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  #1  
Old 10-21-13, 01:52 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Ask The Ref?

We've had several threads like this in the various forums and we have a certified official that is willing to answer questions about the rules of the game. Feel free to ask the questions in this thread.
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  #2  
Old 10-21-13, 03:00 PM
HoHumming HoHumming is offline
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What are the current rules regarding a quarterback throwing the ball out of bounds / intentionally grounding a ball?

When I played, there had to be a receiver near the ball, regardless of position in the pocket, etc.. Has that changed?
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  #3  
Old 10-21-13, 03:03 PM
SW OH Official SW OH Official is offline
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Essentially, there is no "pocket" in Ohio HS football. The rule of thumb is that an eligible receiver needs to be within 10 yards of where the ball lands.

Throwing out of bounds is generally speaking accepted as long as there is an eligible receiver in the direction of the pass.
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  #4  
Old 10-21-13, 03:29 PM
kingdaddy kingdaddy is offline
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I read here recently that there is a rule addressing "leaping"... If there is a pile of bodies under you, are you required to run around them? Do you know the background regarding this rule, and can you expound on it? thank you in advance!!
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  #5  
Old 10-21-13, 03:35 PM
SW OH Official SW OH Official is offline
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You usually see it on extra points and field goals. Defensive players would jump on top of D-linemen's back or players in the pile to block kicks. This is a safety issue. Most states are re-charging officials into calling these types of penalties.
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  #6  
Old 10-21-13, 03:38 PM
HoHumming HoHumming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW OH Official View Post
You usually see it on extra points and field goals. Defensive players would jump on top of D-linemen's back or players in the pile to block kicks. This is a safety issue. Most states are re-charging officials into calling these types of penalties.
Doesn't this also now apply to ball carriers jumping over an upright defender? I saw it called in-game once this year.
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Old 10-21-13, 03:48 PM
serpico serpico is offline
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Late game situation. Team A is leading and has the ball. Team B is out of timeouts. If Team A is called for procedure and the play blown dead, a) does the clock re-start before the next snap, b) isn't this an easy way to milk some clock, or c) do the referees have the discretion to NOT start the clock after the penalty is marked off?
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  #8  
Old 10-21-13, 06:37 PM
SW OH Official SW OH Official is offline
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Hohumming- yes, hurdling penalty occurs when a ball carrier jumps over a defender making an attempt to make a tackle.

Serpico- a) the clock would start on the ready whistle or at the snap, depending on previous clock status, b) yes,, c) the referee can invoke illegally conserving or consuming time and start the clock on the snap to prevent it further.
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  #9  
Old 10-21-13, 08:16 PM
tallmadge H2 dad tallmadge H2 dad is offline
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Is there a new HS rule that when a team misses a FG attempt inside the 20, the ball is spotted on the 20 rather than where the FG was attempted?
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  #10  
Old 10-21-13, 08:27 PM
mixerman1616 mixerman1616 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallmadge H2 dad View Post
Is there a new HS rule that when a team misses a FG attempt inside the 20, the ball is spotted on the 20 rather than where the FG was attempted?
Its a touchback if the kick crosses the goal line. But this isnt a new rule. BTW that goes for all field goal attempts, not just ones inside the 20.
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  #11  
Old 10-21-13, 08:38 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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A field goal is a punt essentially.

Regarding hurdling, the player being hurdled pretty much needs to have both feet on the ground for it to be a penalty. The ball carrier can jump over defenders that are already laying on the ground without penalty.

Regarding the clock starting at the referee's discretion, this is a point of emphasis this year and the referee has more flexibility to stop the clock if he feels the team is trying to do it to milk the clock like in your situation above.
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  #12  
Old 10-21-13, 08:45 PM
nupanther nupanther is offline
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Is a personal foul on the defense an automatic 1st down? I thought I saw a situation where it was 3rd & 20, the foul was called and it was marked off to 3rd & 5
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  #13  
Old 10-21-13, 08:47 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nupanther View Post
Is a personal foul on the defense an automatic 1st down? I thought I saw a situation where it was 3rd & 20, the foul was called and it was marked off to 3rd & 5
Roughing the passer and roughing the kicker are the only two automatic first downs. Pass interference was until this year but now is changed to 15 yards only.
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  #14  
Old 10-21-13, 08:50 PM
hsfan60 hsfan60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW OH Official View Post
Hohumming- yes, hurdling penalty occurs when a ball carrier jumps over a defender making an attempt to make a tackle.
Doesn't the position of the defender head make a difference as to whether it is hurdling or not? It use to?
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  #15  
Old 10-21-13, 08:52 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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If he's standing it's hurdling, if not it's not hurdling. Head position doesn't matter.
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  #16  
Old 10-21-13, 08:57 PM
COLTCOUNTRY COLTCOUNTRY is offline
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How come refs don't consistently enforce the band rule?? My understanding is a band can play from when the play is whistled dead until the offense breaks huddle and starts to line up. I have been to some games over the last few years where the bands play nonstop. I love what bands bring to the HS game atmosphere but some of them are completely obnoxious. The rule exists and is fairly clear so what's up with the inconsistency??
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  #17  
Old 10-21-13, 09:02 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Don't quote me on this one. It's more of a state regulation and the refs really don't want to get involved in what is going on in the stands. You are right about the regulation but that is one of those things that really would open up a can of worms and if it can be avoided will be avoided.
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  #18  
Old 10-21-13, 09:07 PM
COLTCOUNTRY COLTCOUNTRY is offline
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But some schools have been penalized then their bands get scared to play. Other schools may never have been flagged and play away. Creates an unfair situation. The 'Leaf was flagged a few years ago and it is only this year that the band has really got back into playing during the game.
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  #19  
Old 10-21-13, 09:10 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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I agree, it's very inconsistent. Most of the people I've worked with completely ignore it but I have been with people who did not put the ball back in play until the band stopped. Would be nice for the OHSAA to give a definite answer to this. I think right now the common thought (at least in the northeast part of the state), it's more of an administrative issue rather than a game issue. Interesting to hear what the rest of the state is doing.
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  #20  
Old 10-21-13, 09:36 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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I have a quick question. In the Mooney/Canisius game this past week a flag was thrown for 12 men on the field AFTER a play had ended. Mooney punted, the tackle was made, the ball was placed, the offense and defense both came on the field and THEN the flag was thrown. Was this correct? Was it too late?

Also in the same game, Canisius broke the huddle, came to the line and then rehuddled. Illegal procedure. Is this a new rule? Has it always been a rule?

Thanks!
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  #21  
Old 10-21-13, 09:48 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Part 1: It sounds like it was late but did they get the call right in the end? That's all that officials strive for. Sometimes it might not look pretty but it's the end result that counts. I don't believe there is anything officially wrong with throwing the flag that late other than it doesn't look too great.

Part 2: Again, I'm not a rules expert but I don't believe there is anything wrong with this unless the linemen had already gone into their stance, or the center had already touched the ball, or it was a delay of game. Again, I'd have to know the exact scenario and if that is in the rules I've never heard of it. Someone better with the rules please correct me if I'm wrong.
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  #22  
Old 10-21-13, 10:08 PM
HoHumming HoHumming is offline
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This is a great thread, by the way. Great idea.
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  #23  
Old 10-21-13, 10:12 PM
Leonidas7 Leonidas7 is offline
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Is there a horse collar call in HS ? ALSO ARE THERE 2 types of Facemask penalties or just 1 ?
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  #24  
Old 10-21-13, 10:12 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
Part 1: It sounds like it was late but did they get the call right in the end? That's all that officials strive for. Sometimes it might not look pretty but it's the end result that counts. I don't believe there is anything officially wrong with throwing the flag that late other than it doesn't look too great.

Part 2: Again, I'm not a rules expert but I don't believe there is anything wrong with this unless the linemen had already gone into their stance, or the center had already touched the ball, or it was a delay of game. Again, I'd have to know the exact scenario and if that is in the rules I've never heard of it. Someone better with the rules please correct me if I'm wrong.
I figured that with part 1. It just looked bad was all. Believe they got it right though.

Part 2, Canisius broke the huddle, came towards the line and then rehuddled. I believe the center touched the ball, but I can't be positive. I'm thinking the center touching the ball and then reshuffling may have been the infraction?
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  #25  
Old 10-21-13, 10:17 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas7 View Post
Is there a horse collar call in HS ? ALSO ARE THERE 2 types of Facemask penalties or just 1 ?
Yes, the horse collar rule is very specific. The runner actually has to be tackled and he has to come down backward. The tell tale sign of a horse collar is seeing the knees buckle. Remember, it has to be a tackle. Just grabbing it doesn't mean it's a horse collar. Also, it has to be by the equipment, not the jersey.

Yes, 5 yard and 15 yard facemask still exist in high school.
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  #26  
Old 10-21-13, 10:18 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Part 2, Canisius broke the huddle, came towards the line and then rehuddled. I believe the center touched the ball, but I can't be positive. I'm thinking the center touching the ball and then reshuffling may have been the infraction?
That could have been it.
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  #27  
Old 10-21-13, 10:53 PM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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Outside WR takes his position with his front foot two yards off the LOS. The LJ is not punching him off. Play is run, then the LJ throws a flag for illegal formation, citing the same WR as being off the LOS (thus 5 men in the backfield).

Gold book says that the LM/LJ is to "Punch him off at a 90 degree angle & hold until snap. ... NO signal given for nearest A player on LOS." Again, the LJ made no signal.

How is this evaluated? Correct call? Correct call but bad procedure? Bad call?
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  #28  
Old 10-21-13, 11:00 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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What you cite from the Gold Book is the correct mechanic. What we do not know is what kind of communication there was between the official and the player. Maybe he told him that he needed to move up and the player didn't listen and he just didn't get a chance to punch before the snap. That's a hard one to comment on without being there.
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  #29  
Old 10-22-13, 12:19 AM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
What you cite from the Gold Book is the correct mechanic. What we do not know is what kind of communication there was between the official and the player. Maybe he told him that he needed to move up and the player didn't listen and he just didn't get a chance to punch before the snap. That's a hard one to comment on without being there.
19 seconds left in the game. Team with possession down by 3, with 2nd and goal at the 5. 10,000 screaming fans. It's not clear that a spoken warning would've been heard (isn't that why the mechanic describes a clear visual signal?).

There's a picture of the play prior to the snap which shows the LJ. Note that the motion man came clear across the line before the snap; that would seem to indicate he had plenty of time to make the signal.



You can also see video of the play (at 2:06:30), although the LJ is not in the frame.

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  #30  
Old 10-22-13, 06:59 AM
tom_hsfootball_fan tom_hsfootball_fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
19 seconds left in the game. Team with possession down by 3, with 2nd and goal at the 5. 10,000 screaming fans. It's not clear that a spoken warning would've been heard (isn't that why the mechanic describes a clear visual signal?).

There's a picture of the play prior to the snap which shows the LJ. Note that the motion man came clear across the line before the snap; that would seem to indicate he had plenty of time to make the signal.
This is one of the biggest BS calls I ever saw. If the wide receiver was off the line (he might have been 37 inches off), out there by himself with man coverage... the Line Judge has got to apply a little common sense to the situation. Even though he's out of frame at the snap, if you watch the comparative position of the shadows of the WR from the last couple of prior plays, and watch just prior to the snap, the WR has to be no more than "about" a yard off the line. This was a ticky-tack call at best.
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