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  #1321  
Old 12-03-17, 11:05 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Nothing wrong with the rule....... Lots wrong with the timing.

I don't see this being addressed (no need to in my opinion) on a national level. I hope it is addressed on the state level. however.
I don't understand what you mean by "timing"? Did the refs not follow the rule last night and the clock should have just run out?

Folks seem to be saying that the ref should have started the clock at the "ready" but wouldn't that enable a team to line up with 3 seconds left and spike the ball (it was 2nd down) preserving a FG try or the ability to take another shot at the end zone? There is no way a team should be allowed to run another play under these circumstances UNLESS the defense commits a penalty.
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  #1322  
Old 12-03-17, 11:18 AM
afwpatfire afwpatfire is offline
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The only way to fix the “timing” issue is with a run off. Other than that there is no guarantee that a referee will use the right discretion.
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  #1323  
Old 12-03-17, 11:55 AM
Reddengineer Reddengineer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I don't understand what you mean by "timing"? Did the refs not follow the rule last night and the clock should have just run out?

Folks seem to be saying that the ref should have started the clock at the "ready" but wouldn't that enable a team to line up with 3 seconds left and spike the ball (it was 2nd down) preserving a FG try or the ability to take another shot at the end zone? There is no way a team should be allowed to run another play under these circumstances UNLESS the defense commits a penalty.
Ready for play indicates readiness of officials and ball, not the teams. Now they could conceivably attempt to be lined up by the time the referee signals, which is what one would do in a two minute drill situation. Unless you're already in that mode, don't know it would work that way.
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  #1324  
Old 12-03-17, 12:40 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I don't understand what you mean by "timing"? Did the refs not follow the rule last night and the clock should have just run out?
Below is a quote from the NFHS Football Officials' Manual......


"Game officials must have a football sense which supersedes the technical
application of the rules so that the game goes smoothly. Game officials are expected to exercise good judgment in applying the rules."


This quote applies to ignoring a player in motion advancing towards the Line of Scrimmage prior to the snap when that team that team is losing 42-0 with three minutes to play.

It can be applied here as well.
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  #1325  
Old 12-03-17, 12:42 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Seems this rule is in need of a change.

Once a linemen is set, hand on the ground or not, they should remain that way.
Maybe, but that is not the rule at any level of football. It seems that you might be trying to correct a problem that does not exist.
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  #1326  
Old 12-03-17, 12:44 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afwpatfire View Post
The only way to fix the “timing” issue is with a run off. Other than that there is no guarantee that a referee will use the right discretion.
There was a rule change made this year allowing for the offended team to have the clock start on the snap after an accepted penalty if it occurred inside the last two minutes of either half.

The "run-off" penalty isn't going to happen anytime soon.


***Edited to correct copy and paste error****

Last edited by AllSports12; 12-05-17 at 10:39 PM.
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  #1327  
Old 12-03-17, 11:16 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Below is a quote from the NFHS Football Officials' Manual......


"Game officials must have a football sense which supersedes the technical
application of the rules so that the game goes smoothly. Game officials are expected to exercise good judgment in applying the rules."


This quote applies to ignoring a player in motion advancing towards the Line of Scrimmage prior to the snap when that team that team is losing 42-0 with three minutes to play.

It can be applied here as well.
In that case are we in agreement that the officials should have let the clock run out and then announce the sideline warning?

Because while the official is telling everyone it's a sideline warning the offense can do one of two things here:

* they can line up and when the ref signals "ready" hike & spike the ball or

* Hike the ball before the line is set and draw an illegal procedure or delay of game penalty which still will give them time to hike & spike after the ball is set with the penalty walk off.

So I'm fine with giving the officials the discretion here but would expect that in the off season that play will be discussed at length with officials being schooled on what discretion they should use in this type of situation.
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  #1328  
Old 12-05-17, 12:18 AM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Below is a quote from the NFHS Football Officials' Manual......


"Game officials must have a football sense which supersedes the technical
application of the rules so that the game goes smoothly. Game officials are expected to exercise good judgment in applying the rules."


This quote applies to ignoring a player in motion advancing towards the Line of Scrimmage prior to the snap when that team that team is losing 42-0 with three minutes to play.

It can be applied here as well.
This sounds like what the officials should have done. What made this more egregious is that it was only a warning. This reminded me of Jason Kidd "spilling" his drink on the court to get an extra timeout in the NBA.
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  #1329  
Old 12-05-17, 12:21 AM
coltfan76 coltfan76 is offline
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So for those that watched the debacle in Cincinnati tonight. What is the logic of not letting a team accept both a personal foul and unsportsmanlike penalty on the same play?
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  #1330  
Old 12-05-17, 06:56 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltfan76 View Post
So for those that watched the debacle in Cincinnati tonight. What is the logic of not letting a team accept both a personal foul and unsportsmanlike penalty on the same play?
NFL rules do not provide for that option on this play.
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  #1331  
Old 12-05-17, 08:12 AM
coltfan76 coltfan76 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
NFL rules do not provide for that option on this play.
I guess I wasn't clear. My apologies. Why is the rule that way? If you commit a personal foul and an unsportsmanlike on the same play, you should have to pay for both.
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  #1332  
Old 12-05-17, 11:35 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltfan76 View Post
I guess I wasn't clear. My apologies. Why is the rule that way? If you commit a personal foul and an unsportsmanlike on the same play, you should have to pay for both.
It's professional sports..... Billions of dollars are involved.

A 30 yard penalty isn't good for the offense, which isn't good for scoring, which isn't good for TV ratings, which isn't good for TV contracts, which isn't good for.... etc...

Whether or not you or I agree with it, (I would agree with you) that's the reality.

Follow the money.
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  #1333  
Old 12-05-17, 12:57 PM
TheGreenMan TheGreenMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
This sounds like what the officials should have done. What made this more egregious is that it was only a warning. This reminded me of Jason Kidd "spilling" his drink on the court to get an extra timeout in the NBA.
First sideline warning is always a warning. To cloud things even further, officials are told that if they do not enforce their sidelines they will no longer work play-off games. I have never seen anything other than you'd better enforce keeping coaches off the field and out of the white during a play.
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  #1334  
Old 12-05-17, 01:17 PM
coltfan76 coltfan76 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
It's professional sports..... Billions of dollars are involved.

A 30 yard penalty isn't good for the offense, which isn't good for scoring, which isn't good for TV ratings, which isn't good for TV contracts, which isn't good for.... etc...

Whether or not you or I agree with it, (I would agree with you) that's the reality.

Follow the money.
I assumed that. Thanks for answering.
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  #1335  
Old 12-10-17, 05:21 PM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
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Watching tape delay of West Virginia HS SSAC championship games. Just had pass interference call in the end zone on a play from the 3 or 2 yard line. The ball was moved to the 1 yard line and called as 3rd down. Thought PI in the EZ would have been an automatic first down.
Thought I'd edit this, since it occurred to me that the announcers may have called it pass interference when the real call had been defensive holding. Could that have explained the 3rd down call?
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  #1336  
Old 12-10-17, 07:00 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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PI has not been an automatic first down in HS for a few years now. EZ foul would not be any different.
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  #1337  
Old 12-10-17, 07:10 PM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
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Thanks. Didn't know that.
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  #1338  
Old 12-10-17, 11:11 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA70PP View Post
Thanks. Didn't know that.
The rule changed prior to the 2013 season.
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  #1339  
Old 12-11-17, 01:03 PM
reggieDunlop reggieDunlop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA70PP View Post
Watching tape delay of West Virginia HS SSAC championship games. Just had pass interference call in the end zone on a play from the 3 or 2 yard line. The ball was moved to the 1 yard line and called as 3rd down. Thought PI in the EZ would have been an automatic first down.
Thought I'd edit this, since it occurred to me that the announcers may have called it pass interference when the real call had been defensive holding. Could that have explained the 3rd down call?
Also DPI in the End Zone does not automatically put the ball on the 1 yard line. It is a 15-yard penalty, subject to the half the distance rule if inside the 30.
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  #1340  
Old 01-01-18, 10:24 PM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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What happens if on the third OT the team kicks the PAT. What is the penalty there? And is it a different penalty in college?
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  #1341  
Old 01-02-18, 11:21 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy27 View Post
What happens if on the third OT the team kicks the PAT. What is the penalty there? And is it a different penalty in college?
The NFHS has set recommended overtime procedures but allowed for each State Association to modify the procedures to their own specific preferences..... Neither the NFHS or OHSAA include a mandate to attempt a two point try after the first two overtime periods.

Under NCAA rules, it is not illegal to kick the ball for a try in the third overtime period and beyond. However, that team will not be awarded any points for the ball passing over the crossbar and between the uprights.

I would submit to you that in this highly unlikely situation, the ultimate penalty would be loss of a job for the Head Coach and possibly the entire staff.

Last edited by AllSports12; 01-02-18 at 12:54 PM.
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  #1342  
Old 01-03-18, 07:29 AM
TitanBall4 TitanBall4 is offline
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QB safety/Protection at the High School level

RULE CHANGE SUGGESTION- (Safety Purposes)

In the NFL & College QB's are able to "throw the ball away" if they are Outside the Tackle Box; Though the rule varies slightly from NFL to College, bottom line is that Outside the Tackle box- they have the option of intentionally throwing the ball away.

With ALL of the Concern for the safety of the players- I have No idea Why High School would NOT allow for a QB to throw the ball away outside the Tackle Box... I have seen many QB's take vicious, unneccessary hits near a sideline because they are holding onto the ball to the last second to avoid being (particularly on desinged roll out pass plays which are extremely popular now days)-

It seems to me like this is an OBVIOUS rule that is outdated and needs changed ASAP- Does this ever get reviewed or discussed?
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  #1343  
Old 01-03-18, 07:49 AM
TitanBall4 TitanBall4 is offline
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Considering Player Safety as a High priority- I believe the RULES committee needs to redo the rules on "Throwing the Ball Away". So many designed Role out pass plays - place QB's in bad position if receivers arent open- I saw an unusual amount of vicious hits near the sideline with competitive QB's staying in bounds, taking hits to avoid losing yardage- when they would throw the ball away (Outside the tackle box) if they werent going to be penalized.

This rule exists in the NFL and College to physically protect the QB- With the progression and use of the forward pass at the High School level- It is an issue of safety - seen too many situations where QB holds onto the ball, stays in bounds to avoid losing bigger yardage (While still looking for downfield) and gets hammered - If throwing it away was an option it would AVOID many vicious hits on QB's across the state of Ohio,
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  #1344  
Old 01-03-18, 11:35 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanBall4 View Post
RULE CHANGE SUGGESTION- (Safety Purposes)

In the NFL & College QB's are able to "throw the ball away" if they are Outside the Tackle Box; Though the rule varies slightly from NFL to College, bottom line is that Outside the Tackle box- they have the option of intentionally throwing the ball away.

With ALL of the Concern for the safety of the players- I have No idea Why High School would NOT allow for a QB to throw the ball away outside the Tackle Box... I have seen many QB's take vicious, unneccessary hits near a sideline because they are holding onto the ball to the last second to avoid being (particularly on desinged roll out pass plays which are extremely popular now days)-

It seems to me like this is an OBVIOUS rule that is outdated and needs changed ASAP- Does this ever get reviewed or discussed?
The only reason the NFL or the NCAA has this rule in place is........

$$ Money $$

Once the rate of injury for players at this position become disproportionate with relation to players at other positions, (and because of injuries sustained while outside the pocket) then and only then will it be seriously considered.

Right now, the problem does not exist.
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  #1345  
Old 01-03-18, 12:17 PM
TitanBall4 TitanBall4 is offline
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I respect your opinion and I agree that $$$ has a lot to do with the rule- At the same time from my experience as a volunteer holding sticks -JV, Freshman, 7th & 8th grade- I have witnessed big time hits that could easily be avoided. Think about it 3 or 4 defenders are in hot pursuit of a QB getting cornered to the sideline- he's looking downfield while sprinting to the sideline- many times that QB attempts to head up field to minimize yardage loss- the collisions are some of the biggest you'll see- they could easily be avoided- especially at the lower levels when the more inexperienced QB's lack field awareness in 7th/ 8th grade. Possibly modify or create a rule allowing a QB heading directly towards the sideline (as opposed to outside the tackle box) to throw the ball away without getting penalized- could be a good idea.
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  #1346  
Old 01-03-18, 12:53 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanBall4 View Post
I respect your opinion and I agree that $$$ has a lot to do with the rule- At the same time from my experience as a volunteer holding sticks -JV, Freshman, 7th & 8th grade- I have witnessed big time hits that could easily be avoided. Think about it 3 or 4 defenders are in hot pursuit of a QB getting cornered to the sideline- he's looking downfield while sprinting to the sideline- many times that QB attempts to head up field to minimize yardage loss- the collisions are some of the biggest you'll see- they could easily be avoided- especially at the lower levels when the more inexperienced QB's lack field awareness in 7th/ 8th grade. Possibly modify or create a rule allowing a QB heading directly towards the sideline (as opposed to outside the tackle box) to throw the ball away without getting penalized- could be a good idea.
"Big hits" are not illegal and never will be. It's an inherent part of the game.

There are rules in place to protect players in vulnerable positions. Many are due to recent changes and they are having an effect on how the game is played, (proper tackling techniques) which is the goal.

Once the data supports your assertion that the passer is injured at a higher rate because he cannot throw the ball away (nationally)..... then you will see a rule change.
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  #1347  
Old 01-03-18, 02:28 PM
TitanBall4 TitanBall4 is offline
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Good Points Made ALLSPORTS12. I agree- changes won't come until tangible data moves the needle. I still believe the QB's can and are at times left in awkward, vulnerable positions if they do not have a legal option to "throw the ball away" in a play they are far outside the pocket. I know It's a rule to promote offense in college & Pro; but in reality it's a rule that protects QB's physically; Under the "more" safety conscious rules (like crack back blocking etc.) It just seems like a logical rule change. It's not about avoiding "Big Hits"- it's rather those awkward situations a QB is left in looking down field with nothing open, unable to legally throw the ball away- forcing unnecessary contact.
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  #1348  
Old 01-03-18, 06:10 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanBall4 View Post
I still believe the QB's can and are at times left in awkward, vulnerable positions if they do not have a legal option to "throw the ball away" in a play they are far outside the pocket.
The passer has two options, pass or run. He has the same protections by rule regardless of where he is. Allowing him to throw the ball away just because he's outside the pocket is not only contrary to the rule, but contrary to the fundamental purpose of the rule, which is to maintain a competitive balance between the offense and defense. To allow him to throw the ball away and start the next down from the previous spot actually penalizes the defense for their efforts.

Please remember, the passer already has certain protections regardless of where he is on the field. And believe me, he's just as vulnerable inside the pocket as he is outside the pocket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanBall4 View Post
I know It's a rule to promote offense
In the NFL it's about protecting the multi-millions the teams have invested in their QB. In the NCAA, it's about protecting one of the precious 85 scholarships that is tied to a vital position on that team.
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  #1349  
Old 01-03-18, 07:14 PM
TitanBall4 TitanBall4 is offline
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I really do agree with exactly everything you are saying ALLSPORTS12 - based on what I see on the field, and where the game is headed regarding "safety" I wouldnt be surprised if this rule is changed within the next 3 to 5 years for High School
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  #1350  
Old 01-03-18, 08:23 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanBall4 View Post
I really do agree with exactly everything you are saying ALLSPORTS12 - based on what I see on the field, and where the game is headed regarding "safety" I wouldnt be surprised if this rule is changed within the next 3 to 5 years for High School
It was raised as a possibility about 7 years ago. It died immediately as there was no supporting data to justify the change.

As I said prior, when this truly becomes a safety issue, it will be addressed, just as illegal contact on defenseless players was addressed.

Currently, it's not an issue.

It's time to move on to another subject........
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