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  #61  
Old 11-14-17, 04:47 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
Agreed, but it was more to the point that it's not far fetched to have a setup like that.

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No it's not.

But i still think they would try to pay attention to travel and not have any 3-4 hour drives if they weren't needed.
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  #62  
Old 11-15-17, 10:03 AM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Also keep in mind those club kids choose to make those long trips. You are making this mandatory. Soccer is expensive enough, right?

Also, that's Alaska. that's a complete outlier.
Again, neutral sites do not make ANY 3-5 hour travel mandatory. Medina played Sylvania Northview in Sandusky. See how that works? Columbus St. Francis DeSales played Alexander at Bloom-Carroll. Mansfield Christian played Ottawa Hills at Lima Senior, which saved 15-20 minutes of travel AND was out of the way for both schools.

It may have been Alaska, but it's rather common. There's tons of travel times for schools around the country. It's rather spread out, if you didn't know. Kansas has like 75 schools in the whole state with soccer. South Dakota has 30ish. North Dakota has like 15. Imagine those travel times just for regular season games. A random draw in final 16 (or 8) is not that hard to do. It's not adding that much travel, if any.

Seeing new match-ups would be awesome. Seeing opportunities for kids who may not have the same in its current structure would be awesome (example: anyone from southeastern Ohio who gets paired with DeSales, seemingly never wins).
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  #63  
Old 11-15-17, 05:12 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
Again, neutral sites do not make ANY 3-5 hour travel mandatory. Medina played Sylvania Northview in Sandusky. See how that works? Columbus St. Francis DeSales played Alexander at Bloom-Carroll. Mansfield Christian played Ottawa Hills at Lima Senior, which saved 15-20 minutes of travel AND was out of the way for both schools.

It may have been Alaska, but it's rather common. There's tons of travel times for schools around the country. It's rather spread out, if you didn't know. Kansas has like 75 schools in the whole state with soccer. South Dakota has 30ish. North Dakota has like 15. Imagine those travel times just for regular season games. A random draw in final 16 (or 8) is not that hard to do. It's not adding that much travel, if any.

Seeing new match-ups would be awesome. Seeing opportunities for kids who may not have the same in its current structure would be awesome (example: anyone from southeastern Ohio who gets paired with DeSales, seemingly never wins).
The States you used as examples are probably at or near the bottom of the barrel in HS Soccer talent overall.
Your talking taking a Top 8 State and for really not a good reason sending Regional Qualifying teams all over the State for no good reason.
Sounds like you must be a Federal employee.
If it ain't broke fix it until it is.
Plus you also have to take into consideration the most important people to HS Soccer the parents. Most of these parents have spend countless hours on the road for years at Tournaments , Clinics, and Regular Season games. Their kids get to HS and maybe once if lucky or twice make a Regional Tournament and they have to worry about driving 2-3 hours to see their kid in a once in a life time chance to compete to go to a State Final. especially if its a Weekday game.
Your State Semi's if they are a draw could force a Parent from say Dayton / Cincy / Cleveland drive 2-3 hours then if they win drive over / down or up to Columbus all in a few days.
Classmates, Fans, Relatives all in the same boat. Your potentially killing or halving attendance at these games.

Last edited by TCSoup; 11-15-17 at 05:37 PM..
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  #64  
Old 11-15-17, 09:26 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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I worked the G3 Semi at Perkins HS in Sandusky on the 7th. It was almost exactly equal distant for the two teams, Liberty Benton & Kirkland......about 1.5 hours drive for each. All things considered.......above & beyond driving considerations......it was a perfect choice. Excellent facility, cooperative/supportive/helpful to both teams & the officiating crew; great hosts.

When talking about schools hosting District Finals, Regionals, and State Semi’s we all must remember that those school must be willing to host, they have to ‘throw their hat into the ring’. There are numerous HS throughout NE Ohio that have excellent facilities, etc. that simply do not choose to make themselves available. Thus, to some degree, the OHSAA has only so many potential hosts to pick from.
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  #65  
Old 11-16-17, 07:39 AM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCSoup View Post
The States you used as examples are probably at or near the bottom of the barrel in HS Soccer talent overall.
Your talking taking a Top 8 State and for really not a good reason sending Regional Qualifying teams all over the State for no good reason.
Sounds like you must be a Federal employee.
If it ain't broke fix it until it is.
Plus you also have to take into consideration the most important people to HS Soccer the parents. Most of these parents have spend countless hours on the road for years at Tournaments , Clinics, and Regular Season games. Their kids get to HS and maybe once if lucky or twice make a Regional Tournament and they have to worry about driving 2-3 hours to see their kid in a once in a life time chance to compete to go to a State Final. especially if its a Weekday game.
Your State Semi's if they are a draw could force a Parent from say Dayton / Cincy / Cleveland drive 2-3 hours then if they win drive over / down or up to Columbus all in a few days.
Classmates, Fans, Relatives all in the same boat. Your potentially killing or halving attendance at these games.
I just gave prime examples of games that DID already take place. Everyone has heard the complaints about match-ups anytime in the postseason. They range from: terrible neutral site venue, unfair seeding, don't get to see the best teams because X-school has an easier avenue, etc.

A few years ago I saw a DeSales v. Carroll game get a "neutral" venue of Bellbrook (I believe that's where it was). Make one team drive while other gets to go in own back yard. Different sport, but recently Boone County HS (Kentucky) had a first-round (gasp!) postseason football game against in Paducah, a 4.5 hour drive! I really can go on with relative distances in any state and any school.

For the most part, you can get a match-up of anywhere in the state and "meet in the middle" for 1.5-2 hour drive. That's simple. It was probably an hour-plus drive for the Anderson v. Beavercreek match this fall, traffic between the two can be a bear. An extra half-hour is not a big deal if they now drive to Columbus to play a different opponent. Then, there's the possibility of seeing an Anderson v. Beavercreek state final! Now, let's talk about attendance to that one...
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  #66  
Old 11-16-17, 08:25 AM
getagrip getagrip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
I just gave prime examples of games that DID already take place. Everyone has heard the complaints about match-ups anytime in the postseason. They range from: terrible neutral site venue, unfair seeding, don't get to see the best teams because X-school has an easier avenue, etc.

A few years ago I saw a DeSales v. Carroll game get a "neutral" venue of Bellbrook (I believe that's where it was). Make one team drive while other gets to go in own back yard. Different sport, but recently Boone County HS (Kentucky) had a first-round (gasp!) postseason football game against in Paducah, a 4.5 hour drive! I really can go on with relative distances in any state and any school.

For the most part, you can get a match-up of anywhere in the state and "meet in the middle" for 1.5-2 hour drive. That's simple. It was probably an hour-plus drive for the Anderson v. Beavercreek match this fall, traffic between the two can be a bear. An extra half-hour is not a big deal if they now drive to Columbus to play a different opponent. Then, there's the possibility of seeing an Anderson v. Beavercreek state final! Now, let's talk about attendance to that one...
No matter who the State Champ ends up being, they have to face someone in early rounds, and rightly or not, those early opponents will often think they deserved to be in the finals.
I don't have players anymore, but no system will ever satisfy everyone. The current setup works pretty well, and other than the extraordinary Summit team of 2016, produces competitive Championship games at all levels. DI had OT in both the semis and finals this year. Can't get more balanced than that.
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  #67  
Old 11-16-17, 08:50 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
Again, neutral sites do not make ANY 3-5 hour travel mandatory. Medina played Sylvania Northview in Sandusky. See how that works? Columbus St. Francis DeSales played Alexander at Bloom-Carroll. Mansfield Christian played Ottawa Hills at Lima Senior, which saved 15-20 minutes of travel AND was out of the way for both schools.

It may have been Alaska, but it's rather common. There's tons of travel times for schools around the country. It's rather spread out, if you didn't know. Kansas has like 75 schools in the whole state with soccer. South Dakota has 30ish. North Dakota has like 15. Imagine those travel times just for regular season games. A random draw in final 16 (or 8) is not that hard to do. It's not adding that much travel, if any.

Seeing new match-ups would be awesome. Seeing opportunities for kids who may not have the same in its current structure would be awesome (example: anyone from southeastern Ohio who gets paired with DeSales, seemingly never wins).
Most teams paired with DeSales aren't winning. Is it really super exciting if they beat a team from NE Ohio 5-0 as opposed to a team from SW or SE Ohio? No.

Comparing us to Kansas or North Dakota in terms of travel or population density is absurd.

Clearly you are no longer talking to me but pushing your own agenda.

Moving on.
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  #68  
Old 11-16-17, 09:21 AM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Most teams paired with DeSales aren't winning. Is it really super exciting if they beat a team from NE Ohio 5-0 as opposed to a team from SW or SE Ohio? No.

Comparing us to Kansas or North Dakota in terms of travel or population density is absurd.

Clearly you are no longer talking to me but pushing your own agenda.

Moving on.
Not pushing any agenda. Just like changing the system to make it better. To see more. To increase opportunities and possibilities for the kids.

You think the comparisons are absurd, but it's been rather easy to "prove" that what is already happening (1.5+ hour travel) doesn't have to change with a blind draw. It already exists. It was your assumptions that said Cincinnati teams would travel to Cleveland.

We've talked about numerous things, including moving teams up or down based on competitive ability. Yet, the discussion has come back around to a "blind draw" proposition that got blown up to 3-5 hour travel time in Ohio. The only thing that hasn't been mentioned in that assumption is it's nearly impossible to get a 5-hour travel time in Ohio for high schools. Who is the the one being absurd? I've given clear-cut examples, not assumptions.

Just taking the NFHS mission to increase what soccer can do in a person's athletic and personal life. Never know what playing in a different area, against a different opponent can do for a kid's life.
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  #69  
Old 11-16-17, 11:28 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Blind draw at the regional level could be interesting. There are legitimate logistics concerns though and as someone pointed out, OHSAA can't just pick a stadium in the middle....that school has to be willing to host the game. So some common sense locations based on the two teams playing just might not work.

I don't know that it changes anything for the "better". Just makes things "different."
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  #70  
Old 11-16-17, 02:43 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Blind draw at the regional level could be interesting. There are legitimate logistics concerns though and as someone pointed out, OHSAA can't just pick a stadium in the middle....that school has to be willing to host the game. So some common sense locations based on the two teams playing just might not work.

I don't know that it changes anything for the "better". Just makes things "different."
If I'm not mistaken, hosting locations are submitted before the tournament starts. All schools know that they could host, so the opportunity presents itself to a half-way meeting spot or close enough.

Travel is semi-known by the OHSAA administration. If it weren't, then we'd have much more sensible placement of matches. Anderson could have picked up Sycamore on the way to their District Semi-final played at Lakota West. Much "easier" locations to choose from if travel is actually a concern with the decision making.

Additionally, if we really wanted to talk about traveling for postseason, missed classes, etc. then we should bring up the fact that EVERY high school team gets to play in postseason. If we really cared about missed classes, travel, and the like then we'd only allow teams worthy of postseason play into the tournament.

Some scores in DI boys state tournament:
  • St. Ignatius v. Valley Forge - 11-0 (2nd round)
  • University School v. Lake Catholic - 7-1 (District Final)
  • Normandy v. John Hay -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • Glenoak v. Washington -- 9-0 (1st round)
  • Toledo DeSales v. Lima Senior -- 11-0 (2nd round)
  • Archbishop Hoban v. Kenmore-Garfield -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • St. John's Jesuit v. Bowsher -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • Avon Lake v. Lorain -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • Anthony Wayne v. Columbian -- 10-0 (1st round)
  • Dublin Jerome v. Tri-Valley -- 9-0 (2nd round)
  • Olentangy v. Marion Harding -- 12-1 (1st round)
  • Moeller v. Winton Woods -- 9-0 (2nd round)
  • Centerville v. Piqua -- 11-0 (2nd round)
  • Beavercreek v. Stebbins -- 10-0 (2nd round)
  • Sycamore v. Northwest -- 10-0 (1st round)
  • Anderson v. Withrow -- 9-0 (1st round)
  • Anderson v. Mt. Healthy -- 9-0 (2nd round)
  • Carroll v. West Carrollton -- 9-0 (1st round)
  • Carroll v. Fairborn -- 8-0 (2nd round)


Many of these games were weeknight kickoffs at 7:00pm. Can you imagine the 11-0 loss for Piqua to then travel from Centerville to Piqua? By the time they get back it'll be near 11:00pm. Gasp!
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  #71  
Old 11-16-17, 03:04 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
If I'm not mistaken, hosting locations are submitted before the tournament starts. All schools know that they could host, so the opportunity presents itself to a half-way meeting spot or close enough.

Travel is semi-known by the OHSAA administration. If it weren't, then we'd have much more sensible placement of matches. Anderson could have picked up Sycamore on the way to their District Semi-final played at Lakota West. Much "easier" locations to choose from if travel is actually a concern with the decision making.

Additionally, if we really wanted to talk about traveling for postseason, missed classes, etc. then we should bring up the fact that EVERY high school team gets to play in postseason. If we really cared about missed classes, travel, and the like then we'd only allow teams worthy of postseason play into the tournament.

Some scores in DI boys state tournament:
  • St. Ignatius v. Valley Forge - 11-0 (2nd round)
  • University School v. Lake Catholic - 7-1 (District Final)
  • Normandy v. John Hay -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • Glenoak v. Washington -- 9-0 (1st round)
  • Toledo DeSales v. Lima Senior -- 11-0 (2nd round)
  • Archbishop Hoban v. Kenmore-Garfield -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • St. John's Jesuit v. Bowsher -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • Avon Lake v. Lorain -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • Anthony Wayne v. Columbian -- 10-0 (1st round)
  • Dublin Jerome v. Tri-Valley -- 8-0 (2nd round)
  • Olentangy v. Marion Harding -- 12-1 (1st round)
  • Moeller v. Winton Woods -- 9-0 (2nd round)
  • Centerville v. Piqua -- 11-0 (2nd round)
  • Beavercreek v. Stebbins -- 10-0 (2nd round)
  • Sycamore v. Northwest -- 10-0 (1st round)
  • Anderson v. Withrow -- 9-0 (1st round)
  • Anderson v. Mt. Healthy -- 9-0 (2nd round)
  • Carroll v. West Carrollton -- 9-0 (1st round)
  • Carroll v. Fairborn -- 8-0 (2nd round)


Many of these games were weeknight kickoffs at 7:00pm. Can you imagine the 11-0 loss for Piqua to then travel from Centerville to Piqua? By the time they get back it'll be near 11:00pm. Gasp!
Schools put in before tournament starts but circumstances can change later. Their team might still be playing or the stadium is only available during the day but teams can't play during the day due to act/sat tests, etc. Just this year we saw games in the SW with times and locations changed due to a variety of reasons.

My kids have never had to miss classes for soccer tournament games. Maybe if they would make state semis or finals.

How far away do you think piqua is from Centerville anyway? It's not 2 hours. That whole argument is silly. Following your logic there shouldn't have even been a tournament in 2015 & 2016 in d3 since summit beat everyone so badly.

Not even sure why you brought up first round games since we were talking about the regional tournament level anyway. Actually, I don't know why you're arguing with me in general. I said a blind draw would be interesting. Not sure it's better though. And yes, despite what you said, there are legitimate travel concerns.
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  #72  
Old 11-16-17, 03:45 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
How far away do you think piqua is from Centerville anyway? It's not 2 hours. That whole argument is silly. Following your logic there shouldn't have even been a tournament in 2015 & 2016 in d3 since summit beat everyone so badly.

Not even sure why you brought up first round games since we were talking about the regional tournament level anyway. Actually, I don't know why you're arguing with me in general. I said a blind draw would be interesting. Not sure it's better though. And yes, despite what you said, there are legitimate travel concerns.
Piqua is over an hour from Centerville. If game starts at 7pm, ends near 9pm. Add time for food, changing, talking, etc. and they are back near 11pm...which is what I stated.

I brought up first round games, exactly why I stated it: if we care about travel and time away (potentially missing class) then we should do away with EVERY team making postseason play. It's literally stated before the scores reported. Travel isn't really THAT big of a concern if we allow hundreds of games to be played by teams that don't deserve to play postseason. Know how much money is being wasted there? That adds additional facility concerns, referee concerns, travel concerns, and health concerns.

I didn't state no one should make the tournament. I asked why every team should make the tournament. It's not hard to restrict tournament to those that deserve to be there, especially if we want to claim travel as a concern. Not everyone makes postseason in football. Could limit it to top 1-2 in conference play, that way conferences actually mean something.

I'm not arguing with you. It's a discussion. The first couple of paragraphs in my reply were to you. The rest was additional, sorry for the lack of clarity there.
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  #73  
Old 11-16-17, 04:00 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
Piqua is over an hour from Centerville. If game starts at 7pm, ends near 9pm. Add time for food, changing, talking, etc. and they are back near 11pm...which is what I stated.

I brought up first round games, exactly why I stated it: if we care about travel and time away (potentially missing class) then we should do away with EVERY team making postseason play. It's literally stated before the scores reported. Travel isn't really THAT big of a concern if we allow hundreds of games to be played by teams that don't deserve to play postseason. Know how much money is being wasted there? That adds additional facility concerns, referee concerns, travel concerns, and health concerns.

I didn't state no one should make the tournament. I asked why every team should make the tournament. It's not hard to restrict tournament to those that deserve to be there, especially if we want to claim travel as a concern. Not everyone makes postseason in football. Could limit it to top 1-2 in conference play, that way conferences actually mean something.

I'm not arguing with you. It's a discussion. The first couple of paragraphs in my reply were to you. The rest was additional, sorry for the lack of clarity there.
Piqua is only 45 minutes away from Centerville. Game starts at 7:00. Over at 8:30-ish. (2 40 min halves plus 10 minute halftime = 90 mins plus running clock second half to keep things moving). On bus by 9. Home by 10.

For the most part, first & second round games are local. Hour or less travel. Pretty normal. District games at neutral site could be a little longer. Same with regional rounds. Again, not sure the point of even bringing these games up. Travel isn't an issue with these games.

Travel only is a concern if we re-draw at the regional level and could potentially have teams travelling up to 2 hours one way to play someone. Assuming having a neutral site in between.

The topic at hand was re-drawing of regional tournament games and potential travel implications. I am sure to the teams that are fortunate to make it that late in the tournament will play anywhere asked.
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  #74  
Old 11-16-17, 06:10 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
I just gave prime examples of games that DID already take place. Everyone has heard the complaints about match-ups anytime in the postseason. They range from: terrible neutral site venue, unfair seeding, don't get to see the best teams because X-school has an easier avenue, etc.

A few years ago I saw a DeSales v. Carroll game get a "neutral" venue of Bellbrook (I believe that's where it was). Make one team drive while other gets to go in own back yard. Different sport, but recently Boone County HS (Kentucky) had a first-round (gasp!) postseason football game against in Paducah, a 4.5 hour drive! I really can go on with relative distances in any state and any school.

For the most part, you can get a match-up of anywhere in the state and "meet in the middle" for 1.5-2 hour drive. That's simple. It was probably an hour-plus drive for the Anderson v. Beavercreek match this fall, traffic between the two can be a bear. An extra half-hour is not a big deal if they now drive to Columbus to play a different opponent. Then, there's the possibility of seeing an Anderson v. Beavercreek state final! Now, let's talk about attendance to that one...
My son played in that game ( Carroll / DeSales ) and yes we drove to see him play on a week night and drove just as far for the Regional Semi which was played in Logan also on a week night The Regional Final was on a Saturday in Zanesville.
all 3 sites where much better than a blind draw and going to Bay Village ,Cincinnati , Walsh Jesuit or Youngstown.
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  #75  
Old 11-16-17, 06:17 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
I just gave prime examples of games that DID already take place. Everyone has heard the complaints about match-ups anytime in the postseason. They range from: terrible neutral site venue, unfair seeding, don't get to see the best teams because X-school has an easier avenue, etc.

A few years ago I saw a DeSales v. Carroll game get a "neutral" venue of Bellbrook (I believe that's where it was). Make one team drive while other gets to go in own back yard. Different sport, but recently Boone County HS (Kentucky) had a first-round (gasp!) postseason football game against in Paducah, a 4.5 hour drive! I really can go on with relative distances in any state and any school.

For the most part, you can get a match-up of anywhere in the state and "meet in the middle" for 1.5-2 hour drive. That's simple. It was probably an hour-plus drive for the Anderson v. Beavercreek match this fall, traffic between the two can be a bear. An extra half-hour is not a big deal if they now drive to Columbus to play a different opponent. Then, there's the possibility of seeing an Anderson v. Beavercreek state final! Now, let's talk about attendance to that one...
My son played in that game and yes we drove to see him play on a week night ( Desales / Carrollthat game was a State Semi not a Regional ) and drove just as far for the Regional Semi which was played in Logan also on a week night The Regional Final was on a Saturday in Zanesville.
all 3 sites where much better than a blind draw and going to Bay Village ,Cincinnati , Walsh Jesuit or Youngstown.
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  #76  
Old 11-17-17, 07:59 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but football is the only sport where every team does not make the Playoffs, only a select few. The reason is simple: one 1 game per week limits the number of Playoff Rounds that can be reasonably scheduled. Thus, in all likelihood, there are lopsided scores in most, if not ALL, of those other sports in the opening several rounds.
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  #77  
Old 11-18-17, 03:27 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ_SoccerRef View Post
Correct me if Iím wrong, but football is the only sport where every team does not make the Playoffs, only a select few. The reason is simple: one 1 game per week limits the number of Playoff Rounds that can be reasonably scheduled. Thus, in all likelihood, there are lopsided scores in most, if not ALL, of those other sports in the opening several rounds.
I believe you are correct. Football is only sport where not everyone qualifies. Even so, they have lopsided scores in those first round games. Lots of them.
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  #78  
Old 11-18-17, 10:14 AM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
I believe you are correct. Football is only sport where not everyone qualifies. Even so, they have lopsided scores in those first round games. Lots of them.
There were some lopsided scores last night in the Regional Finals......
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  #79  
Old 11-18-17, 10:23 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by MJ_SoccerRef View Post
There were some lopsided scores last night in the Regional Finals......
Yea, I saw some of those too....in some divisions the games aren't good until this upcoming week.
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  #80  
Old 11-20-17, 04:36 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
Not pushing any agenda. Just like changing the system to make it better. To see more. To increase opportunities and possibilities for the kids.

You think the comparisons are absurd, but it's been rather easy to "prove" that what is already happening (1.5+ hour travel) doesn't have to change with a blind draw. It already exists. It was your assumptions that said Cincinnati teams would travel to Cleveland.

We've talked about numerous things, including moving teams up or down based on competitive ability. Yet, the discussion has come back around to a "blind draw" proposition that got blown up to 3-5 hour travel time in Ohio. The only thing that hasn't been mentioned in that assumption is it's nearly impossible to get a 5-hour travel time in Ohio for high schools. Who is the the one being absurd? I've given clear-cut examples, not assumptions.

Just taking the NFHS mission to increase what soccer can do in a person's athletic and personal life. Never know what playing in a different area, against a different opponent can do for a kid's life.
comparing travel, population density anddistances between schools in ohio versus alaska or north dakota is absurd

no doubt there

i'm all for mixing up regions or matchups

i just don't think it will have any effect on the outcome
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  #81  
Old 11-20-17, 04:38 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
If I'm not mistaken, hosting locations are submitted before the tournament starts. All schools know that they could host, so the opportunity presents itself to a half-way meeting spot or close enough.

Travel is semi-known by the OHSAA administration. If it weren't, then we'd have much more sensible placement of matches. Anderson could have picked up Sycamore on the way to their District Semi-final played at Lakota West. Much "easier" locations to choose from if travel is actually a concern with the decision making.

Additionally, if we really wanted to talk about traveling for postseason, missed classes, etc. then we should bring up the fact that EVERY high school team gets to play in postseason. If we really cared about missed classes, travel, and the like then we'd only allow teams worthy of postseason play into the tournament.

Some scores in DI boys state tournament:
  • St. Ignatius v. Valley Forge - 11-0 (2nd round)
  • University School v. Lake Catholic - 7-1 (District Final)
  • Normandy v. John Hay -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • Glenoak v. Washington -- 9-0 (1st round)
  • Toledo DeSales v. Lima Senior -- 11-0 (2nd round)
  • Archbishop Hoban v. Kenmore-Garfield -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • St. John's Jesuit v. Bowsher -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • Avon Lake v. Lorain -- 11-0 (1st round)
  • Anthony Wayne v. Columbian -- 10-0 (1st round)
  • Dublin Jerome v. Tri-Valley -- 9-0 (2nd round)
  • Olentangy v. Marion Harding -- 12-1 (1st round)
  • Moeller v. Winton Woods -- 9-0 (2nd round)
  • Centerville v. Piqua -- 11-0 (2nd round)
  • Beavercreek v. Stebbins -- 10-0 (2nd round)
  • Sycamore v. Northwest -- 10-0 (1st round)
  • Anderson v. Withrow -- 9-0 (1st round)
  • Anderson v. Mt. Healthy -- 9-0 (2nd round)
  • Carroll v. West Carrollton -- 9-0 (1st round)
  • Carroll v. Fairborn -- 8-0 (2nd round)


Many of these games were weeknight kickoffs at 7:00pm. Can you imagine the 11-0 loss for Piqua to then travel from Centerville to Piqua? By the time they get back it'll be near 11:00pm. Gasp!
that's a leap

what's the longest distance above? 45 minutes?

no one is missing class there

You are essentially making up problems that don't exist

what do you propose?
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  #82  
Old 11-21-17, 09:49 AM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
that's a leap

what's the longest distance above? 45 minutes?
Off the top of my head, there were 3 of those games that are minimum 60 minutes by bus. Add in traffic allowance, which many do and it's much longer than 60 minutes, probably 90 minutes. I gave those as an example, that's only Division I.

It's simple to Google Map any of those schools (like Piqua and Centerville) and say, "that's a 45 minute drive." Yes, maybe it could be by Mommy or Daddy driving in their car/truck/van/SUV. They aren't that by school bus, if that's what the schools are doing -- and most are.

Travel will be farther in other divisions as they are outside the population densities more in DII and DIII.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
You are essentially making up problems that don't exist

what do you propose?
If we REALLY want to make-up for travel costs, referee costs, away from family time, possible missed class, late nights, etc. then we'd not allow for all teams to make postseason.

Make conferences actually "mean something." Place top 2 (or whatever number is adequate for the conference/league) in your conference/league, make postseason tournament. Very similar to football.

Referee numbers struggled this year, cancelled games all the time for low numbers. Why continue stretching referees during postseason? Reduce games and get best referees refereeing in the postseason.

I don't know all divisional breakdowns, but I would assume there's around 100 teams per division. There's probably 20-30% of each division that does not deserve to play postseason. Seriously, what sense do 11-0 match-ups in postseason really do for anyone?

Why should teams that have 0, 2, 4, etc. wins play a postseason game just to lose by 8+ goals? There's no "experience" or "value" that's really garnered from it. They've already had a whole season of doing the same.
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  #83  
Old 11-21-17, 11:26 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
Off the top of my head, there were 3 of those games that are minimum 60 minutes by bus. Add in traffic allowance, which many do and it's much longer than 60 minutes, probably 90 minutes. I gave those as an example, that's only Division I.

It's simple to Google Map any of those schools (like Piqua and Centerville) and say, "that's a 45 minute drive." Yes, maybe it could be by Mommy or Daddy driving in their car/truck/van/SUV. They aren't that by school bus, if that's what the schools are doing -- and most are.

Travel will be farther in other divisions as they are outside the population densities more in DII and DIII.



If we REALLY want to make-up for travel costs, referee costs, away from family time, possible missed class, late nights, etc. then we'd not allow for all teams to make postseason.

Make conferences actually "mean something." Place top 2 (or whatever number is adequate for the conference/league) in your conference/league, make postseason tournament. Very similar to football.

Referee numbers struggled this year, cancelled games all the time for low numbers. Why continue stretching referees during postseason? Reduce games and get best referees refereeing in the postseason.

I don't know all divisional breakdowns, but I would assume there's around 100 teams per division. There's probably 20-30% of each division that does not deserve to play postseason. Seriously, what sense do 11-0 match-ups in postseason really do for anyone?

Why should teams that have 0, 2, 4, etc. wins play a postseason game just to lose by 8+ goals? There's no "experience" or "value" that's really garnered from it. They've already had a whole season of doing the same.
FYI - There are almost 200 teams per division.

Even by bus, Piqua to Centerville is not 90 minutes. Games are at 7 p.m. Most of the rush hour is gone by the time Piqua traveled through downtown Dayton unless there was an accident.

The referees are paid to do the job. If they are away from family, they know that going in. The families of the players are going to be at the game.

Football is not done by top 2 in their leagues. They use a point system called "Harbins" to determines who gets in the playoffs. In some leagues, 3, 4 or maybe 5 teams are good enough to make long post season runs. Don't like that idea at all.

Sometimes, a team that only has a few wins in the regular season can put a scare in another team. In D3, Brookville (2-14) took Yellow Springs (12-4-2) to PK's to decide that game. In your world, this game would have never happened.

If you want to have teams from Cleveland play teams from Cincy in the regional tournament....all anyone is saying is that travel time has to be taken into consideration. Either through a field in between (Columbus in this example) or playing on the weekends only. It really wouldn't be a burden on the players to get there....the schools would get them there. But for a weekday game in Columbus or some other central point, the burden is on the families.....get off of work, get other kids, eat, etc. AND get to the game by 7 can be a real challenge.
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Old 11-21-17, 01:31 PM
iluvsnow iluvsnow is offline
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The games may be at 7....but for the half hour warm-up period etc....the team has to be there by 6:15. That means indeed...the departure is right in the heart of rush hour. A bus cannot make it from Centerville to Piqua on a weeknight in 45 minutes in that time slot. NO where close based on what its like in downtown Dayton on I-75 during rush hour...or the time just to get from Centerville's high school to the Interstate at that time of day.
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Old 11-21-17, 01:40 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
FYI - There are almost 200 teams per division.

Even by bus, Piqua to Centerville is not 90 minutes. Games are at 7 p.m. Most of the rush hour is gone by the time Piqua traveled through downtown Dayton unless there was an accident.

The referees are paid to do the job. If they are away from family, they know that going in. The families of the players are going to be at the game.

Football is not done by top 2 in their leagues. They use a point system called "Harbins" to determines who gets in the playoffs. In some leagues, 3, 4 or maybe 5 teams are good enough to make long post season runs. Don't like that idea at all.

Sometimes, a team that only has a few wins in the regular season can put a scare in another team. In D3, Brookville (2-14) took Yellow Springs (12-4-2) to PK's to decide that game. In your world, this game would have never happened.

If you want to have teams from Cleveland play teams from Cincy in the regional tournament....all anyone is saying is that travel time has to be taken into consideration. Either through a field in between (Columbus in this example) or playing on the weekends only. It really wouldn't be a burden on the players to get there....the schools would get them there. But for a weekday game in Columbus or some other central point, the burden is on the families.....get off of work, get other kids, eat, etc. AND get to the game by 7 can be a real challenge.
To clarify, some things:
1) I never said Piqua is 90 minutes from Centerville. It is near an hour (by car) and could be much more by bus.
2) In regards to football making playoffs, I never intended it to come across as be 1-2 in conference then you make playoffs. I see how that came across. But, one doesn't really win conference (or finish 2nd) and miss playoffs. Sorry for the lack of clarity.
3) Sure, there's always outliers and upsets in postseason. For every 2-win team going to penalties there's 20+ that are 8+ goal differential games.
4) I have given plenty of examples of travel distances in numerous states, including on nearby that was a longer drive than anyone in Ohio has done this year (I assume). It's not that hard to get to Columbus IF that setup were to happen. Traveling to interscholastic competitions are done all over the country. I used to travel 1:45 to a league game in HS -- you can bet class was missed and families got there. I'm sure that still happens places in league competitions, it can happen for 4 times in a state tournament with ease.
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Old 11-21-17, 02:13 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvsnow View Post
The games may be at 7....but for the half hour warm-up period etc....the team has to be there by 6:15. That means indeed...the departure is right in the heart of rush hour. A bus cannot make it from Centerville to Piqua on a weeknight in 45 minutes in that time slot. NO where close based on what its like in downtown Dayton on I-75 during rush hour...or the time just to get from Centerville's high school to the Interstate at that time of day.
Yes, they would depart Piqua in this example about 5. By the time they make it to Edwin Moses Blvd (UD Arena exit), it would be about 5:40-5:45 due to bus travel. It's another 20-25 minutes to Magsig in Centerville. That would have them getting off the bus about 6:10. And those are inflated times due to traffic and bus travel.

I travel 75 every day during rush hour is this area. Barring any accidents, most of rush hour is out of the way by the time their bus is rolling through.
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Old 11-21-17, 02:22 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
To clarify, some things:
1) I never said Piqua is 90 minutes from Centerville. It is near an hour (by car) and could be much more by bus.
2) In regards to football making playoffs, I never intended it to come across as be 1-2 in conference then you make playoffs. I see how that came across. But, one doesn't really win conference (or finish 2nd) and miss playoffs. Sorry for the lack of clarity.
3) Sure, there's always outliers and upsets in postseason. For every 2-win team going to penalties there's 20+ that are 8+ goal differential games.
4) I have given plenty of examples of travel distances in numerous states, including on nearby that was a longer drive than anyone in Ohio has done this year (I assume). It's not that hard to get to Columbus IF that setup were to happen. Traveling to interscholastic competitions are done all over the country. I used to travel 1:45 to a league game in HS -- you can bet class was missed and families got there. I'm sure that still happens places in league competitions, it can happen for 4 times in a state tournament with ease.
1. Ok. The discussion about Piqua to Centerville travel time isn't really relevant. That's on me I guess because I kept arguing that point. I am familiar with the routes, etc. so I know what I can make it in by car.
2. No problem. I knew there were some leagues where teams 1-4 are all top teams in their areas. That's why I wanted to point that out.
3. Yes, I understand that. Just saying if we don't include everyone you would never get those situations. There are some every year. I like to see them.
4. Yes, I saw your examples. Not saying its impossible. Just saying some consideration needs to be given. I am sure all the D3 teams in SW Ohio would have loved to been paired with any other team the past three years besides Summit at the regional level in your suggestion. I think it could be interesting. Not sure its better - just different. Whether its Cleveland-Cincy or Toledo-Cincy pairings, the key to the success would be getting a neutral site that works for both schools and their fans. As I said earlier....if teams are making it that far the school will get them there in time and the families will get there too.

It's all a good discussion.
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Old 11-21-17, 03:11 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
It's all a good discussion.
Exactly, that's what I enjoy. Thank you.

I'm not sure the reason "why" this discussion got started or not. I could read back, but I'd rather not. But, basically, I think it's great to have "random" match-ups to see variance in the state tournament...especially late in the tournament.

I'm not all for limiting teams from the state tournament. But, I simply brought that up because IF travel is an argument, IF costs are an argument, etc. then there's ways to limit both. If travel and costs are that big of a deal, then people will be missing out on an opportunity and postseason participation is limited.

I think it'd be great to see "top teams" from the same city be able to compete for a state title. Right now, that's not possible. Someone would get knocked out in the last 16, 8, or 4. It's setup that way. If it happens by random, so be it. For a "random draw" setup, one really would look at the possibility of traveling a little farther for maybe 2-3 games. That's it. Adds a little new flavor to the state tournament.
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