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  #421  
Old 12-07-17, 06:46 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is online now
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No one has brought up the corporate repatriation part of this plan. I've read as much as 4 Trillion could be repatriated. That would be about 480B in revenue initially. That would also bring 3.5T in cash into the US economy in a single year. That's a heck of a jolt.
What will companies do with those funds? Pay raises? Capital investments? Dividend payouts? Or put it on pallets in a vault?
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  #422  
Old 12-07-17, 07:01 PM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
No one has brought up the corporate repatriation part of this plan. I've read as much as 4 Trillion could be repatriated. That would be about 480B in revenue initially. That would also bring 3.5T in cash into the US economy in a single year. That's a heck of a jolt.
What will companies do with those funds? Pay raises? Capital investments? Dividend payouts? Or put it on pallets in a vault?
Dividends and stock buybacks
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  #423  
Old 12-07-17, 08:35 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
Dividends and stock buybacks
Still good uses of cash.
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  #424  
Old 12-07-17, 08:54 PM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
Still good uses of cash.
Yep fulfills the objective
Maximized shareholder wealth
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  #425  
Old 12-07-17, 10:14 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
Yep fulfills the objective
Maximized shareholder wealth
Stock buybacks buys out people that wanted to sell and increases the values of individuals and cooperatives that continue to own stocks. So teachers, doctors, cops, and others that have invested their retirement funds.

Dividends of course are paid out to owners so that they can reinvest their money or buy things that they desire. Certainly a lot better use of the money than to take it from the people that earned it and redistributed to people that did nothing to earn it.
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  #426  
Old 12-08-17, 07:24 AM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
What will companies do with those funds? Pay raises?
LOL. Funniest thing ever.
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  #427  
Old 12-08-17, 09:16 AM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/taxe...BnbfcN#image=2

Seems like most people are better off......
That's fake news and generalized nonsense. It's easily disproved by the maths. It doesn't account for SALT - which is a big hit for people not living in Florida, Texas, Wyoming, etc. The people who itemize and are at the top end of the ranges that drop 1% are going to get royally screwed by the elimination of SALT.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/17/how-...s-compare.html

So looking at married filing jointly as an example. If you are in the 25% bracket and below $140 in taxable income, the drop to 22% will lessen the impact. From 140K to 153K, you are only dropping from 25% to 24%. You aren't going to make it up.

All the analysis is based on a lie that fails to account for the reality of the SALT / personal exemption loss. An Ohioan who had $150k in taxable income in 2016 is probably paying $10-12K in state and local taxes, especially if working in a city that doesn't give back to non-residents (like Columbus.) Add another $1-2K if they've got a school district income tax. So total SALT of $11-14K-ish. Lets say no kids, so another $8K loss in personal exemptions. So with no change in actual income, taxable income goes up $20-$30K. What all these news reports are doing is ignoring that rise in taxable income. What they are doing is looking at the formerly $150K guy who is now at $170-180K and saying - they drop from 28% bracket to 24% bracket. So voila, magic savings.

I've run a bunch of scenarios, and it's true for a bunch of the middle brackets. Some percentage of the old bracket is going to get a massive increase. The calculations for the people who were in the 33% range in 2016 and bumped up into the what would have been 35% for 2017 are reported as getting a 3% drop.

25%, 28%, 33%, 35% people - you're going to see either a massive increase in your withholding or a big April surprise in your near future.

Amusingly the smaller company CEO / EVP / Cxx kind of dude pulling in $500K-$1M and formerly in that 39.6% bracket is dropping to 35%, and even a lot of them are going to get raped.

This whole thing is a scam. The tax system is already designed to screw the higher-end W-2 earned income folks by making them bear then bulk of the burden of taxes. People with a bunch of unearned income from investments or capital gains and those running a business all gain from this. The retired and the rich do ok. As do the middle class Reagan/Trump flexibly democrat/republican voters but slightly less so.

This entire thing is nothing but a thinly disguised massive tax increase on the upper middle class, white collar professional employees (not business owners) because the Republicans know:
a) we apply quitcherbitchin to ourselves
b) we are good patriotic Murkans who feel a sense of civic responsibility
c) we can all tap into a HELOC on April 14th if need be thinking that we're getting a bonus tax cut by doing that
d) we aren't political and have no political clout
e) we are too busy working too many hours to do hypothetical tax simulations
f) we will continue to vote overwhelmingly Republican anyway and
g) we will just suck it up and work harder.
h) Republicans want me to pay $6500 more. Democrats want me to pay $20,000 more.
i) Henrys are dirty little dream hoarders. Let's shift the focus from top 1% and stick it to the rest of the top 20%.

Last edited by sapientia et veritas; 12-08-17 at 10:16 AM.
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  #428  
Old 12-08-17, 09:31 AM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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H) the donor class will reward them with campaign cash
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  #429  
Old 12-08-17, 11:44 AM
19AL63 19AL63 is offline
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Our Federal Govt does not have a tax problem, it has a spending problem. If the Govt quit spending and wasting money they do not have and spent what money they do have wisely think how great this country could be.
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  #430  
Old 12-08-17, 12:15 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapientia et veritas View Post
That's fake news and generalized nonsense. It's easily disproved by the maths. It doesn't account for SALT - which is a big hit for people not living in Florida, Texas, Wyoming, etc. The people who itemize and are at the top end of the ranges that drop 1% are going to get royally screwed by the elimination of SALT.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/17/how-...s-compare.html

So looking at married filing jointly as an example. If you are in the 25% bracket and below $140 in taxable income, the drop to 22% will lessen the impact. From 140K to 153K, you are only dropping from 25% to 24%. You aren't going to make it up.

All the analysis is based on a lie that fails to account for the reality of the SALT / personal exemption loss. An Ohioan who had $150k in taxable income in 2016 is probably paying $10-12K in state and local taxes, especially if working in a city that doesn't give back to non-residents (like Columbus.) Add another $1-2K if they've got a school district income tax. So total SALT of $11-14K-ish. Lets say no kids, so another $8K loss in personal exemptions. So with no change in actual income, taxable income goes up $20-$30K. What all these news reports are doing is ignoring that rise in taxable income. What they are doing is looking at the formerly $150K guy who is now at $170-180K and saying - they drop from 28% bracket to 24% bracket. So voila, magic savings.

I've run a bunch of scenarios, and it's true for a bunch of the middle brackets. Some percentage of the old bracket is going to get a massive increase. The calculations for the people who were in the 33% range in 2016 and bumped up into the what would have been 35% for 2017 are reported as getting a 3% drop.

25%, 28%, 33%, 35% people - you're going to see either a massive increase in your withholding or a big April surprise in your near future.

Amusingly the smaller company CEO / EVP / Cxx kind of dude pulling in $500K-$1M and formerly in that 39.6% bracket is dropping to 35%, and even a lot of them are going to get raped.

This whole thing is a scam. The tax system is already designed to screw the higher-end W-2 earned income folks by making them bear then bulk of the burden of taxes. People with a bunch of unearned income from investments or capital gains and those running a business all gain from this. The retired and the rich do ok. As do the middle class Reagan/Trump flexibly democrat/republican voters but slightly less so.

This entire thing is nothing but a thinly disguised massive tax increase on the upper middle class, white collar professional employees (not business owners) because the Republicans know:
a) we apply quitcherbitchin to ourselves
b) we are good patriotic Murkans who feel a sense of civic responsibility
c) we can all tap into a HELOC on April 14th if need be thinking that we're getting a bonus tax cut by doing that
d) we aren't political and have no political clout
e) we are too busy working too many hours to do hypothetical tax simulations
f) we will continue to vote overwhelmingly Republican anyway and
g) we will just suck it up and work harder.
h) Republicans want me to pay $6500 more. Democrats want me to pay $20,000 more.
i) Henrys are dirty little dream hoarders. Let's shift the focus from top 1% and stick it to the rest of the top 20%.
Sounds like someone making $150,000 a year is upset that he is being asked to pay his fair share. Lol
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  #431  
Old 12-08-17, 01:39 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19AL63 View Post
Our Federal Govt does not have a tax problem, it has a spending problem.
Not according to POTUS and Republicans.
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  #432  
Old 12-08-17, 01:58 PM
Buck_98 Buck_98 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Sounds like someone making $150,000 a year is upset that he is being asked to pay his fair share. Lol
What is a "fair share"?
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  #433  
Old 12-08-17, 02:00 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck_98 View Post
What is a "fair share"?
Something approaching the 50-70% range when the "rich" person makes My Highest Possible Lifetime Annual Income + $1 or more.
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  #434  
Old 12-08-17, 02:36 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck_98 View Post
What is a "fair share"?
Everyone should contribute 5% and no more than 20% of their income to taxes.
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  #435  
Old 12-08-17, 02:37 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by sapientia et veritas View Post
Something approaching the 50-70% range when the "rich" person makes My Highest Possible Lifetime Annual Income + $1 or more.
I've never worried about what anyone else pays as a dollar amount as long as they pay something.
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  #436  
Old 12-08-17, 02:45 PM
Buck_98 Buck_98 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
Everyone should contribute 5% and no more than 20% of their income to taxes.
I would be happy with a 15% flat tax or a national sales tax. I have never understood why middle class (and down) people think the ultra wealthy should pay half of their income just because they make more.
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  #437  
Old 12-08-17, 03:40 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck_98 View Post
What is a "fair share"?
I have no idea. I spent 8 years listening to Obama and the Dems telling everyone that the top 1% aren't paying their fair share. Now they get a break and the other 99% have to pay their fair share.
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  #438  
Old 12-08-17, 03:42 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is online now
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Originally Posted by Buck_98 View Post
I would be happy with a 15% flat tax or a national sales tax. I have never understood why middle class (and down) people think the ultra wealthy should pay half of their income just because they make more.
National Sales tax is the way to go.

Don't penalize people for earning money.
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  #439  
Old 12-08-17, 04:04 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
National Sales tax is the way to go.

Don't penalize people for earning money.
Taxing spending/taxing earnings. Tamato tomoto. Can't spend what you don't earn. Will never happen. But if it had to, it would have to start above a certain income level, or exempt essentials like food, shelter, and utilities, otherwise it is extremely regressive.

It discourages consumerism, and encourages saving, obviously. Why it wont happen in a consumer and debt driven economy. Though in the long run we would probably be better off, with less. As individuals, country and planet.
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  #440  
Old 12-08-17, 04:19 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Total consumer spending in US is $13 trillion per year.
Total federal spending is $4 trillion per year.
Total government spending (Fed, State, & Local) is $7 trillion per year.

54% sales tax covers everything. Or 24% sales tax just for feds. Problem solved. Nation of Ramen. Time to fix up the old Pinto.
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  #441  
Old 12-08-17, 05:11 PM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
Stock buybacks buys out people that wanted to sell and increases the values of individuals and cooperatives that continue to own stocks. So teachers, doctors, cops, and others that have invested their retirement funds.

Dividends of course are paid out to owners so that they can reinvest their money or buy things that they desire. Certainly a lot better use of the money than to take it from the people that earned it and redistributed to people that did nothing to earn it.
Stock repurchases also increase the value to existing remaining shareholders
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  #442  
Old 12-08-17, 05:44 PM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
You can. You may put $18000 in a 401k (24k if you are over 50)
No comment do I guess he liked my idea
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  #443  
Old 12-09-17, 06:10 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Stock repurchases also increase the value to existing remaining shareholders
I said that as well.
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  #444  
Old 12-12-17, 07:03 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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A one-page analysis (2017 TNT 237-27) by the Treasury Department claiming that the Senate tax bill, in conjunction with other changes sought by the administration, would more than pay for itself with economic growth was met by a wave of criticism and head-scratching from economists and tax observers.
"The Treasury's one-page note is a pathetic joke," complained Jason Furman of the Harvard Kennedy School. "I feel awful for the dozens of talented Treasury economists who have worked for years developing sophisticated models for dynamic analysis and dynamic scoring only to be completely shut out of this process," he speculated to Tax Analysts.
According to the December 11 summary analysis, Treasury's Office of Tax Policy modeled the revenue effect of a 2.9 percent real GDP growth rate over 10 years, relying on the same growth rate projections established in President Trump's fiscal 2018 budget (2017 TNT 99-14) proposal. That budget was proposed (2017 TNT 99-1) May 23, months before details of the House or Senate bill had been drawn up.
Assuming a 2.9 percent growth rate - 0.7 percentage points higher than the budget's baseline projection - revenues would increase $ 1.8 trillion over a decade, more than offsetting the $ 1.5 trillion static cost of the tax bill, the analysis indicated. Roughly half of that revenue increase is traced to corporate tax changes in the tax bill, while the other half is attributed to a combination of factors: changes in individual income and passthrough taxation, regulatory reform, infrastructure development, and welfare reform. The analysis also indicates that the bulk of that additional revenue would come in the latter half of the decade, after the full expensing provision expires.
"It's like the old economists' joke, if you're on a desert island, assume you have a can opener," said Mark J. Mazur of the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center (TPC). In this case, Treasury appears to have assumed 2.9 percent growth and then worked backward from there, rather than modeling a causal relationship between the details of the Senate tax bill and resulting economic growth, he explained.

"It's almost like, ‘Here's the answer we want, can you do the arithmetic for us?'" said Mazur, a former deputy assistant secretary for tax analysis in the Office of Tax Policy. Treasury's tax staff consists of "40-50 PhD economists," he said, adding, "They're not using their PhD skills for this."
Mazur also observed that the memo appeared to be "very carefully worded so that it meets the not-telling-a-falsehood standard," noting that despite purportedly being an analysis of the Senate tax bill, it never claims the growth is linked entirely to enactment of the bill.
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  #445  
Old 12-12-17, 09:48 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Here's another view on how the tax reform will trigger a boom:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/11/manu...ax-reform.html

The National Association of Manufacturers said Monday its latest quarterly CEO survey reflects historically high optimism on expectations for the passage of tax reform in Washington.

The trade group said CEO optimism — hitting a high mark in 20 years of the survey — should send a message to legislators that failure to enact the bill would be a blow to American business.

"These incredible numbers demonstrate the absolute urgency of getting tax reform signed into law because manufacturers are saying loudly and clearly that more jobs, better pay and manufacturing growth are on the horizon," said Jay Timmons, president and CEO of NAM. "This also serves as a warning to lawmakers: Fail to get this done, and American manufacturing workers will suffer the consequences of inaction."
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  #446  
Old 12-12-17, 09:56 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
No one has brought up the corporate repatriation part of this plan. I've read as much as 4 Trillion could be repatriated. That would be about 480B in revenue initially. That would also bring 3.5T in cash into the US economy in a single year. That's a heck of a jolt.
What will companies do with those funds? Pay raises? Capital investments? Dividend payouts? Or put it on pallets in a vault?
They will do all these things and more.

* They will raise dividends providing a vital cash flow increase to tens of millions of Americans who are dividend company investors. Many retires especially depend on the reliability and safety of dividend paying companies so this would be welcome news to them and the economy as a whole.

* Of course they'll put some of the money into capital improvements & expansion thereby stimulating local construction economies AND increasing the worth of their facilities. This increased worth will lead to higher local & state tax payments over time. BTW, this is something the "experts" often don't factor in to their deficit & tax receipt calculations. Anything other than DYNAMIC calculations are worthless.

* They will be stingy to give out pay increases but some will be given out in order to retain talent in an increasingly booming job market.

* And yes some of the money will be stashed away for use during bad times. Something everyone - from Corporate Lord to average person - should do.
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  #447  
Old 12-12-17, 10:09 AM
19AL63 19AL63 is offline
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From all reports I have read your taxes will either go up or down and the national debt will go up until we, the Govt get spending under control. Now if you believe Nancy, Armageddon will be on us if this passes. Other people claim you will think you have died and gone to heaven if this passes. Have I missed anything. Now the truth is from what I have read the national debt will not go up as much as when Obama held office. I guess we will have to pass it to find out what is in it or is that we will have to pass it to see if it will actually work?
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  #448  
Old 12-12-17, 10:15 AM
zeeman zeeman is offline
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From everything I've been hearing and reading, this is starting to sound like the Pubs effort to repeal the ACA. The Pubs screw this up and they are done. How stupid are these people?
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  #449  
Old 12-12-17, 11:18 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapientia et veritas View Post
Total consumer spending in US is $13 trillion per year.
Total federal spending is $4 trillion per year.
Total government spending (Fed, State, & Local) is $7 trillion per year.

54% sales tax covers everything. Or 24% sales tax just for feds. Problem solved. Nation of Ramen. Time to fix up the old Pinto.
If those numbers would actually be published, the people that pay little to nothing would scream like stuck pigs.
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  #450  
Old 12-13-17, 08:36 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Obviously you aren't going to get everything in negotitations, but the tax reform looks to be a step in the right direction. Dropping the tax rate among the weathy (which I am far from) is a good thing, why should successful people be asked to pay more than their fair share? But even bigger, dropping the corporate tax rate to 21% is great for business! Anything that is business friendly is great for spuring jobs and increasing wages.
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