Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority  

Go Back   Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority > Boys HS Sports > Boys Basketball

Hello Guest!
Take a minute to register, It's 100% FREE! What are you waiting for?
Register Now
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 12-03-17, 04:11 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 01-28-04
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 19,107
Bennies'01 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Bennie01 - don't be so sure that the public schools are not recruiting - even Euclid. Seems Euclid has a few Joe's players, a kid who left Garfield to play football and another kid from Lutheran East. I'm sure that is just coincidence. Wake up.
My statement was a two-parter. Of course it's a free-for-all in NEO high school hoops these days which is why divisions based on enrollment no longer make sense.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-03-17, 04:22 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 01-28-04
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 19,107
Bennies'01 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
Euclid is a town of 50,000 people with incredible youth programs (Panther Youth Football and Panther Hoops). Additionally they get 10 to 20 superb athletes in mid high school form that Rotsky brings in every year from other school districts. Unlike VASJ, tuition is FREE for residents. All you got to do is live in the city limits. If Euclid High's athletic and academic programs can't keep those quality kids in their system, it's their own fault. Nobody is feeling sorry for them but you. Hopefully TJ Kwas is one piece of the long term puzzle in turning that around.
I don't feel sorry for them. The point is that VASJ is equally as capable of finding 8-10 talented basketball players as Euclid, and enrollment size is an irrelevant factor. Last year, Euclid played in Division I and was eliminated by juggernaut Garfield Heights. VASJ also played a Garfield on their way to a state title--but they were from Garrettsville, not exactly a hoops hotbed. Yet VASJ fan points to "tradition" of winning in lower divisions when taunting Euclid.

Also, let's not kid ourselves, a huge chunk kids enrolled at VASJ, for a variety of reasons, pay little or nothing in the way of tuition, including many athletes who come from a much larger geographic area than the 10.63 square miles that comprises the Euclid City School District.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-03-17, 06:36 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-08-13
Posts: 2,285
Bball216 is on a distinguished road
Bennie is no different. They actually pull from a much larger area than VASJ. They to have benefitted from playing in lower divisions. Home of Champions sound familiar ? Joe's does have a tradition rich sports history. They are also the ONLY school to ever win a state championship in every division of basketball. They did not choose to be the size they are. The Vikings play all comers in basketball and can hold their own. It is obviously easier in basketball because you don't need as many players. So when you say stuff about VASJ it applies directly to Benedictine as well. We got moved up to D2 and that will make it much tougher to reach state for another record 6th time - but they are not complaining. The Vikings will contend for a state title in the near future - if not this year. There is a lot of young elite talent. The question is how many titles in any sport will Benny compete for now that they cannot pick on lower division schools. It will be interesting to see how long the Bengals stay in the tough Euclid D1 district. I'm guessing one or two rounds.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-06-17, 06:59 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 01-28-04
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 19,107
Bennies'01 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Bennie is no different. They actually pull from a much larger area than VASJ. They to have benefitted from playing in lower divisions. Home of Champions sound familiar ? Joe's does have a tradition rich sports history. They are also the ONLY school to ever win a state championship in every division of basketball. They did not choose to be the size they are. The Vikings play all comers in basketball and can hold their own. It is obviously easier in basketball because you don't need as many players. So when you say stuff about VASJ it applies directly to Benedictine as well. We got moved up to D2 and that will make it much tougher to reach state for another record 6th time - but they are not complaining. The Vikings will contend for a state title in the near future - if not this year. There is a lot of young elite talent. The question is how many titles in any sport will Benny compete for now that they cannot pick on lower division schools. It will be interesting to see how long the Bengals stay in the tough Euclid D1 district. I'm guessing one or two rounds.
Benedictine and VASJ (and all schools like them) belong in Division I for basketball. In reality there probably shouldn't even be divisions for hoops, but as long as there are, enrollment should not be the driving factor as it is now. We'll see how Benedictine does at Euclid, though the district is obviously much stronger than anything in Division II so they may not make it too far.

In regards to Benedictine's nickname, "Home of Champions," it is based on the school's football prowess, which includes years of domination and championships won against larger schools. But as you correctly pointed out, it is much more difficult to use geographic and enrollment advantages to develop dynasties in football. After all, football is a sport that requires building a large roster of talented, athletic, and coachable players.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-07-17, 07:11 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-08-13
Posts: 2,285
Bball216 is on a distinguished road
While I agree your moniker Home of Champions is based on football - it was because of domination in lower divisions. The same argument you use for VASJ in basketball can be used for Benedictine in football. They were winning state titles in D2 and D3 if I'm not mistaken - not D1 with the Ed's, Iggy, St.X and other powerhouses of the world. I totally disagree that VASJ and schools like them should be D1 in basketball. The D1 schools have more kids in 9th grade than Joe's has in the whole school. D2 is going to be plenty tough for Joe's as the two premier programs in Ohio currently (VASJ and SVSM) reside there. You will find out this year when you watch your Bengals what a big leap it is from D2 to D1.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-07-17, 10:37 AM
brusharc1986 brusharc1986 is offline
Junior Varsity
 
Join Date: 09-06-17
Posts: 27
brusharc1986 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
While I agree your moniker Home of Champions is based on football - it was because of domination in lower divisions. The same argument you use for VASJ in basketball can be used for Benedictine in football. They were winning state titles in D2 and D3 if I'm not mistaken - not D1 with the Ed's, Iggy, St.X and other powerhouses of the world. I totally disagree that VASJ and schools like them should be D1 in basketball. The D1 schools have more kids in 9th grade than Joe's has in the whole school. D2 is going to be plenty tough for Joe's as the two premier programs in Ohio currently (VASJ and SVSM) reside there. You will find out this year when you watch your Bengals what a big leap it is from D2 to D1.
Uh, I'm not sure you are clear on the history of Cleveland high school sports. Benedictine has been known as the Home of the Champions since the 1950s based upon years and years of competition with other local teams in The Charity football games and beyond for over 75 years. At the inception of this phrase there were no divisions.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-07-17, 05:23 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-08-13
Posts: 2,285
Bball216 is on a distinguished road
That is fair enough. That is long before my time. I just know they still use that moniker and have won state championships in recent time - but against lower divisions.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-08-17, 11:57 AM
brusharc1986 brusharc1986 is offline
Junior Varsity
 
Join Date: 09-06-17
Posts: 27
brusharc1986 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
That is fair enough. That is long before my time. I just know they still use that moniker and have won state championships in recent time - but against lower divisions.
It's important you know that there are a lot of things before your time. That's key for you.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-08-17, 05:24 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 01-28-04
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 19,107
Bennies'01 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
While I agree your moniker Home of Champions is based on football - it was because of domination in lower divisions. The same argument you use for VASJ in basketball can be used for Benedictine in football. They were winning state titles in D2 and D3 if I'm not mistaken - not D1 with the Ed's, Iggy, St.X and other powerhouses of the world.
This is not accurate. The "Home of Champions" moniker has been around since Benedictine's days in the old Senate League and is in recognition of dominance in City Championship Games in the late '40s through the late '60s. Many of the schools in that league were much larger than Benedictine, and yes, St. Ignatius and Cathedral Latin (a powerhouse during the time) were both members.

Though I will concede that all of Benedictine's state championships were won in the middle divisions, please keep in mind that building a dynasty in football requires more than a few outstanding players. Several dozen at least are needed, even in D2-D4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
I totally disagree that VASJ and schools like them should be D1 in basketball. The D1 schools have more kids in 9th grade than Joe's has in the whole school. D2 is going to be plenty tough for Joe's as the two premier programs in Ohio currently (VASJ and SVSM) reside there. You will find out this year when you watch your Bengals what a big leap it is from D2 to D1.
Again, basketball strength is only marginally connected with school size. All it takes is a few great players to turn a program into a powerhouse that can beat anyone in the state. It's exactly why during the State Final Four weekend you'll often hear legitimate conversations regarding whether the D2 or D3 champion can beat the much larger D1 champion. Or are you arguing that in most years the D1 champion, due to school size and nothing else, must be the best in the state in any division?
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-08-17, 07:14 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 08-25-10
Posts: 648
MugnMaul78 is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by brusharc1986 View Post
It's important you know that there are a lot of things before your time. That's key for you.
While BBALL might not be an expert on Benedictine's mythical (poll based) state football championships of the 40's, 50's, and 60's he knows more than you think.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 12-08-17, 11:13 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-08-13
Posts: 2,285
Bball216 is on a distinguished road
You cannot expect small schools to always have enough basketball players to be elite. You get special classes that make you good for a few years here and there but even Bennies01 has to admit - it's really tough nowadays to maintain that. You have graduation, transfers, etc that change the rosters of good teams almost yearly. You cannot expect a school the size of VASJ to compete with the elite D1 schools year in and year out. That is not fair to the kids at schools like Joe's , Benny, Lake, etc. Everybody is worried about making things fair for the underperforming pubic schools - but the rules need to be fair to the private school kids as well. Maybe you will feel differently after the Bengals get whacked early in the D1 playoffs when they instead should have a serious chance to reach Columbus in D2 this year - the division they belong in. How did that Garfield Heights game go today - that is D1 near its best. I heard Meechie dropped a 50 spot on you guys - and he is a freshman. His cousin will be there next year - along with Gaffney. Do you still feel all the privates should be D1 ? Or do you feel that your kids who work hard should at least have a punchers chance in a division more fitting to your size.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-09-17, 06:07 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 01-28-04
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 19,107
Bennies'01 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
While BBALL might not be an expert on Benedictine's mythical (poll based) state football championships of the 40's, 50's, and 60's he knows more than you think.
They only won one state poll title (1957). All of their City Championships were won on the field.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-09-17, 06:23 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 01-28-04
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 19,107
Bennies'01 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
You cannot expect small schools to always have enough basketball players to be elite. You get special classes that make you good for a few years here and there but even Bennies01 has to admit - it's really tough nowadays to maintain that. You have graduation, transfers, etc that change the rosters of good teams almost yearly. You cannot expect a school the size of VASJ to compete with the elite D1 schools year in and year out. That is not fair to the kids at schools like Joe's , Benny, Lake, etc. Everybody is worried about making things fair for the underperforming pubic schools - but the rules need to be fair to the private school kids as well.
But in basketball it's not really about "enough." It's about having 8-10 solid players, with a few of them being truly outstanding. Almost any open-enrollment school in a large metropolitan area, almost regardless of size, can manage to put together that kind of roster, particularly those schools with a great tradition where players want to play. On a year-to-year basis, VASJ and a few other smaller schools can compete with just about any school in D1. If we're worried about fairness, then you can't expect small rural public schools to compete with elite urban private schools, and yet some schools have made a living beating up on the rural schools in the playoffs for years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Maybe you will feel differently after the Bengals get whacked early in the D1 playoffs when they instead should have a serious chance to reach Columbus in D2 this year - the division they belong in. How did that Garfield Heights game go today - that is D1 near its best. I heard Meechie dropped a 50 spot on you guys - and he is a freshman. His cousin will be there next year - along with Gaffney. Do you still feel all the privates should be D1 ? Or do you feel that your kids who work hard should at least have a punchers chance in a division more fitting to your size.
Yes, because Garfield Heights is one of the best teams in the state. Benedictine can probably compete with 85-90% of D1 schools in Ohio. And barring any injuries to their top players, Benedictine will have more than a puncher's chance to win the Euclid district. Mentor, Cleveland Heights, Solon, and Brush are all solid, but I don't necessarily see any of them being an automatic favorite over Benedictine at this point. But then again, that's what it's about when you're competing at the highest level. There are no easy games when you get to the district level of the playoffs. I want that for Benedictine, I believe they can and will rise to the occasion. I don't want them handed any trophies like fans of some schools apparently do.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-09-17, 07:13 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-08-13
Posts: 2,285
Bball216 is on a distinguished road
Bennie - for every team like VASJ and Benny there is other schools like Trinity, Gilmour and many other schools that would get slaughtered in D1. You just can't punish a few schools. Either the rule effects all schools or no schools. You can't say because VASJ had success in hoops that they are D1 when their school is 1/10 the size of some D1 schools. What about the rest of the sports that they are not very good in ? Are they D1 as well ? Should the whole school be punished because they have a great hoops program. Does our 6 person wresting team have to compete against Brecksville and Ed's ? Get real. Just because you have this dislike for Joe's and their success in hoops does not mean they should be D1 to please you. Benny will see how tough schools like Solon, Cleveland Heights and Mentor are. I figured you would like to see your team have a fair chance - I apologize I was mistaken.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-10-17, 03:46 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 01-28-04
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 19,107
Bennies'01 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Bennie - for every team like VASJ and Benny there is other schools like Trinity, Gilmour and many other schools that would get slaughtered in D1.
Funny you should mention Trinity and Gilmour, as nothing has stopped each of these schools from having dominant showcase programs in recent years and years past that could and did compete with the biggest schools in the state. Think ice hockey and girls basketball, and they did it the same way that VASJ and SVSM have done it: Through building talented rosters of individuals that were almost always developed elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
You just can't punish a few schools. Either the rule effects all schools or no schools. You can't say because VASJ had success in hoops that they are D1 when their school is 1/10 the size of some D1 schools. What about the rest of the sports that they are not very good in ? Are they D1 as well ? Should the whole school be punished because they have a great hoops program. Does our 6 person wresting team have to compete against Brecksville and Ed's ?
Glad we're in agreement. Though again, the point is that in basketball, school enrollment doesn't matter when you bring in enough talent from a high population region to fill out a small roster that can compete with anybody. For individual sports like wrestling, there's a strong argument that there shouldn't be divisions at all. Why should a great wrestler at a small school be deprived of competing against the best from larger schools? I think if you must give out "team" titles for individual sports (which is a ridiculously inaccurate science), then it should probably be calculated after all of the best individuals regardless of school size have competed against each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Benny will see how tough schools like Solon, Cleveland Heights and Mentor are. I figured you would like to see your team have a fair chance - I apologize I was mistaken.
No, you assumed that I don't have the confidence in Benedictine's basketball team this year to compete against the best as you apparently lack confidence in VASJ being able to play with the big boys in the postseason. Strange that I--an apparent "Joe's hater" as labelled by you--seem to have a stronger belief in your program to compete against the best in the state than you do.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-11-17, 07:09 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-08-13
Posts: 2,285
Bball216 is on a distinguished road
It's not question of competing this year it's the idea that you can do it every year. Both schools have solid squads this year so it's a non issue. That will not always be the case. You have not heard anybody complain about Joe's being D2 - have you. The Vikings accept the challenge. The question was fairness. While schools like Benny, Joe's and others got moved up schools who have had success like SVSM and Lake stayed put. That is the head shaker. I'm confident that this year and the next several coming up Joe's will hold their own.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-11-17, 08:13 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 11-17-14
Posts: 1,554
Irish60 will become famous soon enough
Interesting conversation, but its the same one we have every year. And it always seems like VASJ and STVM are at the center of it; which is understandable. I absolutely agree that the size of the school is a far more important metric in football than in basketball. But the problem with Bennies equation is that it would be very difficult for OHSAA to write a coherent policy that would address it. You can't simply write a rule saying VASJ and STVM move up. What about Trotwood Madison or Dayton Dunbar? Would they be included in this metric, too? It's fine (and fair) to say a handful of teams from smaller schools can compete in D1, so we are moving them up. But what about in years where those teams are rebuilding? Do they get a pass? And who makes that determination? What about a team like John Glenn a couple of years ago who took out my Irish in a great basketball game? Would they have been moved up by OHSAA for that one year? And who exactly at OHSAA would make that decision?

Again, I agree that something could be done. I can certainly understand the frustration of other teams in STVM's district. Looking at the Irish schedule, in many years they will have played 15+ teams likely better than any team they will face until they get to the Final Four. But whenever you start making these types of rules and decisions, a whole Pandora's Box can be opened. The OHSAA likes to rely on enrollment because it is easily quantifiable; and they can't even get THAT right! But an enrollment-only metric is also lazy!

So what is the answer? Here are some options. (1) I think enrollment HAS to be part of the metric; but I always suggest strength of schedule, too. If STVM is playing a D1 schedule, then they should play in the D1 tournament.
I don't have an issue with that. (2) A success-based metric. Move the winners (or the final four) up a division the following year. If they don't repeat, then they go back down to their regular classification. The problem there is that if all the talent from a state champ (take John Glenn, for example) were to graduate after the title year, then the next year's class would be put at a disadvantage. However, again using John Glenn as an example, that team wasn't going to advance to the state tournament whether they were in D2 or D1 the year following their title run. So how big of a disadvantage would that really be? (3) Allow teams to choose to move up a division. This would put the onus on the coaches to show whether a title or competition is more important to them. I have no idea what Coach Dru would do if given the choice to play in the D1 or D2 tourney. I'd like to think he'd choose to play up; even if for no other reason than to avoid getting grilled for NOT playing up!

One final note, I am a little put off by the thought that playing D2 is considered "playing down". There may be more good D1 programs; but there are a lot of excellent D2 programs in Ohio. If you just look at the last two state tournaments, you could easily (and quite justifiably) argue the best two games in each of those tourneys were the STVM-John Glenn final 2 years ago, and the STVM-Trotwood semi last year. Any of those teams could make a legitimate case for being the best team in the State that year. So let's not dismiss D2 quite so readily!

Last edited by Irish60; 12-11-17 at 09:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-11-17, 02:13 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 11-17-14
Posts: 1,554
Irish60 will become famous soon enough
I am going to start a new thread for this Division Assignment topic so the discussion doesn't get limited to VASJ/Euclid thread.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-11-17, 05:38 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 01-28-04
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 19,107
Bennies'01 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
It's not question of competing this year it's the idea that you can do it every year. Both schools have solid squads this year so it's a non issue. That will not always be the case. You have not heard anybody complain about Joe's being D2 - have you. The Vikings accept the challenge. The question was fairness. While schools like Benny, Joe's and others got moved up schools who have had success like SVSM and Lake stayed put. That is the head shaker. I'm confident that this year and the next several coming up Joe's will hold their own.
SVSM and VASJ have consistently competed at the highest levels in their respective divisions for a good chunk of the past few decades. In many of those years, each could have beaten just about any D1 school in the state.

In regards to who got moved up and who didn't, remember that the OHSAA had a formula and not every school was automatically moved up. It wasn't just random.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Season opener pool tournament Rocketwrestling Wrestling 0 11-26-17 08:38 PM
Week 9: Mentor (7-1) vs Euclid (7-1) cardzfan1234 Football 15 10-21-17 09:36 AM
Coshocton D-3 District Rankings (off season #3) McClearn7 Wrestling 1 09-21-17 09:00 PM
Coshocton D-3 District Rankings (off season #1) McClearn7 Wrestling 3 05-30-17 07:19 AM
TV Shows Cancelled/Renewed Yappi General Board 24 05-16-17 08:04 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:30 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Registration Booster - Powered By Dirt RIF CustUmz