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  #1  
Old 11-03-16, 03:02 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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GMC & GCLS very cool Question

I was in the middle of an epic (or long winded) reply to a provocative question that Eagle HOP posed when the "GMC rise" thread was closed! So here is Egle HOF's interesting question and my response. I think it's a very interesting topic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle HOF View Post
Colerain, Wayne, st eds, st I, X, Elder, Lasalle, moeller - See what the common theme is with these schools..... Winning. Most of these schools have already played each other this year and they represent more then the lions share of state titles in recent history. Wayne walks through the GWOC and Cards walk through the GMC. Replace any of the remaining schools in the GWOC or GMC and they don't loose a league game for years just like Cards and warriors.


This is an interesting point and I think I disagree. I'm not versed enough on St. Eds and Ignatius nor am I an expert on Wayne & the GWOC but I don't think that any team in the GCLS could have dominated the GMC the way Colerain has.

So let's take Colerain out of the GMC and replace them with the different GCLS teams and consider whether they would win EVERY conference title from 2000 - 2016:

* La Salle: Nope, in fact several GMC teams beat up on LS the last 15 years.

* Moeller: Nope, FF beat Moe in 2000 & 2001 and the Crusaders had some pretty average teams under Bob Crable. Think back to 2009 where Middletown finished THIRD in the GMC but beat Moeller 45 - 10 in the first round of the playoffs. Doubt Moe would have won the GMC that year.

* Elder: Nope, the Panthers had some down years after their back to back State Championships and it's unlikely they would have won the GMC in those years.

* Saint X: The Bombers are the ONLY GCLS team that might have duplicated Colerain's success and that's a BIG if. My guess is that over the course of those 17 years a couple of very talented, athletic GMC teams would have finished ahead of X.

* I'll throw in Wayne and the answer is a big fat NO. While the Warriors would have won the last 3 or 4 GMC titles in the early 2000's FF was better (2000 & 2001) and I know over the years some GMC teams have beat Wayne.

First, this analysis shows just how exceptional Colerain's domination of the GMC has been. It is truly extraordinary. I think the reason Colerain could pull it off and the GCL S teams could not is that Colerain combines some of the best qualities of the GCLS (discipline, expectation of winning, great coaching, sound football fundamentals) with some of the best qualities of the GMC (speed, athleticism, some individually brilliant talents). At least that's my theory you can disagree if you want!
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Old 11-03-16, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle HOF
Colerain, Wayne, st eds, st I, X, Elder, Lasalle, moeller - See what the common theme is with these schools..... Winning. Most of these schools have already played each other this year and they represent more then the lions share of state titles in recent history. Wayne walks through the GWOC and Cards walk through the GMC. Replace any of the remaining schools in the GWOC or GMC and they don't loose a league game for years just like Cards and warriors.


Couldn't agree more....

The problem here is like a hot girl with a big rack that wears baggy clothes and won't look you in the eye, Colerain has some deep seeded self-esteem issues.....In order to quell this issue, the Cardinal faithful try to bolster their image by engaging in "League Enhancement" .........

Unfortunately....it is like putting a bow on a hog..........
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Old 11-03-16, 03:12 PM
Extra Point Extra Point is offline
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First, this analysis shows just how exceptional Colerain's domination of the GMC has been. It is truly extraordinary. I think the reason Colerain could pull it off and the GCL S teams could not is that Colerain combines some of the best qualities of the GCLS (discipline, expectation of winning, great coaching, sound football fundamentals) with some of the best qualities of the GMC (speed, athleticism, some individually brilliant talents). At least that's my theory you can disagree if you want![/QUOTE]

Then why grasshopper, did one of the aforementioned teams knock Colerain off the rice paper every year but one?
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Old 11-03-16, 03:13 PM
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Keep trying to grab the pebble before old, wise man closes hand......
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Old 11-03-16, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I was in the middle of an epic (or long winded) reply to a provocative question that Eagle HOP posed when the "GMC rise" thread was closed! So here is Egle HOF's interesting question and my response. I think it's a very interesting topic!



This is an interesting point and I think I disagree. I'm not versed enough on St. Eds and Ignatius nor am I an expert on Wayne & the GWOC but I don't think that any team in the GCLS could have dominated the GMC the way Colerain has.

So let's take Colerain out of the GMC and replace them with the different GCLS teams and consider whether they would win EVERY conference title from 2000 - 2016:

* La Salle: Nope, in fact several GMC teams beat up on LS the last 15 years.

* Moeller: Nope, FF beat Moe in 2000 & 2001 and the Crusaders had some pretty average teams under Bob Crable. Think back to 2009 where Middletown finished THIRD in the GMC but beat Moeller 45 - 10 in the first round of the playoffs. Doubt Moe would have won the GMC that year.

* Elder: Nope, the Panthers had some down years after their back to back State Championships and it's unlikely they would have won the GMC in those years.

* Saint X: The Bombers are the ONLY GCLS team that might have duplicated Colerain's success and that's a BIG if. My guess is that over the course of those 17 years a couple of very talented, athletic GMC teams would have finished ahead of X.

* I'll throw in Wayne and the answer is a big fat NO. While the Warriors would have won the last 3 or 4 GMC titles in the early 2000's FF was better (2000 & 2001) and I know over the years some GMC teams have beat Wayne.

First, this analysis shows just how exceptional Colerain's domination of the GMC has been. It is truly extraordinary. I think the reason Colerain could pull it off and the GCL S teams could not is that Colerain combines some of the best qualities of the GCLS (discipline, expectation of winning, great coaching, sound football fundamentals) with some of the best qualities of the GMC (speed, athleticism, some individually brilliant talents). At least that's my theory you can disagree if you want!
Well thought out, and no way Wayne could have done it as they lost to Oak Hills at Wayne in 2003 by a score of 21-13. Colerain's GMC Dominance is truly an unreal accomplishment.
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Old 11-03-16, 03:29 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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Colerain only has one state title. Hard to put them in the same discussion as Moeller and St Ignatius. Chuck Kyle will probably get his 12th state title this year.
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Old 11-03-16, 03:36 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra Point View Post

Then why grasshopper, did one of the aforementioned teams knock Colerain off the rice paper every year but one?
Because you are talking about "apples & oranges". On one hand you have the grind of winning a conference versus the one & done finality of the playoffs.

The question being posed is which if any of the GCLS teams could replicate Coelrain's astounding domination of the GMC over the last 17 seasons. IMO none of them could.
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  #8  
Old 11-03-16, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider6309 View Post
Colerain only has one state title. Hard to put them in the same discussion as Moeller and St Ignatius. Chuck Kyle will probably get his 12th state title this year.
NOBODY is putting them in that discussion...NO ONE! I am a die-hard Cardinal fan and I would never put Colerain in that conversation. Don't be ridiculous.

-CardinalsFan
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  #9  
Old 11-03-16, 03:39 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider6309 View Post
Colerain only has one state title. Hard to put them in the same discussion as Moeller and St Ignatius. Chuck Kyle will probably get his 12th state title this year.
That's not the point of this post. I'm not asking folks who has been the best D1 program the last 17 years. I'm asking since 2000, which of the GCLS programs, if any, could replicate Colerain's domination of the GMC and win 17 straight conference champions and lose ONLY one conference game in the process. My answer is none could.

Now I also was careful to exclude Ed's & Ignatius as I'm not as familure with those two programs. I can say that IMO the ONLY HS football program that might have matched Colerain's domination of the GMC during this time would be saint Ignatius.
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Old 11-03-16, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra Point View Post
Then why grasshopper, did one of the aforementioned teams knock Colerain off the rice paper every year but one?
Anything can happen in one game. Don't be dense.

lotr10 - your analysis is spot on. It is truly remarkable in a time when so many big, D1 public schools have equal or much better resources than Colerain. It will be even MORE impressive when they break Princeton's streak of 19 years in a row in 2019!

-CardinalsFan
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Old 11-03-16, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Because you are talking about "apples & oranges". On one hand you have the grind of winning a conference versus the one & done finality of the playoffs.

The question being posed is which if any of the GCLS teams could replicate Coelrain's astounding domination of the GMC over the last 17 seasons. IMO none of them could.
X for sure. Prior to the past 2 seasons, Moeller would as well. On 2nd thought...Moeller has been down the past 2 years but at overall 4-6, they still beat Mason, probably your 3rd best team this year. If X beats Fairfield tomorrow night, I will go with X and Moeller in your scenario. LS and Elder will have a down year or two b/c of their size. LaSalle has had a couple rough years in there, but lately......winning that leagues would be a "walk down the rice paper" for the Lancers....
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Old 11-03-16, 03:45 PM
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Obviously; if X, Elder or Moeller were in the GMC, Colerain would not have won the conference title for the last 17 years.

BTW when was the last time X lost to a GMC team not named Colerain - 1990?
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Old 11-03-16, 03:48 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra Point View Post
X for sure. Prior to the past 2 seasons, Moeller would as well. On 2nd thought...Moeller has been down the past 2 years but at overall 4-6, they still beat Mason, probably your 3rd best team this year. If X beats Fairfield tomorrow night, I will go with X and Moeller in your scenario. LS and Elder will have a down year or two b/c of their size. LaSalle has had a couple rough years in there, but lately......winning that leagues would be a "walk down the rice paper" for the Lancers....
Remember I'm talking about FROM 2000. You know the year Moeller lost to FF in the playoffs and 2001 the year that Moeller lost to FF in the Showdown. Or how about 2009 the year a 3rd place Middies team demolished Moeller 45 - 10 in the 1st round of the playoffs.

Sure Moeller wins the GMC going away in those years that they won the state title or made a deep run in the playoffs. BUT, this is a marathon and NOT a sprint and there are several seasons between 2000 - 2016 that Moeller would not have won the GMC.
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Old 11-03-16, 03:50 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Termite2 View Post
Obviously; if X, Elder or Moeller were in the GMC, Colerain would not have won the conference title for the last 15 years.

BTW when was the last time X lost to a GMC team not named Colerain - 1990?
You don't need to worry about that as I've excluded Colerain from the conference for this exercise.

BTW your statement can be easily disproved for a number of seasons.
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Old 11-03-16, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
You don't need to worry about that as I've excluded Colerain from the conference for this exercise.

BTW your statement can be easily disproved for a number of seasons.
Sure, go for it. how many times have the GMC had undefeated co-champions?
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  #16  
Old 11-03-16, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CardinalsFan View Post
Anything can happen in one game. Don't be dense.

lotr10 - your analysis is spot on. It is truly remarkable in a time when so many big, D1 public schools have equal or much better resources than Colerain. It will be even MORE impressive when they break Princeton's streak of 19 years in a row in 2019!

-CardinalsFan
It is funny how some (not all) GCLS supporters don't want to give Colerain credit for this remarkable achievement. It's like they're jealous that the Cards, who admittedly haven't won the multiple state titles that GCLS teams have, can lay claim to their own pretty impressive accomplishment.
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Old 11-03-16, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
It is funny how some (not all) GCLS supporters don't want to give Colerain credit for this remarkable achievement. It's like they're jealous that the Cards, who admittedly haven't won the multiple state titles that GCLS teams have, can lay claim to their own pretty impressive accomplishment.
You are the one making the claim that a GCL team couldn't do it; which is different than their accomplishment
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Old 11-03-16, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Termite2 View Post
Sure, go for it.
First, I'm only talking about ONE GCLS team in any given year, not all of them.

Second, since your comment included Colerain in the GMC they are in.

So:

* NO GCLS team would have won the GMC in 2004

* No GCLS would have beat out Colerain in 2000 for the GMC

* Not sure about 2001 - 2003

* 2005 if the lone GCLS team was either LS, Moe or Elder Colerain wins the GMC

* 2006 No GCLS team wins the GMC over Colerain

* 2007 if the lone GLCS team was LS, Elder or Moe, Colerain wins the GMC

* 2008 if the lone GCLS team was LS or Moe, Colerain wins the GMC

* 2012 if the lone GCLS team was Elder, X or LS Colerain wins the GMC

* 2013 if the lone GCLS team was Elder, X or LS Colerain wins the GMC

* 2015 if the lone GCLS team was X, Elder or Moe Colerain wins the GMC

I think that's about right.
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Old 11-03-16, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Termite2 View Post
You are the one making the claim that a GCL team couldn't do it; which is different than their accomplishment
And I stick by the claim. Colerain has achieved something special in their domination of the GMC. It's freakish IMO.
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Old 11-03-16, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
And I stick by the claim. Colerain has achieved something special in their domination of the GMC. It's freakish IMO.
Yes, for the GMC; a couple of more years and you can tie Princeton.
I wasn't clear on X, what year since 2000 would X, instead of Colerain in the GMC, not have been GMC champion ?
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Old 11-03-16, 04:26 PM
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I think it is more about consistency with coaching than anything else. Colerain has been fortunate to have Bolden step in behind Coombs and keep the tradition going. I believe Colerain has had very little change in their assistant coaches throughout the years as well. Once you establish a program people want to come play for you and will find a way to get there whether you are a private or public school. Coaching staffs and booster/school support have a lot to do with it.

Moeller has faltered because they haven't been able to keep the train on the track after Coach Faust left. Klonne did a decent job but towards the end of his tenure there were issues that slowed the train down. As for Crable I think anyone in the know knew that was a mistake. Coach Crable loves Moeller but his approach to coaching did not work. Roedenberg, seems to have issues keeping quality assistant coaches. It seems like since he's been there there's been a revolving door in constant motion with the coaching staff.

St. X has probably maintained the best consistency with their head coach but haven't they also had a lot of assistant coaches leave throughout the his tenure, especially after winning his state titles several years ago.

LaSalle's only been truly competitive the past 4 or 5 years. I don't think the LaSalle faithful ever did get fully behind Grippa but I believe Grippa built the program to the point where they were ready to move to center stage like they have.

Elder I just don't get. Ramsey is a tough cookie but it seems like there's always turmoil over there.

Wayne has a coach who's achieved that consistency. I don't know much about their assistant but the appearance is they've maintained stability which has helped them get to the next level.

Then you have Kyle at St. I's. If Faust would have stayed at Moeller he would have out distanced Kyle with state titles.

Part of why Faust was so successful at Moeller is because he surrounded himself with a great staff. They were all young and highly motivated to succeed on the football field. It's fun to be around some of these coaches from back then and hear the stories. You probably hear similar type stories from Princeton's old Coach Mancuso coaching staff and Colerain's Coomb's coaching staff.

Longevity of success all depends on the whole program, who the head coach is and what kind of support the program gets from the administration and fans.
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Old 11-03-16, 04:29 PM
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I'm not sure why people always throw Colerain and Wayne in with the GCL schools and St. Eds and St. I. All the GCL schools, St. I and St. Eds have multiple state titles. I think there is quite a ways to go to makeup that gap. I think Colerain and Wayne's programs are better than the schools in the GCL South (not St. I and St. Eds) but it's going to take so time to close the historical gap.
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Old 11-03-16, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra Point View Post
First, this analysis shows just how exceptional Colerain's domination of the GMC has been. It is truly extraordinary. I think the reason Colerain could pull it off and the GCL S teams could not is that Colerain combines some of the best qualities of the GCLS (discipline, expectation of winning, great coaching, sound football fundamentals) with some of the best qualities of the GMC (speed, athleticism, some individually brilliant talents). At least that's my theory you can disagree if you want!
Then why grasshopper, did one of the aforementioned teams knock Colerain off the rice paper every year but one?[/QUOTE]

It was never the same team. He is talking each team stand alone.
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Old 11-03-16, 04:42 PM
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The argument can be made that the years that Colerain won the Region 4 Title they won the GMC Title AND the GCL Title. Typically the Cards would win the GMC and beat LaSalle in the regular season and then play at least 2 GCL teams to get out of the Region. Hell the winner of the GCL only has to win 3 games.

I think the fact that Colerain is a public school playing similarly public schools (large suburban etc.), has had a coaching changing, and has gone through changes in demographics in the last 16 or so years makes the streak even more remarkable.

The story goes that when Colerain joined the GMC the Commissioner of the League was concerned that Colerain could not compete in Football because the GMC had a number of State Champs (Princeton, Fairfield, Lima Senior) in the previous 15 years.
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Old 11-03-16, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Remember I'm talking about FROM 2000. You know the year Moeller lost to FF in the playoffs and 2001 the year that Moeller lost to FF in the Showdown. Or how about 2009 the year a 3rd place Middies team demolished Moeller 45 - 10 in the 1st round of the playoffs.

Sure Moeller wins the GMC going away in those years that they won the state title or made a deep run in the playoffs. BUT, this is a marathon and NOT a sprint and there are several seasons between 2000 - 2016 that Moeller would not have won the GMC.
In 2000 Moe wins the GMC. Fairfield beating Moeller was a clear upset, it happens. That year Moeller had the highest harbin points in the state and was a number 1 going against number 8 Fairfield and lost...How often does that happen? Moe wins that game 9 time out of 10....Haynes and company got a couple of breaks.

2001 was arguably Moes worst team ever (including this years 4-6 team). So no they would have no chance 2001.

I think Moe would have been in contention winning the GMC in 2009. Probably not good, but Moe was better than 45-10 abuse they took against the middies....
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Old 11-03-16, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MoeDude View Post
I think it is more about consistency with coaching than anything else. Colerain has been fortunate to have Bolden step in behind Coombs and keep the tradition going. I believe Colerain has had very little change in their assistant coaches throughout the years as well. Once you establish a program people want to come play for you and will find a way to get there whether you are a private or public school. Coaching staffs and booster/school support have a lot to do with it.

Moeller has faltered because they haven't been able to keep the train on the track after Coach Faust left. Klonne did a decent job but towards the end of his tenure there were issues that slowed the train down. As for Crable I think anyone in the know knew that was a mistake. Coach Crable loves Moeller but his approach to coaching did not work. Roedenberg, seems to have issues keeping quality assistant coaches. It seems like since he's been there there's been a revolving door in constant motion with the coaching staff.

St. X has probably maintained the best consistency with their head coach but haven't they also had a lot of assistant coaches leave throughout the his tenure, especially after winning his state titles several years ago.

LaSalle's only been truly competitive the past 4 or 5 years. I don't think the LaSalle faithful ever did get fully behind Grippa but I believe Grippa built the program to the point where they were ready to move to center stage like they have.

Elder I just don't get. Ramsey is a tough cookie but it seems like there's always turmoil over there.

Wayne has a coach who's achieved that consistency. I don't know much about their assistant but the appearance is they've maintained stability which has helped them get to the next level.

Then you have Kyle at St. I's. If Faust would have stayed at Moeller he would have out distanced Kyle with state titles.

Part of why Faust was so successful at Moeller is because he surrounded himself with a great staff. They were all young and highly motivated to succeed on the football field. It's fun to be around some of these coaches from back then and hear the stories. You probably hear similar type stories from Princeton's old Coach Mancuso coaching staff and Colerain's Coomb's coaching staff.

Longevity of success all depends on the whole program, who the head coach is and what kind of support the program gets from the administration and fans.
MoeDude, I think you have hit the nail on the head.
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Old 11-03-16, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by nati513 View Post
In 2000 Moe wins the GMC. Fairfield beating Moeller was a clear upset, it happens. That year Moeller had the highest harbin points in the state and was a number 1 going against number 8 Fairfield and lost...How often does that happen? Moe wins that game 9 time out of 10....Haynes and company got a couple of breaks.

2001 was arguably Moes worst team ever (including this years 4-6 team). So no they would have no chance 2001.

I think Moe would have been in contention winning the GMC in 2009. Probably not good, but Moe was better than 45-10 abuse they took against the middies....
What was the score of the 2000 Moeller / Fairfield game ? Did Haynes play defense ? Maybe they win 9 out of 10. Maybe not. Being # 1 in harbins does not change the matchup. Most years FF and many teams would not match up due to the talent level coming into Moeller.

There was another year a heavily favored Moeller team lost to Lakota West at Oxford. Maybe they beat that Lakota West team 9 our of ten. Probably what the 2 upsets to West and Fairfield had in common were Bob Crable as head coach.

Elder has been too up and down and has been upset enough in that timeframe for that to be a stretch.

I'd say St. X due to consistency in good coaching, pool of athletic talent and overall work ethic would be the one possible to make it work.
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Old 11-03-16, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Termite2 View Post
I wasn't clear on X, what year since 2000 would X, instead of Colerain in the GMC, not have been GMC champion ?
Different era in High School Football than when Princeton had its run. A lot more competition.

ST. X had a really down year near the end of Rasso's run. Maybe 2002 or 2003. Their RB blew his knee out in the first game on the new stadium turf and they struggled all year.

And once Colerain makes the Playoffs they usually win at least one game. Can't recall a First Round Loss off the top of my head.
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Old 11-03-16, 04:59 PM
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gocards gocards is offline
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Originally Posted by Wahoo Sam View Post
Different era in High School Football than when Princeton had its run. A lot more competition.

ST. X had a really down year near the end of Rasso's run. Maybe 2002 or 2003. Their RB blew his knee out in the first game on the new stadium turf and they struggled all year.

And once Colerain makes the Playoffs they usually win at least one game. Can't recall a First Round Loss off the top of my head.
Colerain has never lost a 1st round playoff game.
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Old 11-03-16, 05:02 PM
Termite2 Termite2 is offline
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colerain has never lost a 1st round playoff game.
1995
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