ambulance is called in.

As a clarification point, that ‘running clock’ for the 6-goal differential takes effect only in the 2nd half.
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  #8  
Old 09-20-17, 08:15 AM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Personally, I hate the mercy rule. I have been beat bad...and still hate the mercy rule.

I've been through it as a player and coach. The only thing it does is prevents teams/players from actually playing. I hate that a 10-0 game at half could prevent MANY kids from playing another 40 minutes (from either team). I coached a team that asked if they were able to score 10, and I asked why not? They said previous coach would only allow 8 and would basically quit playing soccer.

The objective is to teach the game. We can be responsible coaches while NOT going ridiculous with the scoring. I personally think it's more embarrassing to play "possession" without actually scoring. It's like you are toying with the opponent. Move players around. Put in stipulations while playing. These 10+ goal games aren't "random." Teams know when they can beat a team bad. Every time I faced a high scoring game, the opponent was truly respectful in the match.
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  #9  
Old 09-20-17, 08:57 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
Personally, I hate the mercy rule. I have been beat bad...and still hate the mercy rule.

I've been through it as a player and coach. The only thing it does is prevents teams/players from actually playing. I hate that a 10-0 game at half could prevent MANY kids from playing another 40 minutes (from either team). I coached a team that asked if they were able to score 10, and I asked why not? They said previous coach would only allow 8 and would basically quit playing soccer.

The objective is to teach the game. We can be responsible coaches while NOT going ridiculous with the scoring. I personally think it's more embarrassing to play "possession" without actually scoring. It's like you are toying with the opponent. Move players around. Put in stipulations while playing. These 10+ goal games aren't "random." Teams know when they can beat a team bad. Every time I faced a high scoring game, the opponent was truly respectful in the match.
I agree coaches CAN BE responsible but it's hard to legislate that. That's why we have mercy rules in the first place.

I understand the time thing. Reducing playing time has a bit of unfairness to it.

The running clock in football becomes downright silly as it runs through everything. I've seen one long winded possession wipe out an entire quarter before. Honestly, there's no point in even playing any more. What it does though is get the game done quickly. And I think that's a good thing.

I understand wanting to teach, but if the other team is that much better and still pressing the issue, what can you really teach? How to take a beating? So to me from the losing side, that doesn't hold any water.

While I agree that playing possession ball can be demeaning... but isn't losing by 10-15 goals also demeaning? How about 19-0? So to me that doesn't hold any water either.

Also, in those situations you get a lot of talking, a lot of cruel comments and eventually retaliation. Possibly injuries. Again, another reason to figure something out.

Is ending the game at a 10 goal lead an answer? Maybe. Isn't there a mercy rule in baseball and softball?

Is cutting the second half to say 20 minutes the answer? Maybe. I don't know.

I think it is certainly an issue and something to be discussed though.

Myself, I'm starting the running clock at 5 and ending the game at 10.

Not sure how many out there have seen a 5 goal comeback but I'm guessing not many.

And nobody has seen a 10 goal comeback.
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  #10  
Old 09-20-17, 10:32 AM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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It's not necessarily about a "comeback."

I could possibly look back at my HS career and see that 25% of my games could probably have been a mercy ruling. I think the worst was 16-0. What's the difference in 10-0 and 16-0? It's not much. It's not like, "oh no, 6 more goals is so much more embarrassing." While "possession v. mercy" may not hold any water to you (that's why I said personally), it's rough to have teammates chase a ball around knowing there's really no other objective since they won't be scoring. I saw a game outside of Dayton around 5 years ago, Team A got to 12 goals and quit scoring. For 20+ minutes, Team A stood on the ball within their own penalty area because Team B was not going to chase it. No objective to the game, everyone knew the scoring was going to stop at 12 goals. Put in younger players, move positions, do something different but keep playing the game.

But, to go back on the number of games. Let's do some math, 16 games per regular season, 4 seasons, equals to be 64 games. If 25% were mercy, I'd effectively have 16 games affected by a mercy. That means there's a potential to have 8 games taken away from my HS career (32 halves in 16 games, half of those not played because of mercy, 8 total games).

I hate to think that players could be missing out on 8 total games (or more) of their HS careers. That's 640 minutes. The HS career is now 56 games instead of 64. Some areas are already hurting for competitions alone (Kentucky plays more HS games than Ohio, South Dakota plays less than Ohio). Now, we want to reduce it even more?

Overcome the obstacles. Force some scheduling differences -- no team needs to play an out of conference opponent they know will be 10+ scoreline difference. Make soccer better in the area. Invest a little time into it. The school that beat me 16-0 just lost to my alma mater 1-0 last night. Pretty thrilled to see the turnaround. My alma mater also has had a girl's soccer program for around 10 years, earned a shutout and first league win against a specific opponent for the first time ever last week. I know they've had lopsided scorelines before in that matchup.
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  #11  
Old 09-20-17, 10:59 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
It's not necessarily about a "comeback."

I could possibly look back at my HS career and see that 25% of my games could probably have been a mercy ruling. I think the worst was 16-0. What's the difference in 10-0 and 16-0? It's not much. It's not like, "oh no, 6 more goals is so much more embarrassing." While "possession v. mercy" may not hold any water to you (that's why I said personally), it's rough to have teammates chase a ball around knowing there's really no other objective since they won't be scoring. I saw a game outside of Dayton around 5 years ago, Team A got to 12 goals and quit scoring. For 20+ minutes, Team A stood on the ball within their own penalty area because Team B was not going to chase it. No objective to the game, everyone knew the scoring was going to stop at 12 goals. Put in younger players, move positions, do something different but keep playing the game.

But, to go back on the number of games. Let's do some math, 16 games per regular season, 4 seasons, equals to be 64 games. If 25% were mercy, I'd effectively have 16 games affected by a mercy. That means there's a potential to have 8 games taken away from my HS career (32 halves in 16 games, half of those not played because of mercy, 8 total games).

I hate to think that players could be missing out on 8 total games (or more) of their HS careers. That's 640 minutes. The HS career is now 56 games instead of 64. Some areas are already hurting for competitions alone (Kentucky plays more HS games than Ohio, South Dakota plays less than Ohio). Now, we want to reduce it even more?

Overcome the obstacles. Force some scheduling differences -- no team needs to play an out of conference opponent they know will be 10+ scoreline difference. Make soccer better in the area. Invest a little time into it. The school that beat me 16-0 just lost to my alma mater 1-0 last night. Pretty thrilled to see the turnaround. My alma mater also has had a girl's soccer program for around 10 years, earned a shutout and first league win against a specific opponent for the first time ever last week. I know they've had lopsided scorelines before in that matchup.
I agree with a lot of what you say.

Legislating coaching and scheduling? Good luck. You get into some pretty sticky territory then. Just ask the football folks.

You will always have coaches that are unethical. We have 2 teams around here that are both pretty good. One coach has no problem scheduling the little sisters of the poor and racking up wins. He's probably ok with undefeated seasons followed by quick playoff exits. The other goes far and wide to challenge his team, being just fine with some good losses. This guys ok with losing some games in order to hopefully make a longer playoff run. In soccer thats fine because everyone gets in the playoffs. 2 different philosophies. neither against the rules. But 1 will certainly be involved in far more mercy rule type situations.

How do you legislate or communicate to the guy chasing wins and stats to change his ways?

Also, some of the worst beatings are conference games that you have to play twice a year. Those are tough to get around.
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  #12  
Old 09-20-17, 11:28 AM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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There are many people, from various aspects (coach, official, etc.) that have said “the clock IS mercy”, in that, unlike softball / baseball by comparison, the clock WILL eventually hit zero. In those two sports, if team cannot stop the other, a single half-inning at bat could last until the cows come home, and hence the logic behind a mercy rule involving run differential. I agree with those that believe soccer should NOT simply end a game at certain goal differential......there are other ways make adjustments, keep things better ‘under control’ vice having a score resembling a Pointy Ball Final.....IMHO of course.....
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  #13  
Old 09-21-17, 06:13 AM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
I agree with a lot of what you say.

Legislating coaching and scheduling? Good luck. You get into some pretty sticky territory then. Just ask the football folks.

How do you legislate or communicate to the guy chasing wins and stats to change his ways?

Also, some of the worst beatings are conference games that you have to play twice a year. Those are tough to get around.
Yeah, that's where it sucks. Never can get everyone to understand what is best and do right by the kids. Sure, conference games are necessities -- but, if it were up to me conferences in HS would somewhat be removed. Seriously, what good are they except for a "guarantee" in scheduling? Everyone makes postseason, there's no conference tournament. There's nothing riding on a conference in HS (outside of football, since that's the only sport that doesn't include everyone in postseason).

As long as the majority are doing it right, those bad apples could end up looking even worse. Can't ever fix it all. Only thing we can do is try to make it right.
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