Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority  

Go Back   Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority > Boys HS Sports > Boys Basketball

Hello Guest!
Take a minute to register, It's 100% FREE! What are you waiting for?
Register Now
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #271  
Old 10-15-18, 09:18 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,183
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
And college exists for different reasons than the NBA...what's your point?

So they're purpose being different means it won't help the game? There is no correlation between those two things at all.
My point is the same that others have made as well. Just because the higher levels have a shot clock is not justification for it at the lower levels and that is because the purpose of high school athletics is different than the higher levels.

The game is fine.
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Old 10-15-18, 09:23 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,183
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
And college exists for different reasons than the NBA...what's your point?

So their purpose being different means it won't help the game? There is no correlation between those two things at all.

It's not drama, it's objectively looking at the shot clock's impact and realizing that it has been tremendously positive for the game, and with knowing that, coming to the conclusion that it COULD have the same impact in high school. Of course you would reach that conclusion knowing the evolution. All of the evidence points to it....and you're saying NONE of the evidence points to it.

It makes ZERO sense.
You keep editing your posts

You say you have mountains of evidence. So what is that evidence exactly?
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 10-15-18, 09:24 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
You've been telling me for 2 weeks that I've provided nothing but emotional opinions.

Now you say that a shot clock at the higher levels is not evidence, or facts, of the shot clock being something to improve the game, because you and others THINK (opinion) it's not justification for a shot clock in high school.

At a minimum, at least admit that you have definitely downplayed the FACTS on the other side of the argument, and agree that it's certainly evidence that it could work in high school based on that mountain of evidence.

To continue to say we have no facts is really, really weird.
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old 10-15-18, 09:43 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,183
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Yes, the higher levels have a shot clock. That is a fact. And it works for them and you probably like it because of the style of play as a result. But that is the only fact you have presented. Every thing else is emotion and feelings.

The purpose of high school athletics is basically an extension of the classroom. 97% of these kids won't ever play a meaningful basketball game after high school. You may not like the speed or style of a very few high school games each year. But the facts are that the average possession is already less than what the shot clock would be in high school. So what is the need for a proposed shot clock then? You need to articulate your reasons. All we have so far is it will be good for the game (how so?), make the games more watchable (opinion), and the higher levels have them (so what?).
Reply With Quote
  #275  
Old 10-15-18, 09:46 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-31-07
Posts: 3,450
AllSports12 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
There is a reason that the shot clock was started and it was just not for economics.
The current NBA TV contract is worth $24 Billion

The current NCAA TV contract for March Madness alone is $19.6 Billion

and that reason, other than economics is.........
Reply With Quote
  #276  
Old 10-15-18, 09:50 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
Google a really easy article to find about how the shot clock saved the NBA. It had NOTHING to do with economics. It also had NOTHING to do with meaningless stats about volume and timing of shots. They knew it was bad for the game. That was the only reason for the change.

Your stats are factual on the surface, but you're saying they prove your argument. It doesn't work that way.

They're rationale is exactly the rationale the opposing side has been giving you. Long story short, they felt stalling and not competing would "kill their game"...and they were right.

Guess that's not factual either.
Reply With Quote
  #277  
Old 10-15-18, 09:53 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,183
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Google a really easy article to find about how the shot clock saved the NBA. It had NOTHING to do with economics.

They're rationale is exactly the rationale the opposing side has been giving you. Long story short, they felt stalling and not competing would "kill their game"...and they were right.

Guess that's not factual either.
Their game is to make money.

If there is an article I look forward to you sharing the link.
Reply With Quote
  #278  
Old 10-15-18, 09:55 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
It's real easy to find. Google "shot clock saved the NBA". A piece by SI.

And I'm sure you'll be back quoting 10 word increments of the 10,000 word article that are far from the intent and purpose of the piece.
Reply With Quote
  #279  
Old 10-15-18, 10:00 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,183
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
It's real easy to find. Google "shot clock saved the NBA". A piece by SI.

And I'm sure you'll be back quoting 10 word increments of the 10,000 word article that are far from the intent and purpose of the piece.
I would think if that was part of your mountain of evidence you would want to post it.

Guess not.

But no matter what the article says it doesn't change the fact that the NBA and extracurricular sports exist for vastly different reasons.
Reply With Quote
  #280  
Old 10-15-18, 10:04 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
No need to. I know you've already checked it out, and I know you'll act like you never read it and blame it on me for not posting it...you didn't post it, it doesn't exist. That's what people like you do when things perfectly contradict their "perfect" argument.
Reply With Quote
  #281  
Old 10-15-18, 10:25 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,183
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
No need to. I know you've already checked it out, and I know you'll act like you never read it and blame it on me for not posting it...you didn't post it, it doesn't exist. That's what people like you do when things perfectly contradict their "perfect" argument.
You're wrong a lot. I watched a little TV and checked out the scores of local soccer teams in the tournament.

It probably exists. I am not going to seek it out

Perfect argument? Nah. Just much more fact based.
Reply With Quote
  #282  
Old 10-15-18, 10:38 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-31-07
Posts: 3,450
AllSports12 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Their game is to make money.
Bingo....

I had a relative that was part of the Syracuse Nationals in the 50's, so I know a little bit about this...... The league was down to 8 teams and on the verge of collapsing. The Nationals' owner proposed the shot clock, estimating that 24 seconds would produce about 30 shot a quarter and thereby increasing scoring and eliminating the standing around that was becoming prevalent throughout the league.

The clock worked. Scoring was up immediately and the league persevered.

Worked great for a league that depended on butts in the seats and a profit for the owners...... Not the worry of the HS game however.
Reply With Quote
  #283  
Old 10-15-18, 10:58 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post

The clock worked. Scoring was up immediately and the league persevered.
So then the clock did indeed create a better basketball product?

Why then did they accept the 3 point line? There's logistical challenges there as well, as well as the argument that it's not good for teams that can't shoot. Can't compete from the three point line, don't you dare paint that on my court.

It's obvious it's going to continue to gain steam. It's inevitable.

And you can't say it's impossible as plenty of states have implemented it just fine. Guess that's not proof it can work either.
Reply With Quote
  #284  
Old 10-16-18, 12:25 AM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is online now
All Region
 
Join Date: 12-21-16
Posts: 330
BASESWIMPARENT is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The current NBA TV contract is worth $24 Billion

The current NCAA TV contract for March Madness alone is $19.6 Billion

and that reason, other than economics is.........
Because there were instances where North Carolina would go into the 4 corners at the end of the game and UC and Kentucky played a legendary low scoring game where UC held the ball for minutes every time they had possession with no interest in truly making an offensive move. If those two issues had not been addressed, the game would have become a lot less popular and not had as many participants. In a word, it made the game more popular.
Reply With Quote
  #285  
Old 10-16-18, 12:27 AM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is online now
All Region
 
Join Date: 12-21-16
Posts: 330
BASESWIMPARENT is on a distinguished road
So any way, has the scoring gone down in high school games on average over the last 20 or thirty years or am I just watching games that seem that way? Where might I find that stat? Oh and I brought up swimming just to prove that through hard work, you can have a sport or a game that has one set of rules for all levels and ages. It took a long time to make it happen but it happened.
Reply With Quote
  #286  
Old 10-16-18, 06:14 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-31-07
Posts: 3,450
AllSports12 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Because there were instances where North Carolina would go into the 4 corners at the end of the game and UC and Kentucky played a legendary low scoring game where UC held the ball for minutes every time they had possession with no interest in truly making an offensive move. If those two issues had not been addressed, the game would have become a lot less popular and not had as many participants. In a word, it made the game more popular.
Make no mistake...... those decisions were driven by economics, just as it was in 1954.

For those two platforms (NBA and NCAA) the clock was vital to the survival of the product. it was the right move because of what was at stake... (billions)

It's simply not the case in High School Basketball....... and that's my whole point here. The clock was needed to keep fan interest at the other levels.... that interest provided revenue..... again, not the case in High School athletics.

There never has been and never will be a NFHS rule change that takes revenue into consideration. Safety and the competitive balance between the offense and defense are why rules are changed by the NFHS

Last edited by AllSports12; 10-16-18 at 06:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #287  
Old 10-16-18, 07:18 AM
king kong king kong is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 10-14-16
Posts: 204
king kong is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Look... there is something wrong with the high school game the way it is played today. The flow is stagnant, the scoring seems down and it just does not seem as exciting as it once was. I think a shot clock would help encourage more offensive flow. Maybe that is not the solution but something is wrong. There is a reason why AAU is so popular. I abhor what goes on around AAU basketball. I would like basketball to revolve around the state athletic associations. But if they don't play the game like the next level does, they cannot control the nonsense. By the way.. swimming is the same from little guys all the way up to the Olympics.
You are using Aau as a defense, that is about the only defense there is in Aau. Again, Aau needs teams in its tournaments, if a team feels they are mistreated, they will take their money elsewhere, therefor, Aau has an INVESTED reason to keep them happy. Refs turn a blind eye to infractions, defense is lacking to say the least.

Having coached varsity boys basketball, we didn’t have a style. When we thought we could get out and run, we did. When we couldn’t, we ran sets and quick hitters, but we always stressed defense!
Reply With Quote
  #288  
Old 10-16-18, 07:32 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-26-14
Posts: 213
zebrastripes is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by king kong View Post
You are using Aau as a defense, that is about the only defense there is in Aau. Again, Aau needs teams in its tournaments, if a team feels they are mistreated, they will take their money elsewhere, therefor, Aau has an INVESTED reason to keep them happy. Refs turn a blind eye to infractions, defense is lacking to say the least.
The exact reason why you won't find AllSports or me working these games in the offseason.
Reply With Quote
  #289  
Old 10-16-18, 08:07 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-31-07
Posts: 3,450
AllSports12 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
So any way, has the scoring gone down in high school games on average over the last 20 or thirty years or am I just watching games that seem that way? Where might I find that stat? Oh and I brought up swimming just to prove that through hard work, you can have a sport or a game that has one set of rules for all levels and ages. It took a long time to make it happen but it happened.
Scoring the last 20 years has held relatively steady. Some years it ticks up, some years it goes lower. (high to low +/-5 over the 20 years)

Boys 63 - 49 (winner/loser)
Girls 54 - 40 (winner/loser)

Boys 3pt FGA 22-27 per game with a successful % of 32%-37%
Girls 3pt FGA 18-21 per game with a successful % of 27%-31%


Boys Total fouls per game 31-33
Girls total fouls per game 31-34

Boys FT% 65
Girls FT% 60

Please note there are some years that a spike or drop in those number have occurred... those are one year aberrations that don't reflect the last 20 years.

Only one of the 8 states that use the clock average in the top ten in scoring nationally.
Reply With Quote
  #290  
Old 10-16-18, 08:08 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-31-07
Posts: 3,450
AllSports12 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
The exact reason why you won't find AllSports or me working these games in the offseason.
I'll go hungry before I re-involve myself in that cesspool of corruption.
Reply With Quote
  #291  
Old 10-16-18, 08:41 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
Again...it's not ALL about scoring more points and entertainment. You can be a fast break team, and a team that runs alot of sets, and both can be very successful using a shot clock. Both can be beautiful and effective. There is also no reason to think you can't have a focus on defense as well - no clue why that's an assumption here either.

Part of it has to be about creating a better, more well-rounded basketball player. You've seen that result in college players. I don't know you can make the same claim for the high school game when you look at the average player that makes up 95% that will never play again after high school.

IMO, that hurts the game because it develops far less kids to their full potential.
Reply With Quote
  #292  
Old 10-16-18, 08:54 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,183
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Even if you had a shot clock and it helped develop the high school players to their, as you say, "full potential" that isn't going to change the fact that 95+% of them won't play a game past high school. It's not like colleges are going to start taking more kids because high school has a shot clock or something.

I keep coming back to this....if high school had a 40 second shot clock....and the current average possession is less than that. What are you wanting to accomplish with the shot clock?
Reply With Quote
  #293  
Old 10-16-18, 09:40 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Even if you had a shot clock and it helped develop the high school players to their, as you say, "full potential" that isn't going to change the fact that 95+% of them won't play a game past high school. It's not like colleges are going to start taking more kids because high school has a shot clock or something.

I keep coming back to this....if high school had a 40 second shot clock....and the current average possession is less than that. What are you wanting to accomplish with the shot clock?
It eliminates stalling for the sake of not competing. I'm fine with teams running clock as part of strategy at end of games, but there is no reason teams should just be holding the ball just to hold the ball. There definitely should be rules to minimize that abomination.
Reply With Quote
  #294  
Old 10-16-18, 09:42 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,183
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
It eliminates stalling for the sake of not competing. I'm fine with teams running clock as part of strategy at end of games, but there is no reason teams should just be holding the ball just to hold the ball. There definitely should be rules to minimize that abomination.
Go play defense against them. No need for more rules.
Reply With Quote
  #295  
Old 10-16-18, 10:38 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
The point of the game is to play the game. You shouldn't be allowed to just stand there and not play the game. Why play then? Why this is a difficult concept I have no idea.

Every sport has rules in place to limit stalling or avoiding playing the game as a fundamental understanding of a sport with a winner and loser.

It's very telling if you think this is something that should be allowed, especially in sports with timed endings.
Reply With Quote
  #296  
Old 10-16-18, 10:51 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,183
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
The point of the game is to play the game. You shouldn't be allowed to just stand there and not play the game. Why play then? Why this is a difficult concept I have no idea.

Every sport has rules in place to limit stalling or avoiding playing the game as a fundamental understanding of a sport with a winner and loser.

It's very telling if you think this is something that should be allowed, especially in sports with timed endings.
Again, its so few of the games where someone is actually standing there holding the ball for an extended period of time. And you know, its not just the coach of the team holding the ball that is allowing that to happen. The other coach is content with sitting back in zone not pressuring the ball either. Takes two to tango. They can pressure the ball anytime they want to force action too.

And at the end of this game, there will still be a winner and loser. There are no ties in basketball.

Yes, I think this should be allowed in high school basketball. It's not college and not the pros. If a lesser opponent wants to try to slow things down or even hold the ball for several minutes because they feel that gives them their best chance to win against a much better team, why not? High school sports exist for different reasons.
Reply With Quote
  #297  
Old 10-16-18, 10:56 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-08-15
Location: At work
Posts: 3,027
D4fan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Again...it's not ALL about scoring more points and entertainment. You can be a fast break team, and a team that runs alot of sets, and both can be very successful using a shot clock. Both can be beautiful and effective. There is also no reason to think you can't have a focus on defense as well - no clue why that's an assumption here either.

Part of it has to be about creating a better, more well-rounded basketball player. You've seen that result in college players. I don't know you can make the same claim for the high school game when you look at the average player that makes up 95% that will never play again after high school.

IMO, that hurts the game because it develops far less kids to their full potential.
I believe a shot clock develops bad habits on defense. Without the shot clock, the defense has to rotate with every pass wether in man or in zone. With the clock, players learn they can play defense for 20 seconds, then when late in the clock they simply take off if away from the ball knowing a shot has to go up.

A shot clock is hard on the biggest kids, running from post to post and often a coach will instruct the guards to slow down the pace to allow these kids to stay on the floor. College coaches keep that in mind when recruiting and seldom select a kid who is say 6'10" - 300 lbs. These kids can control the paint in a high school game but not if the pace keeps them on the bench most of the game. Even tall kids in good physical condition can not run the floor with the other kids simply due to physical limitations of lung capacity and heart efficiency compared to their smaller teammates.

Feel like I am seeing how many ways I can say the same thing on this issue. Just hate to see potential rules added that limit style and type of athlete who can play the game at the highest level.
Reply With Quote
  #298  
Old 10-16-18, 11:30 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-31-07
Posts: 3,450
AllSports12 is on a distinguished road
Soon to come....

must pass more than you run even though running the ball tends to chew up the clock more than passing... thus keeping the ball out of the hands of the opponent who has a prolific offense... thus shortening the game.... thus giving the inferior team a better opportunity to win the game......


Sound familiar?
Reply With Quote
  #299  
Old 10-16-18, 12:09 PM
?????? ?????? is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 04-27-17
Posts: 122
?????? is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Soon to come....

must pass more than you run even though running the ball tends to chew up the clock more than passing... thus keeping the ball out of the hands of the opponent who has a prolific offense... thus shortening the game.... thus giving the inferior team a better opportunity to win the game......


Sound familiar?
Id kinda like to see the shot clock, but after reading this thread admit it would be tricky with todays technology. Soccer doesn't have shot clock and its the most popular sport in the world? It is preventable if you just go defend.
Reply With Quote
  #300  
Old 10-16-18, 12:21 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Soon to come....

must pass more than you run even though running the ball tends to chew up the clock more than passing... thus keeping the ball out of the hands of the opponent who has a prolific offense... thus shortening the game.... thus giving the inferior team a better opportunity to win the game......


Sound familiar?
That's not intentionally not playing the game. Not even close to the same thing. There is game strategy, and there is intentionally not competing. Not sure why you can't grasp the difference.

It's the same as a team that runs sets to chew up most of the shot clock but still gets decent shots. There's nothing wrong with that.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Who would you like to see get the Canton McKinley Boys Head Basketball Position??? IUDOGS Boys Basketball 270 10-17-18 05:38 AM
OHSAA to Honor 6 Former Greats in Circle of Champions at Boys State Basketball Tourny Yappi Boys Basketball 0 03-20-18 11:08 AM
Wisconsin approves shot clock goshengophers Boys Basketball 127 01-17-18 10:47 PM
OHSAA Basketball and Wrestling State Tournament Tickets Go On Sale January 26 Yappi Boys Basketball 0 12-20-17 02:27 PM
D VII State Semifinal: St. Paul (13-0) vs Minster (9-4) EagleFan Football 130 11-27-17 08:26 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:00 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Registration Booster - Powered By Dirt RIF CustUmz