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Old 01-10-19, 10:08 AM
HighSchoolFB45 HighSchoolFB45 is offline
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Competitive Balance

Can someone explain competitive balance to the Yappi community? Is it based on single past year success, or recent years success. For example, Trotwood(defending state champs) has a competitive balance number of 1 in 2017, while West Carrollton, a team that went 1-9 in 2017, has a competitive balance number of 8. Then St Vincent St Mary went 7-3 in the regular season but were DIII semi finalist, has a competitive balance number of 120.
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  #2  
Old 01-10-19, 10:28 AM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighSchoolFB45 View Post
Can someone explain competitive balance to the Yappi community? Is it based on single past year success, or recent years success. For example, Trotwood(defending state champs) has a competitive balance number of 1 in 2017, while West Carrollton, a team that went 1-9 in 2017, has a competitive balance number of 8. Then St Vincent St Mary went 7-3 in the regular season but were DIII semi finalist, has a competitive balance number of 120.
Let's start with this:

Past success is not a factor in determining a school's competitive balance adjustment.
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Old 01-10-19, 10:49 AM
guyinahoodie guyinahoodie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighSchoolFB45 View Post
Can someone explain competitive balance to the Yappi community? Is it based on single past year success, or recent years success. For example, Trotwood(defending state champs) has a competitive balance number of 1 in 2017, while West Carrollton, a team that went 1-9 in 2017, has a competitive balance number of 8. Then St Vincent St Mary went 7-3 in the regular season but were DIII semi finalist, has a competitive balance number of 120.
Yeah, you're way off.

Kids that live in your district and attend your school, count as 1. Kids that open enroll, count as more than 1, depending on the sport.

In terms of privates, they count as 1 if they attended one of your parochial feeder schools. Those that did not, count as more than one, depending on the sport.
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Old 01-10-19, 02:13 PM
HighSchoolFB45 HighSchoolFB45 is offline
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Originally Posted by guyinahoodie View Post
Yeah, you're way off.

Kids that live in your district and attend your school, count as 1. Kids that open enroll, count as more than 1, depending on the sport.

In terms of privates, they count as 1 if they attended one of your parochial feeder schools. Those that did not, count as more than one, depending on the sport.
Okay, this makes a lot more sense. Is this why there are private schools with such low enrollment in high divisions, i.e. Akron Hoban?
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Old 01-10-19, 04:17 PM
SchoolDownthehill SchoolDownthehill is offline
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The fact of the matter is the competitive balance does not effect the big schools. It just penalizes the Div II and Div III schools which makes this unconstitutional. If you're going to have a plan , it has to be the same for everyone.
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Old 01-10-19, 09:22 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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It is a scheme to move the private schools to higher divisions. It contains a minor change for OE public’s, that does nothing for them like what it does for privates.
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Old 01-11-19, 06:25 AM
Buckeye Elite Buckeye Elite is offline
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Originally Posted by SchoolDownthehill View Post
The fact of the matter is the competitive balance does not effect the big schools. It just penalizes the Div II and Div III schools which makes this unconstitutional. If you're going to have a plan , it has to be the same for everyone.
Well you can’t go higher then D1 so I don’t understand the argument there. If you have enough to be in D1 then you should be able to compete in D1
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Old 01-11-19, 07:39 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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"Div I schools who have a competitive balance number greater than 100 are ineligible to compete in the post season playoffs".

Creating a rule such as this would give some help in penalizing the Div 1 private schools. To me the real shame is a school such as Troy Christian who has a very small student body that would place them as an average size d7 school, get hit with a competitive balance number that places them in D6, a level they will likely never have any real sucess in, unless they begin to recruit.

I've noticed small private schools located in the Suburbs or a small city tend to draw more students from surrounding school districts therefore causing a higher CB number.
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Old 01-11-19, 09:25 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
It is a scheme to move the private schools to higher divisions. It contains a minor change for OE public’s, that does nothing for them like what it does for privates.
Not really a scheme, but a way to even the playing field.

It negatively affected a local public school in this current cycle where they moved up to an ultra competitive division.


To the OP......you may be a little confused. The original two votes on CP included a tradition factor that absolutely would have taken into account past successes. It was voted down as most believed it to be a horrible idea.


I believe the powers-that-be knew it would get shot down but put it in there anyways for the sole reason that the ultimately wanted the current system in play. By putting the tradition factor in and people hating it, knowing it would get shot down, that the next step down (the current system) would look pretty good to voters and get enacted.
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Old 01-11-19, 07:46 PM
HighSchoolFB45 HighSchoolFB45 is offline
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Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Not really a scheme, but a way to even the playing field.

It negatively affected a local public school in this current cycle where they moved up to an ultra competitive division.


To the OP......you may be a little confused. The original two votes on CP included a tradition factor that absolutely would have taken into account past successes. It was voted down as most believed it to be a horrible idea.


I believe the powers-that-be knew it would get shot down but put it in there anyways for the sole reason that the ultimately wanted the current system in play. By putting the tradition factor in and people hating it, knowing it would get shot down, that the next step down (the current system) would look pretty good to voters and get enacted.
Does it really even the playing field? I get the fact that it helps keep teams like Hoban and TCC out of DIV, but teams shouldn’t be bumped down divisons. Chagrin Falls Kenston has enough kids to be considered a DII school, but their competitive balance number brings them down to DIII. They then beat everyone in the playoffs by at least 20 every game. I think they started bumping schools down divisions to keep the MAC from sweeping DV through DVII. They had a team in the state championship game from 2014-2016. Then Coldwater got bumped down from DV to DVI. Coldwater and Kirtland has the number of kids to compete in DV and have proved they can, so let them. Kenston has the number of kids to compete in DII, so don’t punish DIII by having a bigger school get moved down.
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Old 01-11-19, 07:58 PM
HighSchoolFB45 HighSchoolFB45 is offline
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Somethig also interesting to point out, Colerain had a competitive balance number of 0. Guess what St. Ed’s was? 334!!! No surprise St. Ed’s was the one that won state.
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  #12  
Old 01-11-19, 10:13 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by HighSchoolFB45 View Post
Does it really even the playing field? I get the fact that it helps keep teams like Hoban and TCC out of DIV, but teams shouldn’t be bumped down divisons. Chagrin Falls Kenston has enough kids to be considered a DII school, but their competitive balance number brings them down to DIII. They then beat everyone in the playoffs by at least 20 every game. I think they started bumping schools down divisions to keep the MAC from sweeping DV through DVII. They had a team in the state championship game from 2014-2016. Then Coldwater got bumped down from DV to DVI. Coldwater and Kirtland has the number of kids to compete in DV and have proved they can, so let them. Kenston has the number of kids to compete in DII, so don’t punish DIII by having a bigger school get moved down.
Get a grip.
They dont bump down schools as some conspiracy against the MAC.


Ft Recovery moved up in the MAC and some believe it was because of their additions from outside the district because of CB.

If you noticed, Coldwater got beat by Anna. Anna couldn't get past the first round in D5 so to say they could have competed for the title is short sighted.

They balance out the divisions in terms of the amount of teams. Some on the edge go up because of CB and that was the intention of this for the teams who are getting the kids from outside their district.

It is interesting to see some schools whom my school used to have to play in the playoffs who are now 2-3 divisions BIGGER now that CB has been put into place
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  #13  
Old 01-11-19, 10:56 PM
Redwing Redwing is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighSchoolFB45 View Post
Does it really even the playing field? I get the fact that it helps keep teams like Hoban and TCC out of DIV, but teams shouldn’t be bumped down divisons. Chagrin Falls Kenston has enough kids to be considered a DII school, but their competitive balance number brings them down to DIII. They then beat everyone in the playoffs by at least 20 every game. I think they started bumping schools down divisions to keep the MAC from sweeping DV through DVII. They had a team in the state championship game from 2014-2016. Then Coldwater got bumped down from DV to DVI. Coldwater and Kirtland has the number of kids to compete in DV and have proved they can, so let them. Kenston has the number of kids to compete in DII, so don’t punish DIII by having a bigger school get moved down.
Kenston's CB number is exactly zero. Their enrollment is 381, the minimum # to play in DII is 389. It's close, but why should they, or anyone else, be moved or left in a division where their enrollment #'s don't support it? Not a single team in the state of OH is placed in a division if their adjusted enrollment # doesn't fit the required range.
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Old 01-11-19, 11:02 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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[QUOTE=Redwing;7230116]Kenston's CB number is exactly zero. Their enrollment is 381, the minimum # to play in DII is 389. It's close, but why should they, or anyone else, be moved or left in a division where their enrollment #'s don't support it? Not a single team in the state of OH is placed in a division if their adjusted enrollment # doesn't fit the required range.[/QUOT


Exactly.
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Old 01-11-19, 11:09 PM
Redwing Redwing is offline
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Originally Posted by HighSchoolFB45 View Post
Somethig also interesting to point out, Colerain had a competitive balance number of 0. Guess what St. Ed’s was? 334!!! No surprise St. Ed’s was the one that won state.
St Xavier's CB # was 361, it was good for 2 losses vs Colerain. CB numbers can also be a little deceiving with some smaller privates, as I believe they are only allowed to designate one feeder school, when they likely pull from multiple Catholic grade schools in their area. The kids from those other schools raise their CB #, even those schools are also an obvious natural pipeline for that private Catholic high school every year. I may not have that exactly right, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm not.
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Old 01-12-19, 12:29 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Originally Posted by guyinahoodie View Post
Yeah, you're way off.

Kids that live in your district and attend your school, count as 1. Kids that open enroll, count as more than 1, depending on the sport.

In terms of privates, they count as 1 if they attended one of your parochial feeder schools. Those that did not, count as more than one, depending on the sport.
And you are off as well- each private school is allowed to designate ONE feeder school, then the tiers will count players who attended same catagory of school (Catholic, independent, etc), the highest CB multiplier is for those who come from public to private. That’s the basic version- there are a few pages on it on OHSAAs website if interested.
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Old 01-12-19, 12:35 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Originally Posted by Redwing View Post
St Xavier's CB # was 361, it was good for 2 losses vs Colerain. CB numbers can also be a little deceiving with some smaller privates, as I believe they are only allowed to designate one feeder school, when they likely pull from multiple Catholic grade schools in their area. The kids from those other schools raise their CB #, even those schools are also an obvious natural pipeline for that private Catholic high school every year. I may not have that exactly right, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm not.
Yup- this is correct. For instance a freshman class for Moeller is approx. 220 boys, last year the most that came from any one school was 12. So the other 208 will all have a multiplier. Same for X and all other schools that are only high school. Private like CHCA and Summit have kids in their middle schools that are not multiplied but all others are.
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Old 01-12-19, 10:22 AM
Dumpster Fire Dumpster Fire is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
It is a scheme to move the private schools to higher divisions. It contains a minor change for OE public’s, that does nothing for them like what it does for privates.
Anyone have a listing of OE public schools in order by their CB number? Curious who would be tops on the list and what impact it had on their divisional alignment.

I do not think CB has done much at all to change landscape. Ohio HS football will be ruined if they take this any further and go for a split. I enjoy the current makeup and the public/private playoffs.
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Old 01-12-19, 10:57 AM
HighSchoolFB45 HighSchoolFB45 is offline
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Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Get a grip.
They dont bump down schools as some conspiracy against the MAC.


Ft Recovery moved up in the MAC and some believe it was because of their additions from outside the district because of CB.

If you noticed, Coldwater got beat by Anna. Anna couldn't get past the first round in D5 so to say they could have competed for the title is short sighted.

They balance out the divisions in terms of the amount of teams. Some on the edge go up because of CB and that was the intention of this for the teams who are getting the kids from outside their district.

It is interesting to see some schools whom my school used to have to play in the playoffs who are now 2-3 divisions BIGGER now that CB has been put into place
Just because Anna beat Coldwater doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have competed. It also wouldn’t mean anything if Coldwater beat Anna. Trotwood beat Winton Woods, a DII semi finalist. Does that mean they would have been a DII semi finalist? No. They got beat in the first round DIII. Coldwater’s past success and coaching shows they could have competed.
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Old 01-12-19, 11:59 AM
Redwing Redwing is offline
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Originally Posted by HighSchoolFB45 View Post
Just because Anna beat Coldwater doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have competed. It also wouldn’t mean anything if Coldwater beat Anna. Trotwood beat Winton Woods, a DII semi finalist. Does that mean they would have been a DII semi finalist? No. They got beat in the first round DIII. Coldwater’s past success and coaching shows they could have competed.
It's two separate arguments. Sure, there are teams that could compete and win in a higher division in particular seasons because they have a roster capable of it, but you can't base divisional assignments on that type of arbitrary reasoning. A lot of people made the argument that Hoban could've won DI this year, and maybe they could have, but even their adjusted enrollment is nowhere near the required # to move to DI, so you can't move them just because someone in a boardroom in Columbus thinks they should be. Outside of a special season here or there, they don't have the roster depth to compete in DI on a yearly basis, and the same goes for a lot of smaller schools that are already playing up a division because of CB. No matter how any of us feel about who could compete in what division, you have to have the same set of guidelines for every school to determine divisional assignments
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Old 01-12-19, 12:09 PM
Redwing Redwing is offline
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Originally Posted by Dumpster Fire View Post
Anyone have a listing of OE public schools in order by their CB number? Curious who would be tops on the list and what impact it had on their divisional alignment.

I do not think CB has done much at all to change landscape. Ohio HS football will be ruined if they take this any further and go for a split. I enjoy the current makeup and the public/private playoffs.
I don't know of a source that has that particular list, but you can skim each division pretty quickly here and see every school's CB # and their adjusted enrollment.

https://www.ohsaa.org/Sports-Tournam.../Football-2018
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  #22  
Old 01-12-19, 12:33 PM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is offline
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The beauty of competitive balance is that all sides of the argument generally hate it.
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Old 01-12-19, 02:01 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
The beauty of competitive balance is that all sides of the argument generally hate it.
I dont really hate it myself.

Our school did move down in divisions, and many of our previous rivals moved up a couple.
If it had added the tradition factor that was a terrible idea for the previous versions they ouldnt pass.
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Old 01-12-19, 02:28 PM
zeeman zeeman is offline
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Isn’t competive balance an oxymoron
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Old 01-13-19, 11:53 AM
HighSchoolFB45 HighSchoolFB45 is offline
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Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
The beauty of competitive balance is that all sides of the argument generally hate it.
I don’t really hate it. It’s nice when teams like Hoban are in DII instead of DIV. The problem is that having smaller schools move up requires bigger school to move down. Kenston has to be in DIII, Coldwater and Kirtland have to be in DVI, etc.. there will never be a perfect solution. It’s easier to argue that then keep the private vs public debate going
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Old 01-13-19, 12:15 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by zeeman View Post
Isn’t competive balance an oxymoron
No, the more disparate the ability the less competitive the contest will be.
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Old 01-13-19, 12:25 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
The beauty of competitive balance is that all sides of the argument generally hate it.
Then how did a majority of OHSAA's members pass it?
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Old 01-13-19, 01:06 PM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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Originally Posted by HighSchoolFB45 View Post
I don’t really hate it. It’s nice when teams like Hoban are in DII instead of DIV. The problem is that having smaller schools move up requires bigger school to move down. Kenston has to be in DIII, Coldwater and Kirtland have to be in DVI, etc.. there will never be a perfect solution. It’s easier to argue that then keep the private vs public debate going
All we needed to be in D5 was one boy. ONE. Does Coldwater win D5 last year? Hell no but I think we do compete in region 18.
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Old 01-13-19, 01:58 PM
EagleSE EagleSE is offline
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Originally Posted by SchoolDownthehill View Post
The fact of the matter is the competitive balance does not effect the big schools. It just penalizes the Div II and Div III schools which makes this unconstitutional. If you're going to have a plan , it has to be the same for everyone.
The courts have already ruled that the OHSAA is a private voluntary organization, so the constitution does not come into play.
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Old 01-13-19, 02:37 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by SchoolDownthehill View Post
The fact of the matter is the competitive balance does not effect the big schools. It just penalizes the Div II and Div III schools which makes this unconstitutional. If you're going to have a plan , it has to be the same for everyone.
The plan is the same for everyone.
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