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  #301  
Old 10-16-18, 12:25 PM
king kong king kong is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
The point of the game is to play the game. You shouldn't be allowed to just stand there and not play the game. Why play then? Why this is a difficult concept I have no idea.

Every sport has rules in place to limit stalling or avoiding playing the game as a fundamental understanding of a sport with a winner and loser.

It's very telling if you think this is something that should be allowed, especially in sports with timed endings.
Please enlighten me with what you think is telling about me not liking the idea of a rule that will limit even more from teams ability to force tempo, up tempo or slow tempo?

Won a district title by forcing a bigger, slower team away from the basket by running an open offense 26 feet from the basket. Kid held it, unless the defense guarded, then ran the offense. Its not the offenses job to play to the style the defense wants, yet that is what the shot clock will do.
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  #302  
Old 10-16-18, 12:27 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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And I don't see the rationale of how a shot clock creates bad defensive habits. I would argue the opposite.
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  #303  
Old 10-16-18, 12:30 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king kong View Post
Please enlighten me with what you think is telling about me not liking the idea of a rule that will limit even more from teams ability to force tempo, up tempo or slow tempo?

Won a district title by forcing a bigger, slower team away from the basket by running an open offense 26 feet from the basket. Kid held it, unless the defense guarded, then ran the offense. Its not the offenses job to play to the style the defense wants, yet that is what the shot clock will do.
Never said it was the offenses job to play the defensive style.

I said I don't agree with teams deliberately NOT playing the game as a strategy.

Not hard to understand. You may disagree, but it's not this hard.
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  #304  
Old 10-16-18, 12:41 PM
king kong king kong is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Never said it was the offenses job to play the defensive style.

I said I don't agree with teams deliberately NOT playing the game as a strategy.

Not hard to understand. You may disagree, but it's not this hard.
They are playing the game, not just the way YOU want them to! LOL
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  #305  
Old 10-16-18, 01:42 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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How you think standing and holding a ball is playing the game of basketball is a mystery to me.
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  #306  
Old 10-16-18, 02:36 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
And I don't see the rationale of how a shot clock creates bad defensive habits. I would argue the opposite.
If you know the team has to take a shot in the next 10 seconds you might prepare to rebound instead of playing defense. Especially if you know they are not a great shooting team.
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  #307  
Old 10-16-18, 02:38 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
How you think standing and holding a ball is playing the game of basketball is a mystery to me.
It is a strategy that some use...but pretty rarely. You're upset over what is basically a handful of games every year.
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  #308  
Old 10-16-18, 02:51 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
That's not intentionally not playing the game. Not even close to the same thing. There is game strategy, and there is intentionally not competing. Not sure why you can't grasp the difference.

It's the same as a team that runs sets to chew up most of the shot clock but still gets decent shots. There's nothing wrong with that.
I think what your up against is those who define working the ball through multiple reversals and passes inside then back out as stalling. Some call that not playing, while others realize it is strategy. The problem with the shot clock, is it penalizes strategy for the sake of preventing the very very few cases of standing at the top of the key and dribbling unguarded for six minutes. Even then, I call that entertaining if it boils down to one shot to win the game vs one stop to win.

Just remembered a crazy game where a kid received a pass near half court and did not dribble for over 3 minutes, just stood there. Apparently his job was to take a the last shot off the dribble to try and win the game. He decided to clean the bottom of his shoes to make sure he had better traction as the clock reached about 20 seconds remaining in the game. First lifting one foot and cleaning with a swipe of his hand. Then he shifts the ball to his other arm and proceeded to lift his uncleaned shoe from the floor and swipe it clean simultaneously with the officials whistle calling out the fact he had just committed a traveling violation.
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  #309  
Old 10-16-18, 02:53 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
It is a strategy that some use...but pretty rarely. You're upset over what is basically a handful of games every year.
If he would go to games outside the GCL like we've suggested, maybe he wouldn't get so upset.

If teams are "guilty" of using stalling to try and win, their opponents are equally as guilty of standing back and not making any attempt to play defense and start counts.
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  #310  
Old 10-16-18, 03:03 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
If he would go to games outside the GCL like we've suggested, maybe he wouldn't get so upset.

If teams are "guilty" of using stalling to try and win, their opponents are equally as guilty of standing back and not making any attempt to play defense and start counts.
I have wondered as well why the defense does not get the blame for the game not being played. Come out of that zone, get within guarding range and start a five count. Pretty simple really.

I had the impression North Carolina's four corners offense was partly responsible for the college shot clock?
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  #311  
Old 10-16-18, 03:14 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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How would you react in a select baseball tournament with time limits if the pitcher deliberately took 2-3 minutes between each pitch because his manager knew his team was over-matched. Same concept.

It's just stupid and pointless. Has nothing to do with strategy. It's deliberately not playing the game. Who wants to be a part of that?
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  #312  
Old 10-16-18, 03:59 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
How would you react in a select baseball tournament with time limits if the pitcher deliberately took 2-3 minutes between each pitch because his manager knew his team was over-matched. Same concept.

It's just stupid and pointless. Has nothing to do with strategy. It's deliberately not playing the game. Who wants to be a part of that?
We're not talking about baseball are we? Quit bringing false equivalencies into the discussion.

But the umpires work to avoid that to answer the question.
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  #313  
Old 10-16-18, 04:28 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Had a game about 4 years ago where the home team (1-7) was playing a league rival (9-1)....

The opponent had a history of being sluggish in the first half and blowing doors off the opponent in the second.... It was "one of those nights" however for the opponent and early in the second half it was a one point game in favor of the home team..... 4th quarter starts with the game tied and the opponent starts to make their push.... takes the lead by 5 with 4 mins to go, clearly has the momentum and home team has the ball..... they take the air out of it... Held the ball near the center circle for 2 1/2 minutes, then ran a set that resulted in a three.... got a stop on the other end and held the ball again til they ran a set that resulted in.... another three.... Now up 1 with less than 30 seconds to play, the opponent, not used to being in this situation to a lesser opponent panics and throws the ball away... Now forced to foul to get the ball back, the home team hits their FT's and pulls off the upset by 5 46-41....

Not trying to score turned into a pretty good strategy.
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  #314  
Old 10-16-18, 04:47 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
How would you react in a select baseball tournament with time limits if the pitcher deliberately took 2-3 minutes between each pitch because his manager knew his team was over-matched. Same concept.

It's just stupid and pointless. Has nothing to do with strategy. It's deliberately not playing the game. Who wants to be a part of that?
You do realize the game clock continues to roll so long as the ball is live? So limiting the number of possesions the other team has would be a strategy.

Did some less athletic team ruin your night in the past?

Part of the intrigue of watching the game is upsets. If basketball gets more predictable thawt the more skilled athletic team has almost zero chance of losing, what fun is playing the game at that point?

It's like in track when the winner is pretty much predetermined baring injury or illness. How many people want to watch someone they don't know win as predicted? Sure , perhaps an Olympic athlete, where competition is close, but many high school contests are very predetermined and few attend knowing the eventual outcome. That is a big attraction of basketball, it is less predictable than track, cross country, golf, football and even soccer. Only baseball is less predictable of the major prep sports.
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  #315  
Old 10-16-18, 05:21 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Deliberately not trying to score or limiting possessions is strategy. Rewarding less talented or prepared or fit teams is now strategy. Previous posts pointed out that it is the defense's responsibility to force the action. I have never seen a situation lately where a defense is not guarding the ball and forcing the action. What I am talking about is the unending reverses, double digit screens and three minutes looking for the shot within the offense. I must admit that my view may be skewed by the GCL. I will make a point of going to other games with no GCL opponent and make some fresh observations. Maybe the kids are just not very good anymore.

Last edited by BASESWIMPARENT; 10-16-18 at 05:55 PM.
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  #316  
Old 10-16-18, 06:36 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Deliberately not trying to score or limiting possessions is strategy. Rewarding less talented or prepared or fit teams is now strategy. Previous posts pointed out that it is the defense's responsibility to force the action. I have never seen a situation lately where a defense is not guarding the ball and forcing the action. What I am talking about is the unending reverses, double digit screens and three minutes looking for the shot within the offense. I must admit that my view may be skewed by the GCL. I will make a point of going to other games with no GCL opponent and make some fresh observations. Maybe the kids are just not very good anymore.
Go to any non Catholic city league game and you will see the ball move up and down the floor. You will likely also see shots by the team with the lead when no shot would be preferable, they shoot themselves into trouble. Here in Dayton, Dunbar is a very well coached, fast paced team that will not hold the ball, and I agree, is fun to watch BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL DISCIPLINED.

Myself, I highly enjoy GCL games, and prefer them over any other head to head league games. Yes, they are physical, and more than one game is being played, the floor game and the game inside kids heads in the face of physical pressure.
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  #317  
Old 10-16-18, 06:52 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Deliberately not trying to score or limiting possessions is strategy. Rewarding less talented or prepared or fit teams is now strategy. Previous posts pointed out that it is the defense's responsibility to force the action. I have never seen a situation lately where a defense is not guarding the ball and forcing the action. What I am talking about is the unending reverses, double digit screens and three minutes looking for the shot within the offense. I must admit that my view may be skewed by the GCL. I will make a point of going to other games with no GCL opponent and make some fresh observations. Maybe the kids are just not very good anymore.
All are strategies and styles of play. Just maybe not the style you most prefer. And that is ok. But we shouldn't force high school teams to play the style you prefer either.

Yes, get out from the gcl games and you will probably see the style you would rather watch.
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  #318  
Old 10-16-18, 08:48 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Cool. Because lately it has been Sectional and District tourney games and I have been totally turned off. Dunbar was Mt. Healthy's kryptonite back in the day.
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  #319  
Old 10-17-18, 01:48 AM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Scoring the last 20 years has held relatively steady. Some years it ticks up, some years it goes lower. (high to low +/-5 over the 20 years)

Boys 63 - 49 (winner/loser)
Girls 54 - 40 (winner/loser)

Boys 3pt FGA 22-27 per game with a successful % of 32%-37%
Girls 3pt FGA 18-21 per game with a successful % of 27%-31%


Boys Total fouls per game 31-33
Girls total fouls per game 31-34

Boys FT% 65
Girls FT% 60

Please note there are some years that a spike or drop in those number have occurred... those are one year aberrations that don't reflect the last 20 years.

Only one of the 8 states that use the clock average in the top ten in scoring nationally.
Thank you. The scores of the games that I went to were no where near those and I went to sectional and district final and semi final games. I must have just caught an aberration. I still would like to see a shot clock in High school basketball.
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  #320  
Old 10-17-18, 01:51 AM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Make no mistake...... those decisions were driven by economics, just as it was in 1954.

For those two platforms (NBA and NCAA) the clock was vital to the survival of the product. it was the right move because of what was at stake... (billions)

It's simply not the case in High School Basketball....... and that's my whole point here. The clock was needed to keep fan interest at the other levels.... that interest provided revenue..... again, not the case in High School athletics.

There never has been and never will be a NFHS rule change that takes revenue into consideration. Safety and the competitive balance between the offense and defense are why rules are changed by the NFHS
Again, the NFHS is made up of state high school athletic associations. If they want to make a rule change. A rule change is made. Hence the pitch count with serious MLB influence. I will check out other games and report back my observations.
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  #321  
Old 10-17-18, 01:55 AM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Originally Posted by king kong View Post
You are using Aau as a defense, that is about the only defense there is in Aau. Again, Aau needs teams in its tournaments, if a team feels they are mistreated, they will take their money elsewhere, therefor, Aau has an INVESTED reason to keep them happy. Refs turn a blind eye to infractions, defense is lacking to say the least.

Having coached varsity boys basketball, we didn’t have a style. When we thought we could get out and run, we did. When we couldn’t, we ran sets and quick hitters, but we always stressed defense!
I am using AAU as a defense to the point that it seems to be very popular with the players and my guess it is because that the game mimics what they see in college and in the NBA. I hate all the other nonsense that goes around it. It is ruining amateur athletics.
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  #322  
Old 10-17-18, 06:22 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Again, the NFHS is made up of state high school athletic associations. If they want to make a rule change. A rule change is made. Hence the pitch count with serious MLB influence. I will check out other games and report back my observations.
The NFHS had allowed their member schools to institute pitching regulations long before pitch counts became a concern with MLB. While most states used an innings based formula (Ohio was 10 inning over a 3 day rolling period) some such a Vermont used actual pitch counts back as far as the early 90's. The NFHS Rules Committee started seeking addition data around 2010 with regards to pitch counts and found that the actual count was a more reliable standard to judge overuse of young arms than innings pitched.

That overuse concern, backed by the data (facts) caused the NFHS to mandate states to implement their own pitch count regulations.

Wanting to be like MLB had nothing to do with this change. It was a 100% safety driven directive.
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  #323  
Old 10-17-18, 07:10 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Can we make something clear here, regardless of what side you're on:

Data points, on their surface, are factual statistics. Your data being factual does not make your argument factual. There's a BIG difference.

Just because a data point backs up your argument, it does not prove your argument is right (or wrong). Data is an important piece to any decision, but not the end-all-be-all. There are plenty of stats, anecdotes and evidence on both sides of the argument. Stats, alone, don't tell the complete story.

If the powers that control this decision are JUST looking at statistics, and not talking to a wide range of good coaches and ADs, they're making a mistake.
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  #324  
Old 10-17-18, 08:02 AM
king kong king kong is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Can we make something clear here, regardless of what side you're on:

Data points, on their surface, are factual statistics. Your data being factual does not make your argument factual. There's a BIG difference.

Just because a data point backs up your argument, it does not prove your argument is right (or wrong). Data is an important piece to any decision, but not the end-all-be-all. There are plenty of stats, anecdotes and evidence on both sides of the argument. Stats, alone, don't tell the complete story.

If the powers that control this decision are JUST looking at statistics, and not talking to a wide range of good coaches and ADs, they're making a mistake.
Why do high school students participate in basketball or any other sport in high school in your opinion?
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  #325  
Old 10-17-18, 08:17 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by king kong View Post
Why do high school students participate in basketball or any other sport in high school in your opinion?
you're wasting your time
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  #326  
Old 10-17-18, 08:39 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by king kong View Post
Why do high school students participate in basketball or any other sport in high school in your opinion?
To play and compete...not stand around and hold the ball.
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  #327  
Old 10-17-18, 12:13 PM
king kong king kong is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
To play and compete...not stand around and hold the ball.
To compete is " To strive against another or others to attain a goal, such as an advantage or victory."

Again, you are contradicting yourself, to compete means to go against someone or group to win in a contest. Nothing in there about you dont like the style that is used to achieve this win.
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  #328  
Old 10-17-18, 04:51 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The NFHS had allowed their member schools to institute pitching regulations long before pitch counts became a concern with MLB. While most states used an innings based formula (Ohio was 10 inning over a 3 day rolling period) some such a Vermont used actual pitch counts back as far as the early 90's. The NFHS Rules Committee started seeking addition data around 2010 with regards to pitch counts and found that the actual count was a more reliable standard to judge overuse of young arms than innings pitched.

That overuse concern, backed by the data (facts) caused the NFHS to mandate states to implement their own pitch count regulations.

Wanting to be like MLB had nothing to do with this change. It was a 100% safety driven directive.
The MLB threatened to take over amateur baseball. It was said on the MLB network. Most states did not have a pitch count and there were horror stories. Don't tell me about the NFHS. It is a national organization of state high school athletic associations. Quit trying to give it Federal status.
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  #329  
Old 10-17-18, 04:53 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by king kong View Post
To compete is " To strive against another or others to attain a goal, such as an advantage or victory."

Again, you are contradicting yourself, to compete means to go against someone or group to win in a contest. Nothing in there about you dont like the style that is used to achieve this win.
Thanks Webster.
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  #330  
Old 10-17-18, 09:10 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
The MLB threatened to take over amateur baseball. It was said on the MLB network. Most states did not have a pitch count and there were horror stories. Don't tell me about the NFHS. It is a national organization of state high school athletic associations. Quit trying to give it Federal status.
How was MLB going to take over amateur baseball exactly?
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