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  #241  
Old 12-07-17, 11:58 AM
trey2k trey2k is online now
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Elder getting all of the good westside athletes in this climate of high school sports is a PIPEDREAM unless they recruit like Moeller or LaSalle. Plus, they have little control over it.

Suggesting Elder needs to land every good westside athlete is just plain unrealistic.

They can 100% control the things I'm suggesting.
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  #242  
Old 12-07-17, 11:58 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
I was curious because you kept saying these other schools kept close to 20 which seems like way too much for a basketball team, but you're actually right here.
St X - 23
Moeller - 21
LaSalle - 15 (they're listed as having a B team bu no roster)
Elder - 13

I don't disagree with trey here, there's no reason they can't keep 15-16 guys on the Freshmen team. In many cases some of the top 5-6 players don't play basketball after sophomore year to focus on other sports.

Referencing the team you spoke of previously:
Kraemer and Schroer both played on the freshmen team, as did Furniss. By the time they were seniors, none of them were still playing.
From that unbeaten Frosh team, Portis and Martin also gave up bball to focus on football. Honestly, that 2015-2016 team still should've made a deep run. They woefully underutilized Mosley and Harp on that team.
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  #243  
Old 12-07-17, 12:00 PM
trey2k trey2k is online now
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
And I have no clue how you can't grasp role players aren't material in overall program success. Depth is not that important in HS bball. Elder last year with Keyes and Batte is a Team that makes a deep playoff run.
And I'm not talking about role players, I'm talking about kids that have basketball talent in general that can fill the gaps when they lose kids to other sports.
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  #244  
Old 12-07-17, 12:00 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Elder getting all of the good westside athletes in this climate of high school sports is a PIPEDREAM unless they recruit like Moeller or LaSalle. Plus, they have little control over it.

They can 100% control the things I'm suggesting.
Keyes nearly transferred to Elder after his Soph year and Batte was heavily considering Elder. Either one makes a giant difference. What you're talking about might be something they control, but it's not material.
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  #245  
Old 12-07-17, 12:02 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
And I'm not talking about role players, I'm talking about kids that have basketball talent in general that can fill the gaps when they lose kids to other sports.
If those kids were really that good, they'd make the team. Elder already tried forcing kids to be strictly bball players and it was a complete and total failure that produced the absolute worst stretch of bball in the history of the school.
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  #246  
Old 12-07-17, 12:03 PM
trey2k trey2k is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
Keyes nearly transferred to Elder after his Soph year and Batte was heavily considering Elder. Either one makes a giant difference. What you're talking about might be something they control, but it's not material.
BUT THEY NEVER WORE THE PURPLE. What you're saying means nothing and it's completely irrelevant.

We can play the "what if" game forever, or we can look at what actually happened.
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  #247  
Old 12-07-17, 12:06 PM
trey2k trey2k is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
If those kids were really that good, they'd make the team. Elder already tried forcing kids to be strictly bball players and it was a complete and total failure that produced the absolute worst stretch of bball in the history of the school.
Then what is your solution to bridge the talent loss when the inevitable happens and kids focus on their best sport? It happens every year for the last 30 years.

All you do is play devil's advocate. What's your solution then?

We can't focus on recruiting basketball only players...developing more kids isn't material...we can't have them focus on just basketball...you have an issue with every possible solution to make them better.

All you ever say is "go get more talent". That pool is limited and getting smaller.
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  #248  
Old 12-07-17, 01:04 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Then what is your solution to bridge the talent loss when the inevitable happens and kids focus on their best sport? It happens every year for the last 30 years.

All you do is play devil's advocate. What's your solution then?

We can't focus on recruiting basketball only players...developing more kids isn't material...we can't have them focus on just basketball...you have an issue with every possible solution to make them better.

All you ever say is "go get more talent". That pool is limited and getting smaller.
I don't have a very good solution to make them competitive every year, bc I don't think there's a reasonable one. I think Austing is low key the best Xs and Os guy in the GCL and will get the most out of what he has. Historically, Elder's never consistently been "good"." If they can have a team that can make a deep run every 4-5 years while maintaining respectable records in between, that's fine by me. Again, this is the beta sport, they won't have the resources football has. And it's that way for most programs in Ohio, this is a football first state.
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  #249  
Old 12-07-17, 02:28 PM
polar panther polar panther is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
We're being civil...we're debating a topic.
Debating yes. Civil, mostly not. That said, you two will never agree on anything about Elder.
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  #250  
Old 12-07-17, 03:51 PM
trey2k trey2k is online now
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Originally Posted by polar panther View Post
Debating yes. Civil, mostly not. That said, you two will never agree on anything about Elder.
That's not true at all. I agree with some of what pboy says, and I've told him that many times on here. Just disagree on how to get there.

We have beat the horse dead 20 times over though, I will admit.
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  #251  
Old 12-07-17, 04:34 PM
Fair&Balanced Fair&Balanced is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
I don't have a very good solution to make them competitive every year, bc I don't think there's a reasonable one. I think Austing is low key the best Xs and Os guy in the GCL and will get the most out of what he has. Historically, Elder's never consistently been "good"." If they can have a team that can make a deep run every 4-5 years while maintaining respectable records in between, that's fine by me. Again, this is the beta sport, they won't have the resources football has. And it's that way for most programs in Ohio, this is a football first state.
You need to clarify "historically". Elder was really good in basketball from the early 1960's through the mid to late 1990's. That's almost four full decades. They won some state titles and regional titles. Regular district champs and GCL champs. Even the down teams in that period of time had good records. You need to specify teams since you went to Elder. Don't paint the picture such a wide brush.
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  #252  
Old 12-07-17, 05:05 PM
trey2k trey2k is online now
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Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced View Post
You need to clarify "historically". Elder was really good in basketball from the early 1960's through the mid to late 1990's. That's almost four full decades. They won some state titles and regional titles. Regular district champs and GCL champs. Even the down teams in that period of time had good records. You need to specify teams since you went to Elder. Don't paint the picture such a wide brush.
Great point.

If you look at this objectively, the changing landscape of how high school sports operates and the consolidation of westside parishes has greatly impacted Elder sports, most of it through no one's fault. It's an economic change that happens. To me, this is the number one reason as to why we're seeing somewhat of a decline.

Before all of this happened, Elder was a very successful basketball program. I don't believe the players Elder had 25-50 years ago were better than the ones they have now. I think they're the same...the difference is, we have less, and our competitors have way more due to the where the growth in the city has been greatest.

But with this change requires new ideas and new strategies to adapt...this is where I think they've lagged behind.

Last edited by trey2k; 12-09-17 at 09:07 AM.
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  #253  
Old 12-07-17, 07:16 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Great point.

If you look at this objectively, the changing landscape of how high school sports operates and the consolidation of westside parishes has greatly impacted Elder sports, most of it through no one's fault. It's an economic change that happens. To me, this is the number one reason as to why we're seeing somewhat of a decline.

Before all of this happened, Elder was a very successful basketball program. I don't believe the players Elder had 25-50 years ago were better than the ones we have now. I think they're the same...the difference is, we have less, and our competitors have way more due to the where the growth in the city has been greatest.

But with this change requires new ideas and new strategies to adapt...this is where I think they've lagged behind.
I agree with this, but I think it's most applicable to football where numbers and depth are more important.
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  #254  
Old 12-07-17, 07:20 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced View Post
You need to clarify "historically". Elder was really good in basketball from the early 1960's through the mid to late 1990's. That's almost four full decades. They won some state titles and regional titles. Regular district champs and GCL champs. Even the down teams in that period of time had good records. You need to specify teams since you went to Elder. Don't paint the picture such a wide brush.
They really hit a lull after '93. Then they made a nice run from '00-'02, then were avg to below avg from '02-'05, had a nice run with Rudoplh from '05-'08, then from '08-'13 they were pathetic, and picked up again from '13-'16. They're probably going to be avg for another season or two, then pick back up for a nice run.

I can live with the cyclicality of the Program as long as they don't go through another stretch like they did from '08-'13 when they were completely non competitive and downright awful some years.
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  #255  
Old 12-08-17, 03:47 AM
Fair&Balanced Fair&Balanced is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Great point.

If you look at this objectively, the changing landscape of how high school sports operates and the consolidation of westside parishes has greatly impacted Elder sports, most of it through no one's fault. It's an economic change that happens. To me, this is the number one reason as to why we're seeing somewhat of a decline.

Before all of this happened, Elder was a very successful basketball program. I don't believe the players Elder had 25-50 years ago were better than the ones we have now. I think they're the same...the difference is, we have less, and our competitors have way more due to the where the growth in the city has been greatest.

But with this change requires new ideas and new strategies to adapt...this is where I think they've lagged behind.


It is the lack of quality depth. But, I would contend that it's more than just the economic changes. Today, kids have much more choices in sports, and the choices they make are year round. Secondly, back in the day, every park on the westside had courts that were full of kids playing after school until dark every day. The weather didn't matter. Shovel the snow and play. If it wasn't a park, it was a hoop on the street or in someone's driveway. In the summer, you didn't want to lose because you would not get a chance to play again that day at the park. There were also a lot of open gyms for free. There was a lot repetition and highly competitive play.

Now, rarely do you see that. They are on Xbox or play station after school. If they play a certain sport, they maybe go to camps for short periods of time, and maybe a practice once or twice a week. A few kids have skills coaches once a week. But overall, they don't spend the time it takes to be really good. Back then, it was three sports, football, basketball, and baseball. Kids wanted to be good in all three. Same can be said about baseball. Overall, kids don't the same arm strength and velocity as back in the day. You watch baseball now. Not even close to what it was. Kids don't throw with their brothers or other kids in the neighborhood or play ball at the local sandlot or field. It's the kid that goes to pitching clinics/camps and individual instruction that has the velocity.

Today, there are less kids than back then and more things competing for their attention. Talent is spread thin and the average kid doesn't work as hard to get better at a said sport because of competing technology or interest.

This is not condemning. It's just fact in how society has developed. So, you guys need to understand kids today think differently than back in the day and are more skilled in other areas.
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  #256  
Old 12-08-17, 09:56 AM
DoctorCarlos81 DoctorCarlos81 is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
Time is finite. You need to make sure your best players get as much PT as possible. Playing 15-20 kids cuts that time way back. I don't have a problem giving deference to kids who are primarily bball players, but you can't take 15-20 kids just for the sake of having that many kids. And if they're too disillusioned to try out after being cut, they're mentally weak and don't have the ability to develop into good players. Custer and Bazely were mentally strong and decided to give it another try, instead of pissing and moaning like a lot of kids are conditioned by parents like Trey to do. You wonder why kids are so weak mentally, it's bc of idiot parents like Trey planting the seeds of victim hood in their minds.
Custer and Bazely are exactly the reason it makes sense to keep more players. your comment about others being mentally weak is silly.
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  #257  
Old 12-08-17, 10:04 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by DoctorCarlos81 View Post
Custer and Bazely are exactly the reason it makes sense to keep more players. your comment about others being mentally weak is silly.
That's 2 players in the last 20 years. And if kids aren't trying out bc they think it's a rigged system, they're mentally weak. I blame parents, like Trey, for planting the idea in their head. Every parent thinks their kid is a superstar, when in reality, you guys need to stay in your lanes.
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  #258  
Old 12-08-17, 10:09 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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It would also help if some Jrs were willing to play JV, but often don't bc of the "embarrassment." Again, it must not be that impt to play bball if you're not willing to swallow your pride for a season to play down.
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  #259  
Old 12-08-17, 10:14 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced View Post
It is the lack of quality depth. But, I would contend that it's more than just the economic changes. Today, kids have much more choices in sports, and the choices they make are year round. Secondly, back in the day, every park on the westside had courts that were full of kids playing after school until dark every day. The weather didn't matter. Shovel the snow and play. If it wasn't a park, it was a hoop on the street or in someone's driveway. In the summer, you didn't want to lose because you would not get a chance to play again that day at the park. There were also a lot of open gyms for free. There was a lot repetition and highly competitive play.

Now, rarely do you see that. They are on Xbox or play station after school. If they play a certain sport, they maybe go to camps for short periods of time, and maybe a practice once or twice a week. A few kids have skills coaches once a week. But overall, they don't spend the time it takes to be really good. Back then, it was three sports, football, basketball, and baseball. Kids wanted to be good in all three. Same can be said about baseball. Overall, kids don't the same arm strength and velocity as back in the day. You watch baseball now. Not even close to what it was. Kids don't throw with their brothers or other kids in the neighborhood or play ball at the local sandlot or field. It's the kid that goes to pitching clinics/camps and individual instruction that has the velocity.

Today, there are less kids than back then and more things competing for their attention. Talent is spread thin and the average kid doesn't work as hard to get better at a said sport because of competing technology or interest.

This is not condemning. It's just fact in how society has developed. So, you guys need to understand kids today think differently than back in the day and are more skilled in other areas.
Long winded way of saying specialization cuts down on multisport athletes. I've always maintained the kid should do what he thinks is best. It's their future and it's their time and energy. It's not a matter of being competitive vs not being competitive.
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  #260  
Old 12-08-17, 11:50 AM
Jerry Maguire Jerry Maguire is offline
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I'd be really curious to see the 8th grade Taylor middle school team play some of the WBC teams this year. Unfortunately it doesn't ever happen, but they are really good. Very big, fast, and athletic as a whole. They beat Wyoming the other night like 45-25 and could've scored 70 if they wanted, but kept rotating guys in since it's early in the season. I haven't seen WBC basketball probably ever so I really wouldn't know, but I wish the Taylor kids had exposure to at least some of it when there are kids that could be convinced to go to Elder...it's too bad they weren't invited to any area tournaments.
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  #261  
Old 12-08-17, 12:16 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jerry Maguire View Post
I'd be really curious to see the 8th grade Taylor middle school team play some of the WBC teams this year. Unfortunately it doesn't ever happen, but they are really good. Very big, fast, and athletic as a whole. They beat Wyoming the other night like 45-25 and could've scored 70 if they wanted, but kept rotating guys in since it's early in the season. I haven't seen WBC basketball probably ever so I really wouldn't know, but I wish the Taylor kids had exposure to at least some of it when there are kids that could be convinced to go to Elder...it's too bad they weren't invited to any area tournaments.
Several WBC teams scrimmage against the Oak Hills middle school teams right around Thanksgiving. Pretty sure Lourdes, St Antoninus and Victory were all there this year against Bridgetown, Rapid Run, Delhi, etc.

If the team from Taylor has any interest in participating in WBC school-sponsored tournaments there's a list of coordinators on the WBC website they can reach out to. In the past I've seen the following public schools play in WBC Tournaments:
Oak Hills 5th/6th teams
Beechwood
Jac-cen-del
Osgood

I'm sure there have been a few others I'm missing. Doesn't hurt for them to reach out and ask. No need for you to act like it's the fault of the WBC schools for "not inviting them."
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  #262  
Old 12-08-17, 12:23 PM
jtk jtk is offline
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the taylor team he's referring too can't play in the WBC tournaments. taylor is under OHSAA rules until their season is complete. then i guess they could join the three rivers athletics and play, but the WBC tournaments are over by then.

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  #263  
Old 12-08-17, 05:08 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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From what was said on here, the kid whose dad is an Elder Grad, would rather be a big fish in a tiny pond than have to compete for a spot at Elder. Oh well, Elder doesn't need anymore combo Guards
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  #264  
Old 12-08-17, 05:13 PM
trey2k trey2k is online now
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Huh?
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  #265  
Old 12-08-17, 05:47 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
From what was said on here, the kid whose dad is an Elder Grad, would rather be a big fish in a tiny pond than have to compete for a spot at Elder. Oh well, Elder doesn't need anymore combo Guards
Who are you referring to and where did that come from? I assume there were some posts deleted?
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  #266  
Old 12-09-17, 09:14 AM
trey2k trey2k is online now
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Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced View Post
It is the lack of quality depth. But, I would contend that it's more than just the economic changes. Today, kids have much more choices in sports, and the choices they make are year round. Secondly, back in the day, every park on the westside had courts that were full of kids playing after school until dark every day. The weather didn't matter. Shovel the snow and play. If it wasn't a park, it was a hoop on the street or in someone's driveway. In the summer, you didn't want to lose because you would not get a chance to play again that day at the park. There were also a lot of open gyms for free. There was a lot repetition and highly competitive play.

Now, rarely do you see that. They are on Xbox or play station after school. If they play a certain sport, they maybe go to camps for short periods of time, and maybe a practice once or twice a week. A few kids have skills coaches once a week. But overall, they don't spend the time it takes to be really good. Back then, it was three sports, football, basketball, and baseball. Kids wanted to be good in all three. Same can be said about baseball. Overall, kids don't the same arm strength and velocity as back in the day. You watch baseball now. Not even close to what it was. Kids don't throw with their brothers or other kids in the neighborhood or play ball at the local sandlot or field. It's the kid that goes to pitching clinics/camps and individual instruction that has the velocity.

Today, there are less kids than back then and more things competing for their attention. Talent is spread thin and the average kid doesn't work as hard to get better at a said sport because of competing technology or interest.

This is not condemning. It's just fact in how society has developed. So, you guys need to understand kids today think differently than back in the day and are more skilled in other areas.
I agree with the depth issue.

However, everything else you explain is true for all of the other schools and kids as well.

I think the overall talent is relatively the same, but the best basketball talent is now just concentrated into fewer schools with a reputation for basketball. Unfortunately, Elder isn't one of them.

For football, Elder is probably on the list as a destination, but fading faster than others.

Last edited by trey2k; 12-09-17 at 02:05 PM.
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  #267  
Old 12-09-17, 01:57 PM
Jerry Maguire Jerry Maguire is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
No need for you to act like it's the fault of the WBC schools for "not inviting them."
Easy, pal. I have no idea how relations are operated between public and private at that level. That wasn't meant to be a jab by any means....RELAX
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